Liverpool FC Team Talk, Gossip, Rumours 2020/2021

~Rebel~ · 24-02-2021 6:09pm

Girly Gal wrote: »

He rarely plays 90 mins even when there hasn't been internationals for awhile, he still gets injured, he's been at the club for 3 seasons and only played about 50 matches ( very few full 90 minutes), some players play that in one season. It's not all down to international duty, he's similar to Matip (who has no international duty) in that he can't play many consecutive matches without picking up injuries.

No, it's not all down to international duty, but that is a major stumbling block.

I mean, we all know how big proper recovery plans are for football now, and it's allowing players who previously would have been sick-notes to now have good careers. He's one of those - he is injury prone, that's the reality. If you have control over him, then you can wring the most out of him - play him when he's able, rest him when he needs, and be always watching and assessing so you get a lot more games out of him at a high level.

The international duty point is that it's a regularly occurring wildcard in which he will play every minute of every game, regardless of the clubs position on his health. I mean, as you point out, he's not a player who should be playing 90 minutes consecutively if you can avoid it - and that's fine, you can mitigate against that, and get all the benefit of a terrific player by doing so. Which is why the internationals doing the exact opposite is a problem. There is zero coincidence that he played in all 9 of our games after the restart last season, because he could be managed, and there were no international breaks to interfere with the clubs plans.

yourdeadwright · 24-02-2021 6:12pm

Augeo wrote: »

I'd class Mo as nothing but a striker tbh................ he's no Ian Rush or a target man obviously but the vast majority of his goals are from inside the box and he scores plenty.

I wouldn't disagree about his goals but id call him an attacker or forward the same as Mane,

When I say striker I means someone who plays down the middle a proper number 9 , occupies the two CB's and gets goals ,

~Rebel~ · 24-02-2021 6:24pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Didn't we play a 4 4 2 with the all starting away to City ?

2-3-1 doesn't really work well because we have no real number 9 ,
Which is ability crazy given Klopp's here 6 years and we are yet to have a proper striker even as back up , He is actually yet to buy a single striker how has that even happened ,

Origi is a striker. How little he plays is I think kinda the answer to why Klopp's not bought another... it just doesn't fit how he wants to play. I'm not sure I see that changing, as players like Jota are a better fit, in that they can play in multiple areas well.

I've seen calls for him to buy a proper number 9 to be a poacher, but the whole point of his wide-forward style is that there isn't a number 9 there standing in the way causing more congestion in a tight area. We could play a 9, but it would likely lead to us getting less goals from Mo and Mane, so they'd need to be scoring a huge amount themselves to make up for it. Our CF's job is to move the defence enough to open space for the others - but we do need someone doing that who is also scoring at a better rate than Bobby. Tough to find that though... Benzema was pretty much the prototype of that style, scoring lots, but also doing the work to free space for Ronaldo. Not a lot of Bobby's/Benzema's out there!

Harry Palmr · 24-02-2021 6:24pm

Given Lewandowski is very much a No 9 and he signed Immobile as one (unsuccessfully) it's curious he hasn't sought one both Origi and Ings were already signed.

~Rebel~ · 24-02-2021 6:33pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Given Lewandowski is very much a No 9 and he signed Immobile as one (unsuccessfully) it's curious he hasn't sought one both Origi and Ings were already signed.

Just different systems I guess... He started playing with a 9 in his first season, Origi being up top as a central striker, playing completely differently than we do now. Remember those goals against Dortmund.

But I suppose once Mane came in, and showed how effectively wide forwards worked with him right and Coutinho left, and Bobby central, the system kinda stuck. Mo came in and elevated the whole thing again, and it's probably hard to start going down a different route when something is working so well.

A proper 9, as nice as it is to have, would spend most of their time on the bench, so it makes more sense to get more versatile guys like Jota who can do a bit of everything, and give you options.

atilladehun · 24-02-2021 7:13pm

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Just different systems I guess... He started playing with a 9 in his first season, Origi being up top as a central striker, playing completely differently than we do now. Remember those goals against Dortmund.

