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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Tim Harding


    mikhail wrote: »
    Does that mean that any forced mate on the board means a flag fall results in a draw? If Stockfish says it's mate in 25, for instance?

    No it is only if there is no way to diverge from the line of play that brings about the checkmate/stalemate. If the player whose flag fell has any alternative that doesn't mate it won't apply. There are some bizarre examples on the new FIDE Arbiters Manual but in practice such cases are highly unlikely to arise.

    For example:
    WHITE Kg6, pawn h6; BLACK rooks f5, f8, Bishop h8, King g8.
    White to move, flag falls, what result?
    If there were no bishop or either rook was missing, Black would win.
    But White has only one legal move: 1 h7 and in this case it is checkmate.
    Therefore under the present wording of the rule, no possible sequence of legal moves can lead to a checkmate for Black.
    So DRAW! It may seem absurd but that is the effect of the current rules.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Tim Harding


    cdeb wrote: »
    Fairly sure you can't claim a draw on repetition without noting your moves alright. How would you prove it?

    The arbiter can now interpose and call 5-fold-repetition, which implies to me he can't interject for 3-fold-repetition.

    I thought protocol in that case was to give both sides two extra minutes to see if any progress could be made.

    Much and all as I prefer a proper ticking clock, increments really do make time trouble significantly easier to adjudicate. If your flag falls, you lose, unless your opponent has no mating material (in which case, why did your flag fall?)

    The current laws provide for various situations but don't cover all possible situations, especially in rapid and blitz where some very strange things can happen because (unlike classical) it is not always required to restore the last position before an illegal move. (If a legal position arises again: the law was changed to cater for the notorious Carlsen case in the 2017 world blitz.)

    Briefly:
    a) if there is an increment of 30 seconds or more, you have to write down your moves and claims of repetition or 50 moves are based on that;

    b) if there is an increment of less than 30 seconds (as in Bunratty etc.) you are not required to keep score ONCE YOUR TIME GOES BELOW FIVE MINUTES (law 8.4) though you may do so.

    c) it is possible to claim a threefold repetition as long as you write down the move that brings it about, or wait until your opponent makes a move that brings it about already. You can then stop the clock and claim, and this is a draw offer. If your opponent doesn't agree to the draw, the claim must be checked if possible.

    Yes, if there is an arbiter present and (s)he observes a fivefold position repetition, or 75 moves by each side without pawn move or capture, then the game should be declared drawn at that point. It is not optional for the arbiter if (s)he has observed it. You are right that the arbiter cannot step in earlier unless there is a claim.

    The claim would need to be verified either from the opponent's scoresheet (if he has kept a complete score) or by digital board (if one was being used) or else by the two players trying to reconstruct the game from the point where the score was no longer being kept. In practice this may well be impossible but one can try if the opponent is not unreasonable or if there is an arbiter/ team captains to assist and it can be done without disturbing other games still in progress.

    Article 8.5.1 says that if neither player is keeping score, then an arbiter or assistant should try to do it. In practice, say at league matches in lower divisions (less than 30 sec increment) or tournaments with no arbiter able to give all his attention to one game, somebody who has finished their game can be deputed to do it.
    Realistically, it won't happen unless you see the type of position arising where a claim could come. A blocked ending with little prospect of progress, or if R+B v R or QvR (no pawns) arises, or a player is trying to mate with B and N, then somebody should try to keep track, preferably on a clean scoresheet.

    The player who wants a draw can then appeal to the person who is keeping score but incorrect claims add two minutes to the opponent's clock.

    Finally, I feel like I am sitting the arbiter exam again. I am not going to discuss the case of games with no increment as this posting is already too long. See the laws, Guidelines III, in the FIDE Handbook.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,862 ✭✭✭mikhail


    No it is only if there is no way to diverge from the line of play that brings about the checkmate/stalemate.
    I get it. A random (legal) move generator has to win/draw every time. So backrank mate in 1 doesn't save me if my flag falls because I could legally play a move other than Rx8#. Strange rule, though I guess the line has to be somewhere.


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