Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

Bass Reeves · 05-05-2020 11:21am

Some frightening stasticd from the FI today. So far this year there had been 50k extra dairy calf's registered, 15K extra suckler's calves registered. So far exports are down by 33k and expected to be down 50-60k before year's end. 120k extra beef cattle in the system for 2022 compared to this year.

Dozer1 · 05-05-2020 12:27pm

Saw that alright,
but surly if one hopes there will be an end to restrictions in 2021 and there will be a huge amount of global sporting occasions on will there not be an unprecedented demand.

the eternal optimist in me thinks there will have to be at some stage.

Grueller · 05-05-2020 1:32pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Some frightening stasticd from the FI today. So far this year there had been 50k extra dairy calf's registered, 15K extra suckler's calves registered. So far exports are down by 33k and expected to be down 50-60k before year's end. 120k extra beef cattle in the system for 2022 compared to this year.

The 15k sucklers I would think are down to lads doing a combination of things. Autumn calving sucklers are dying out fast around here so lads are carrying a few extra spring calvers. The Autumn calvers will die altogether imo when lads exit the bdgp scheme this fall and a lot of cows will go on the hook. Also as lads are tightening up suckler numbers they are getting rid of late calvers so that may even out as the next 2 months or so pass.

K.G. · 05-05-2020 3:19pm

Coming to the end of the calves here now and no bother selling them but just a bit slower.roughly 35 %exported and there seems to be a nice few lads looking for calves locally

Siamsa Sessions · 07-05-2020 9:41pm

Anyone here put a BB bull on crossbreed cows?

Would the calves be anyway decent?

wrangler · 07-05-2020 10:12pm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Anyone here put a BB bull on crossbreed cows?

Would the calves be anyway decent?

I see my neighbour, first year milking, with a BB bull with his crossbreds this week.
He always bred exceptional sucklers so will be interesting

Siamsa Sessions · 08-05-2020 8:34am

wrangler wrote: »

I see my neighbour, first year milking, with a BB bull with his crossbreds this week.
He always bred exceptional sucklers so will be interesting

Thanks - it seems to an interesting mix. From extreme milk on one side to extreme beef on the other.

Maybe like crossing a 100kg Texel ram with a 50kg mountainy ewe. But I don’t know if mountainy ewes are that milky!

Mooooo · 08-05-2020 9:23am

Went to a pure jersey herd herd in the UK. Sexed jersey used on heifers with his pedigree limos cleaning up on them and ai BB on the cow's. Apparently the BB was then only calf of them they could consistently sell. Mind you there were a share of cow's in the straw beds as opposed to the cubicles as well which suggests they didn't exactly pop them out

Jjameson · 08-05-2020 10:08am

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Thanks - it seems to an interesting mix. From extreme milk on one side to extreme beef on the other.

Maybe like crossing a 100kg Texel ram with a 50kg mountainy ewe. But I don’t know if mountainy ewes are that milky!

Nothing like a mountain ewe to milk

Castlekeeper · 10-05-2020 7:06am

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Thanks - it seems to an interesting mix. From extreme milk on one side to extreme beef on the other.

Maybe like crossing a 100kg Texel ram with a 50kg mountainy ewe. But I don’t know if mountainy ewes are that milky!

Goldilock's calves,
They can be too big, too small, or just right. You need to know your bull and your cow, and hope for the best of course.

Bass Reeves · 05-06-2020 4:43pm

Cullinan and the IFA are questioning how c Friesian calves will be allowed PGI and grass fed status and because young bulls will be excluded. What part of f@@king grass fed dose he not understand.

It interesting that they are already lobbying for intensive finisher's who got caught by CKVID(f@@k the rest of us) and I am sure they will be on looking for money for tillage lads especially those that intensively feed cattle.

Base price · 05-06-2020 5:04pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Cullinan and the IFA are questioning how c Friesian calves will be allowed PGI and grass fed status and because young bulls will be excluded. What part of f@@king grass fed dose he not understand.

It interesting that they are already lobbying for intensive finisher's who got caught by CKVID(f@@k the rest of us) and I am sure they will be on looking for money for tillage lads especially those that intensively feed cattle.