But I suppose once Mane came in, and showed how effectively wide forwards worked with him right and Coutinho left, and Bobby central, the system kinda stuck. Mo came in and elevated the whole thing again, and it's probably hard to start going down a different route when something is working so well.

A proper 9, as nice as it is to have, would spend most of their time on the bench, so it makes more sense to get more versatile guys like Jota who can do a bit of everything, and give you options.

I can see an evolution to a number 9 being a possibility. It'll be harder to recreate Bobby when he's done. A 4231 with a brilliant striker occupying the centre backs.

Agent Coulson · 24-02-2021 7:16pm

Well I always though myself when Thiago was brought in Klopp would evolve the team into a 4231 system over the course of the season.

All the injuries put paid to that this season.

24-02-2021 7:44pm

~Rebel~ wrote: »

..... There is zero coincidence that he played in all 9 of our games after the restart last season, because he could be managed, and there were no international breaks to interfere with the clubs plans.

Of course it could be coincidence.

Girly Gal · 24-02-2021 7:45pm

~Rebel~ wrote: »

No, it's not all down to international duty, but that is a major stumbling block.

I mean, we all know how big proper recovery plans are for football now, and it's allowing players who previously would have been sick-notes to now have good careers. He's one of those - he is injury prone, that's the reality. If you have control over him, then you can wring the most out of him - play him when he's able, rest him when he needs, and be always watching and assessing so you get a lot more games out of him at a high level.

The international duty point is that it's a regularly occurring wildcard in which he will play every minute of every game, regardless of the clubs position on his health. I mean, as you point out, he's not a player who should be playing 90 minutes consecutively if you can avoid it - and that's fine, you can mitigate against that, and get all the benefit of a terrific player by doing so. Which is why the internationals doing the exact opposite is a problem. There is zero coincidence that he played in all 9 of our games after the restart last season, because he could be managed, and there were no international breaks to interfere with the clubs plans.

There's really not much point in having a player who can't complete 90 minutes on a consistent basis, that's fair enough for young players starting out or players coming towards the end of their career like Milner, but, for players in their prime not be able to complete 90 minutes consistently even when fit is really poor, also it limits the options open to the manager for bringing on players as, one sub is used up, the opposition manager also knows this and can set up accordingly. I'd be willing to overlook this if it meant he was available for most of the season, but, the reality is he is generally unavailable more often than not.

The White Wolf · 24-02-2021 7:56pm

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Well I always though myself when Thiago was brought in Klopp would evolve the team into a 4231 system over the course of the season.

All the injuries put paid to that this season.

What's the worst 4231 could look like even with all the injuries.

We might as well try it.

Fab Thiago

Mane Gini Jota

Salah

Not half bad putting it mildly. Then you have Jones, Chamberlain, Keita (cough), Shaqiri and Firmino who can be thrown in and out.

~Rebel~ · 24-02-2021 8:18pm

Girly Gal wrote: »

There's really not much point in having a player who can't complete 90 minutes on a consistent basis, that's fair enough for young players starting out or players coming towards the end of their career like Milner, but, for players in their prime not be able to complete 90 minutes consistently even when fit is really poor, also it limits the options open to the manager for bringing on players as, one sub is used up, the opposition manager also knows this and can set up accordingly. I'd be willing to overlook this if it meant he was available for most of the season, but, the reality is he is generally unavailable more often than not.

Feels like we're just going round in circles in a general Naby bashing/supporting cycle.

Stuff like the 90 minute thing doesn't both me at all if his fitness is up there to be able to play week in week out beyond that. He offers more than enough in the 70-80 minutes to make up for it. Think you're pushing the significance of that beyond its real world impact.

But of course all of this is moot if he keeps getting injured as much as he has. That has to be fixed, first and foremost, and if it can't be, then he needs to be replaced. There's a bit of hope, in that it's not something he struggled with earlier in his career - it's only become a problem since he joined Liverpool (and he also played 90 minutes far far more often for RB). So I have a bit of positivity that proper muscular reinforcement may help to limit the frequency and severity of his injuries. Sure fingers crossed and we'll see.

TitianGerm · 24-02-2021 8:40pm

https://twitter.com/petemotz/status/1363464738391351305?s=19

Interesting graph here. Thiago the most progressive passer in the league and Jones with the most progressive carries. Both per 90 minutes.

Girly Gal · 24-02-2021 8:43pm

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Feels like we're just going round in circles in a general Naby bashing/supporting cycle.

Stuff like the 90 minute thing doesn't both me at all if his fitness is up there to be able to play week in week out beyond that. He offers more than enough in the 70-80 minutes to make up for it. Think you're pushing the significance of that beyond its real world impact.

But of course all of this is moot if he keeps getting injured as much as he has. That has to be fixed, first and foremost, and if it can't be, then he needs to be replaced. There's a bit of hope, in that it's not something he struggled with earlier in his career - it's only become a problem since he joined Liverpool (and he also played 90 minutes far far more often for RB). So I have a bit of positivity that proper muscular reinforcement may help to limit the frequency and severity of his injuries. Sure fingers crossed and we'll see.

I'm not really questioning his ability, it's his availability that's the real problem, as I said if he was available most of the time I'd put up with him not doing 90 minutes, but, the fact that he's rarely available is the problem, at some point the question has to be asked is he worth keeping if he's rarely available to play, don't think that's an unreasonable question to ask, I'd apply the same to any player not just Keita.

Fitz* · 24-02-2021 9:11pm

Girly Gal wrote: »

I'm not really questioning his ability, it's his availability that's the real problem, as I said if he was available most of the time I'd put up with him not doing 90 minutes, but, the fact that he's rarely available is the problem, at some point the question has to be asked is he worth keeping if he's rarely available to play, don't think that's an unreasonable question to ask, I'd apply the same to any player not just Keita.

This season has been his worst season yet in terms of injuries - almost missing the same number of games this season as the previous two combined. To be fair, the same can probably be said for a lot of players with the increase in muscle injuries, not just Keita.

Roughly speaking, during Keita's time at the club, he has started 30% of games, been injured in 30% of games and the other games, he has been either appeared as a sub or sat on the bench.

So over the course of his Liverpool career, he has been available for roughly 60% of games. What is an acceptable level to be available for? 75%? It's not exactly a massive jump.

But, what does need to be a jump in is number of games he is fit enough to start in. I think Klopp won't start him unless he feels he is properly sharp and holds him back somewhat so that 30% figure is a more true figure. If he could his match start fitness up to 55%+, he will be a hell of a player and a proper addition to the first team squad.

If he can get a run of games in of 70, 70 ,10 , 70 , 0, 70, then I will be very happy tbh.

TitianGerm · 24-02-2021 9:20pm

Fitz* wrote: »

This season has been his worst season yet in terms of injuries - almost missing the same number of games this season as the previous two combined. To be fair, the same can probably be said for a lot of players with the increase in muscle injuries, not just Keita.

Roughly speaking, during Keita's time at the club, he has started 30% of games, been injured in 30% of games and the other games, he has been either appeared as a sub or sat on the bench.

So over the course of his Liverpool career, he has been available for roughly 60% of games. What is an acceptable level to be available for? 75%? It's not exactly a massive jump.

But, what does need to be a jump in is number of games he is fit enough to start in. I think Klopp won't start him unless he feels he is properly sharp and holds him back somewhat so that 30% figure is a more true figure. If he could his match start fitness up to 55%+, he will be a hell of a player and a proper addition to the first team squad.

If he can get a run of games in of 70, 70 ,10 , 70 , 0, 70, then I will be very happy tbh.

For our game and the players we have this season ideally you want your players available for 2.5 to 3 games out of 4. That allows you to freshen up at least one midfield player every game and take another off at 60 minutes.

Imagine having the ability to play something like Fabhino, Thiago and Henderson. Take Henderson off at 60 minutes and bring on Jones.
Then the next game you go Fabhino, Henderson and Kieta. Take Fabhino off at 60 minutes for Milner.
Next game you go Henderson, Thiago, Kieta. Kieta off after 60 for Jones.
Next game you have Kieta, Fabhino and Jones. Thiago on for Kieta after 60 minutes.