Yet Bord Bia promote FR bullock as the ideal carcass for the supermarket trade. If the IFA get away with excluding FR cattle it will result in a price collapse for the calf making them near worthless. I presume it would suit the factories as they can get even cheaper beef that is suitable for their contracts.

grassroot1 · 05-06-2020 5:22pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Cullinan and the IFA are questioning how c Friesian calves will be allowed PGI and grass fed status and because young bulls will be excluded. What part of f@@king grass fed dose he not understand.

It interesting that they are already lobbying for intensive finisher's who got caught by CKVID(f@@k the rest of us) and I am sure they will be on looking for money for tillage lads especially those that intensively feed cattle.

The PGI that was promised was specifically for grass fed suckler beef. I dont doubt that fresian steer beef needs help but it was promised for suckler beef.

Bass Reeves · 05-06-2020 5:41pm

grassroot1 wrote: »

The PGI that was promised was specifically for grass fed suckler beef. I dont doubt that fresian steer beef needs help but it was promised for suckler beef.

And Suckler beef if grass can still qualify but IFA is on about bulls ( and I say intensively feed beef) are excluded. This would be a huge advantage to lads finish on silage and low meal levels for the winter, and on grass for the summer.

wrangler · 05-06-2020 6:23pm

Base price wrote: »

Yet Bord Bia promote FR bullock as the ideal carcass for the supermarket trade. If the IFA get away with excluding FR cattle it will result in a price collapse for the calf making them near worthless. I presume it would suit the factories as they can get even cheaper beef that is suitable for their contracts.

It wouldn't have a PGI that suckler beef would have, the friesian image certainly doesn't complement the image of suckler beef which was the initial target.
It'd be like advertising connemara lamb and supplying lowland lambs old ewes, no comparison

Farmers should be allowed use bulls but it's unlikely to be succesful, but let the farmers find that out for themselves.
Seriously, if we do get a PGI for suckler beef we shouldn't be trying to dilute it with friesian beef

Bass Reeves · 05-06-2020 6:25pm

wrangler wrote: »

It wouldn't have a PGI that suckler beef would have, the friesian image certainly doesn't complement the image of suckler beef which was the initial target.
It'd be like advertising connemara lamb and supplying lowland lambs old ewes, no comparison
Farmers should be allowed use bulls but it's unlikely to be succesful, but let the farmers find that out for themselves.
Seriously, if we do get a PGI for suckler beef we shouldn't be trying to dilute it with friesian beef

rubbish

Siamsa Sessions · 05-06-2020 9:13pm

Very hard to see PGI status being granted to a whole country for such a product with huge variety - even it was suckler only beef.

I thought the whole idea was that a product came from a region or was very specific. And the criteria was very strict. Low criteria = no premium.

Has anyone done the figures to see how many animals would meet the criteria?

Bass Reeves · 06-06-2020 12:54am

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Very hard to see PGI status being granted to a whole country for such a product with huge variety - even it was suckler only beef.

I thought the whole idea was that a product came from a region or was very specific. And the criteria was very strict. Low criteria = no premium.

Has anyone done the figures to see how many animals would meet the criteria?

There will be a tug of war here. PGI is not critical what is more important is to have a proper grass fed status for cattle. Over the last 10 years every processor, supermarket, burger provider and restaurant proceeded to show nice photo's of a farmer with cattle in a field eating grass.......and then proceeding to buy feedlot produced beef. It has improvished smaller farmers who actually produce the product and received 15-20c/kg less for there cattle.

The fear for intensive finishers using, cereals, beet and maize is that there beef will be allowed to show this new logo now.

Siamsa Sessions · 06-06-2020 9:14am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There will be a tug of war here. PGI is not critical what is more important is to have a proper grass fed status for cattle. Over the last 10 years every processor, supermarket, burger provider and restaurant proceeded to show nice photo's of a farmer with cattle in a field eating grass.......and then proceeding to buy feedlot produced beef. It has improvished smaller farmers who actually produce the product and received 15-20c/kg less for there cattle.

The fear for intensive finishers using, cereals, beet and maize is that there beef will be allowed to show this new logo now.

It has the potential to get very political and set farmers against each other. This will suit the BS merchants in retail who will gain from the marketing material any PGI or similar scheme will give them.

By definition, if someone wins then someone else has to lose in this type of scheme. And it’s unlikely to be a fair fight.