By doing something along those lines you'd get a hell of a lot more from the midfielders than this season which sees the same three or four players in there every week.

Agent Coulson · 24-02-2021 9:22pm

TitianGerm wrote: »

For our game and the players we have this season ideally you want your players available for 2.5 to 3 games out of 4. That allows you to freshen up at least one midfield player every game and take another off at 60 minutes.

Imagine having the ability to play something like Fabhino, Thiago and Henderson. Take Henderson off at 60 minutes and bring on Jones.
Then the next game you go Fabhino, Henderson and Kieta. Take Fabhino off at 60 minutes for Milner.
Next game you go Henderson, Thiago, Kieta. Kieta off after 60 for Jones.
Next game you have Kieta, Fabhino and Jones. Thiago on for Kieta after 60 minutes.

By doing something along those lines you'd get a hell of a lot more from the midfielders than this season which sees the same three or four players in there every week.

I would say that would have been the idea this season until everything went pear-shaped and the Fab and Hendo had to play CB.

Jota would have been used to give Bobby, Mane & Salah a break as well.

Injuries really have messed everything up.

TitianGerm · 24-02-2021 9:25pm

Agent Coulson wrote: »

I would say that would have been the idea this season until everything went pear-shaped and the Fab and Hendo had to play CB.

Exactly. The CMs we have available are dead on their legs at the moment. Because they're playing full games most weeks and more games in a shorter period of time they've no time to recover.

Agent Coulson · 24-02-2021 9:28pm

TitianGerm wrote: »

Exactly. The CMs we have available are dead on their legs at the moment. Because they're playing full games most weeks and more games in a shorter period of time they've no time to recover.

I think one good thing will come out of this season is Jones will have learned so much playing beside Thiago a lot more than he would have expected to have.

Agent Coulson · 24-02-2021 9:30pm

Elliott scores for Blackburn.

Link added a decent strike

https://streamja.com/ZJQyO

Fitz* · 24-02-2021 9:30pm

Yep for sure that was the plan in place IMO.

Even looking at the first game of the season, Hendo Keita Gini started. Jones, Fabinho & Milner on the bench. Keita only played 60 with Fabinho coming in, Hendo played 65 and Jones came on ahead of Milner which was a great show of faith.

Next time out Thiago & Milner are coming off of the bench. Again, earlish subs on 45 and 65 albeit one enforced and tactics directed with the sending off.

Constant rotation. Even the Everton game had Gini on the bench for a break.

PhuckHugh · 24-02-2021 10:35pm

TitianGerm wrote: »

https://twitter.com/petemotz/status/1363464738391351305?s=19

Interesting graph here. Thiago the most progressive passer in the league and Jones with the most progressive carries. Both per 90 minutes.

I hadn't seen your wonderful stats/graph but I said here yesterday a midfield/ forward of below would be well worth a try going forward.

fab

Thiago

Jones

Naby

----jota -- Salah---

garra · 25-02-2021 1:01am

See you in September folks

25-02-2021 1:16am

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Elliott scores for Blackburn.

Link added a decent strike

https://streamja.com/ZJQyO

Loving the auld mid-90s South American head on him

Shanee. · 25-02-2021 5:09am

[Lacerda] José Becker, Alisson's father, is missing after diving into a river in Brazil
https://twitter.com/reporterlacerda/status/1364742128153296896

UPDATE: Found dead apparently. So sad, thoughts with Alisson and family

Zak Flaps · 25-02-2021 5:47am

Oh no, that's truly dreadful news.
Poor Alisson. What an awful thing to happen to the family.
RIP

magma69 · 25-02-2021 5:55am

Jesus that's awful about Alisson's auld lad. Puts it all into perspective, this football lark isn't all that important. RIP.

25-02-2021 8:27am

Oh my, tragic

Agent Coulson · 25-02-2021 8:36am

Terribly sad news.

cj maxx · 25-02-2021 8:53am

RIP. Does that mean Kelleher is no 1 for a while ?

fyfe79 · 25-02-2021 9:08am

Wow, absolutely mental news. So sorry for the lad and his family.

Also makes you wonder if he was aware of things not being right with his family back in Brazil recently and if that's been affecting his performances.

Riesen_Meal · 25-02-2021 9:08am

cj maxx wrote: »

RIP. Does that mean Kelleher is no 1 for a while ?

Don't really think it matters at this stage, let's give Ali the time he needs, season is over anyway...

rob316 · 25-02-2021 9:14am

Oh my god that's awful news the poor lad.

yourdeadwright · 25-02-2021 9:31am

Thats very sad news for Allison and the family

rob316 · 25-02-2021 9:40am

cj maxx wrote: »

RIP. Does that mean Kelleher is no 1 for a while ?

Honestly who cares. That will be up to Ali anyway

yourdeadwright · 25-02-2021 9:43am

He probably wont be able to travel to the funeral

Grayditch · 25-02-2021 9:46am

That's awful. Far too young.

Bobeagleburger · 25-02-2021 9:51am

cj maxx wrote: »

RIP. Does that mean Kelleher is no 1 for a while ?

I'd say so.

Knex* · 25-02-2021 10:01am

**** me, that could have a massive impact on the lad. Hope the support around him is pretty strong.

ShamoBuc · 25-02-2021 10:05am

Dreadful news.
Death is never convenient but in the current circumstances it must be truly devastating with the travel restrictions for family and friends.

Agent Coulson · 25-02-2021 10:06am

The Brazilians have always felt like they are very close and they all have strong belief in their faith so I'm sure they will all pull together for him.

corcaigh07 · 25-02-2021 10:14am

Tragic news. Hopefully, he gets as much time off as he needs.

This season is such a write off for LFC in so many ways.

25-02-2021 10:21am

fyfe79 wrote: »

Wow, absolutely mental news. So sorry for the lad and his family.

Also makes you wonder if he was aware of things not being right with his family back in Brazil recently and if that's been affecting his performances.

Reports suggest it was a swimming accident, on a holiday home.
I'd not be jumping to any conclusions that stray too far from that tbh.

fyfe79 · 25-02-2021 10:37am

Augeo wrote: »

Reports suggest it was a swimming accident, on a holiday home.
I'd not be jumping to any conclusions that stray too far from that tbh.

Fair point. My partner's cousin took her own life in the river a fortnight ago so that was on my mind when I heard the news.

kingshankly · 25-02-2021 10:50am

cj maxx wrote: »

RIP. Does that mean Kelleher is no 1 for a while ?

A touch insensitive maybe 🙈

yourdeadwright · 25-02-2021 10:58am

cj maxx wrote: »

RIP. Does that mean Kelleher is no 1 for a while ?

If Alisson is able to travel home he would have to do two weeks quarantine on arrival and then two weeks when he returns to the uk so id imagine so ,

I know Brazil have suspended all incoming flights from the Uk so not sure if he can get home

citytillidie · 25-02-2021 11:05am

I am guessing it will be the same situation as Klopp who was unable to travel to Germany because of travel restrictions if Brazil have stopped all flights from the UK

Widdensushi · 25-02-2021 11:10am

fyfe79 wrote: »

Wow, absolutely mental news. So sorry for the lad and his family.

Also makes you wonder if he was aware of things not being right with his family back in Brazil recently and if that's been affecting his performances.

Mod edit: not appropriate

yourdeadwright · 25-02-2021 11:10am

citytillidie wrote: »

I am guessing it will be the same situation as Klopp who was unable to travel to Germany because of travel restrictions if Brazil have stopped all flights from the UK

I think Klopp could have travelled but didn't because of the quarantine (4 weeks) ?

Also the question of how many are allowed at a funeral in Brazil

Not that it matter the lad should take as long as he likes ,

yourdeadwright · 25-02-2021 11:19am

Good goal from young Elliot for Blackburn last night ,
Very tidy finish on his bad foot

Fitz* · 25-02-2021 11:23am

Very upsetting for Alisson, moreso because he can't attend the funeral or be with his family at this time.

Liverpool FC Team Talk, Gossip, Rumours 2020/2021

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