The more you think about it, the more issues crop up: Will the extra work for farmers be like the Bord Bia QA scheme? Will consumers care one way or the other? Will the Chinese care? Can up to 500,000 animals per year still be considered a niche product? Will the Bord Bia label be diluted with such a new scheme/label? Will the suits in Bord Bia accept their demotion? Etc etc etc

Bass Reeves · 06-06-2020 9:37am

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

It has the potential to get very political and set farmers against each other. This will suit the BS merchants in retail who will gain from the marketing material any PGI or similar scheme will give them.

By definition, if someone wins then someone else has to lose in this type of scheme. And it’s unlikely to be a fair fight.

The more you think about it, the more issues crop up: Will the extra work for farmers be like the Bord Bia QA scheme? Will consumers care one way or the other? Will the Chinese care? Can up to 500,000 animals per year still be considered a niche product? Will the Bord Bia label be diluted with such a new scheme/label? Will the suits in Bord Bia accept their demotion? Etc etc etc

TBF I would not really be too worried about PGI. It is unlikly that 500K animals a year could be considered a niche however if the product is correct it could have a premium price. Kerrygold butter is a case in point. However the last thing we want is another generic product. Processors and retailers would be happy with that.

It is not about winners and losers but it is about setting a standard. Processors will want the standards set as low as possible and for feedlot cattle to be included. So what exactly should the rules be for grass fed beef. We work in an industry where over the last 5 years 50-80 day finishing has taken up a lot of the sector.

Should a grass fed logo cattle have to been on the last farm for 150+ days. If its grass fed should there be a limit on ration feed and should this differ slightly from winter to summer. The key word is slightly. Would 200kgs/head be an acceptable limit for summer finished cattle and 500/head for winter fed cattle. This would provide technical challenges to farmers but these feed levels are attainable and lower levels are attainable for summer finishing. What sort of a bonus payment should be in place and should there be higher bonus's for certain times of year. Should age limits be slightly more flexible but concentrate on carcasse weights. Should there be contract pricing if year around supply is needed.

12 months ago I had a few Shorthorn cattle. I saw there was a SH scheme and contacted it. It informed me of the processor and unit doing it and I gave them a date when the cattle would be finished 5-6 week on. He told me the processor would contact me. Coming up on the 5 weeks I had heard nothing and contacted the scheme promoter again. He was surprised that the processor was not on to me, and said he would get them to contact me. About 2-3 days later a procurement manager got onto me, ya they were interest in the cattle and could book them in for 3ish weeks further on. No they would not quote me a price. I said goodbye and got them killed as ordinary cattle elsewhere. Talking to the promoter elsewhere it seems that the processors were pulling SH cattle out of there own feedlots to fill what was a small contract. It was mainly being sold in Belgium. Of course the photo's showed Shorthorn cattle grazing on nice green fields.

wrangler · 06-06-2020 11:56am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

TBF I would not really be too worried about PGI. It is unlikly that 500K animals a year could be considered a niche however if the product is correct it could have a premium price. Kerrygold butter is a case in point. However the last thing we want is another generic product. Processors and retailers would be happy with that.

It is not about winners and losers but it is about setting a standard. Processors will want the standards set as low as possible and for feedlot cattle to be included. So what exactly should the rules be for grass fed beef. We work in an industry where over the last 5 years 50-80 day finishing has taken up a lot of the sector.

Should a grass fed logo cattle have to been on the last farm for 150+ days. If its grass fed should there be a limit on ration feed and should this differ slightly from winter to summer. The key word is slightly. Would 200kgs/head be an acceptable limit for summer finished cattle and 500/head for winter fed cattle. This would provide technical challenges to farmers but these feed levels are attainable and lower levels are attainable for summer finishing. What sort of a bonus payment should be in place and should there be higher bonus's for certain times of year. Should age limits be slightly more flexible but concentrate on carcasse weights. Should there be contract pricing if year around supply is needed.

12 months ago I had a few Shorthorn cattle. I saw there was a SH scheme and contacted it. It informed me of the processor and unit doing it and I gave them a date when the cattle would be finished 5-6 week on. He told me the processor would contact me. Coming up on the 5 weeks I had heard nothing and contacted the scheme promoter again. He was surprised that the processor was not on to me, and said he would get them to contact me. About 2-3 days later a procurement manager got onto me, ya they were interest in the cattle and could book them in for 3ish weeks further on. No they would not quote me a price. I said goodbye and got them killed as ordinary cattle elsewhere. Talking to the promoter elsewhere it seems that the processors were pulling SH cattle out of there own feedlots to fill what was a small contract. It was mainly being sold in Belgium. Of course the photo's showed Shorthorn cattle grazing on nice green fields.

To allow any cereal would leave it impossible to police. once the cereals were on the farm the rules are open to abuse
With or without evidence the whinge would be that the processors were labelling feedlot beef as grassfed beef before the scheme would even start..

Mooooo · 06-06-2020 12:30pm

Tbh to push a properly grassfed system age limits would have to increase and that would then come against whatever crowd came up with the idea that killing stock younger is environmentally better, even tho it requires feeding more meal.....

Buford T. Justice XIX · 06-06-2020 1:29pm

wrangler wrote: »

To allow any cereal would leave it impossible to police. once the cereals were on the farm the rules are open to abuse
With or without evidence the whinge would be that the processors were labelling feedlot beef as grassfed beef before the scheme would even start..

Cereals are the seeds of grass varieties, wrangler, so feeding cereals, especially Irish cereals, would be totally within the definition of grass fed.

It's just a later fed form of grass.

20silkcut · 06-06-2020 1:33pm

Mooooo wrote: »

Tbh to push a properly grassfed system age limits would have to increase and that would then come against whatever crowd came up with the idea that killing stock younger is environmentally better, even tho it requires feeding more meal.....

Whatever happens nothing will ever favour the low input grass only farmer there are too many vested interests with their snout in the trough to ever allow such farming to flourish. Even the organic scheme is now nearly impossible to get into. You must pay and pay through the nose if you want to farm. Having land is not enough.

wrangler · 06-06-2020 2:07pm

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Cereals are the seeds of grass varieties, wrangler, so feeding cereals, especially Irish cereals, would be totally within the definition of grass fed.

It's just a later fed form of grass.

The dreaded feedlots

would have no problem complying if cereals are considered grass fed

farawaygrass · 06-06-2020 2:24pm

It’s ridiculous at the moment that gm crops and all that are banned in Aurora but check a meal label and they are usually included. It would be great if cereals had to come from Irish farms. It would help everyone along.

Bass Reeves · 06-06-2020 3:16pm

farawaygrass wrote: »

It’s ridiculous at the moment that gm crops and all that are banned in Aurora but check a meal label and they are usually included. It would be great if cereals had to come from Irish farms. It would help everyone along.

There is no profit for beef farmers in feeding cereals at present prices. A kg of beef off grass is sub 2/kg to producers, out of a feedlot it 3-4/kg depending on breed and whetHer they are bulls or bullocks. Add in the fact that most smaller producer are paying anything from 20-60 euro/ ton more than more intensive farmers and allowing too much cereals will negate any benefit of a grass fed premium. It immaterial whether it Irish, Dutch or Brazilian cereals beef of them is not cost effective

charolais0153 · 06-06-2020 5:41pm

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Cereals are the seeds of grass varieties, wrangler, so feeding cereals, especially Irish cereals, would be totally within the definition of grass fed.

It's just a later fed form of grass.

:O gm soya bean meal, gm maize and gm soya hulls would all disappear

Buford T. Justice XIX · 06-06-2020 7:31pm

charolais0153 wrote: »

:O gm soya bean meal, gm maize and gm soya hulls would all disappear

Not really, I think. They would still be used in large quantities in pigs and poultry where large quantities of protein are needed to supplement what are omnivores on plant based diets.

And some would still be needed for younger ruminants unless there's some ingredient out there that's readily available and has a good amino acid profile for growing animals.

And you'd still need large quantities of something like red clover silage as the main forage, I'd say?

Bass Reeves · 11-01-2021 10:42pm

There was 2.4 million calves approximately registered last year. About 800K Suckler bred calves, 1.5 million dairy bred calves and 100k pedigree registration's. There was only 180 k calves and weanlings exported. Calves slaughtered were about 50k. Assuming mortality at 5% it leaves over 2 million cattle for Larry and co or a possible factory slaughter heading for 40k/week from late this year on.

Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

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