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LGBT and Islam

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    MrFresh wrote: »
    Islam is not a person though. The chairperson of the Irish Muslim Peace and Integration Council and Chief Imam of the Islamic Centre of Ireland is, however, and he has condemned extremism and advocated removing citizenship from returning ISIS fighters. It doesn't get much coverage though. That's pretty much top level in Ireland for Muslims.

    This is not a discussion about extremism, but about where LGBT sits, or doesn't, within Islam.
    The Islamic centre in Clonskeagh, whose chief imam won't speak english after over twenty years in the country, was totally against same sex marriage.
    People are happy and quick to bash Catholicism, and often rightly so, but don't mention islam the same way.
    Why not?

    451714.png


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    This is not a discussion about extremism,


    Take it up with the guy I was replying to.

    K.Flyer wrote: »
    but about where LGBT sits, or doesn't, within Islam.


    We know where it sits. Same place it sits in Catholicism. The religion condemns it, followers make up their own minds.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,154 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    MrFresh wrote: »
    You can disagree with the tenants of a religion without despising all persons who are a member of that religion.

    There's few on this forum who could do with taking that on board, in their book anyone who is Catholic is basically a paedo supporter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,039 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    MrFresh wrote: »
    Islam is not a person though. The chairperson of the Irish Muslim Peace and Integration Council and Chief Imam of the Islamic Centre of Ireland is, however, and he has condemned extremism and advocated removing citizenship from returning ISIS fighters. It doesn't get much coverage though. That's pretty much top level in Ireland for Muslims.

    He is also from a very tiny sect of Islam, that most Muslims view as heretics.

    I seriously believe his life would be at risk in Clonskeagh Mosque.

    He has gotten a kicking there before.

    He is internationally known and probably the main go to Imam for RTE.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,039 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    This is not a discussion about extremism, but about where LGBT sits, or doesn't, within Islam.
    The Islamic centre in Clonskeagh, whose chief imam won't speak english after over twenty years in the country, was totally against same sex marriage.
    People are happy and quick to bash Catholicism, and often rightly so, but don't mention islam the same way.
    Why not?

    451714.png

    He believes that killing gays is correct. That he is again same sex marriage is neither here nor there in context.

    His son was speaking at Rallies in Egypt while those he was backing were throwing gays off roofs around the city.

    He ended up on the Late late show ffs.

    These aren't fringe cranks.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭percy212


    I think I will give him a buzz and let him know Mohammed was a ******. Hello FATWA!!
    Danzy wrote: »
    He believes that killing gays is correct. That he is again same sex marriage is neither here nor there in context.

    His son was speaking at Rallies in Egypt while those he was backing were throwing gays off roofs around the city.

    He ended up on the Late late show ffs.

    These aren't fringe cranks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,825 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    This is not a discussion about extremism, but about where LGBT sits, or doesn't, within Islam.
    The Islamic centre in Clonskeagh, whose chief imam won't speak english after over twenty years in the country, was totally against same sex marriage.
    People are happy and quick to bash Catholicism, and often rightly so, but don't mention islam the same way.
    Why not?

    We can and do totally mention catholicism in the same way, but AGAIN - the banner says "Islamophobia" NOT "Islam".

    There's kind of a slight difference.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    This is not a discussion about extremism, but about where LGBT sits, or doesn't, within Islam.
    The Islamic centre in Clonskeagh, whose chief imam won't speak english after over twenty years in the country, was totally against same sex marriage.
    People are happy and quick to bash Catholicism, and often rightly so, but don't mention islam the same way.
    Why not?

    451714.png

    I don't think anyone is bashing the Catholic church for being catholic. They've a lot of influence and should have absolutely no say in how the country is run.
    I think that would be the same towards Muslims are any other religion. Catholics get more press because there's more of them and they've more influence I would have thought.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,334 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    People are happy and quick to bash Catholicism, and often rightly so, but don't mention islam the same way.
    Why not?


    Because people in the West generally aren’t as familiar with Islam as they are with Christianity, or in an Irish context, people aren’t as exposed to Islam as they are to Catholicism. That’s precisely why Islam isn’t mentioned in the same way as Catholicism. Why would it be? They aren’t as equally influential in Western society or in Irish society as each other. Dara O’ Brian explains it well at four minutes into this video -





    It’s precisely why an Islamic version of Father Ted for example just wouldn’t work, because an Irish audience simply can’t relate to it, and wouldn’t get the humour, because they have limited experience of Islam. Some people are of the impression that Islam is primarily concerned with paedophilia, jihads and homosexuality, and they ignore the vast cultural impact of Islam in the societies where Islam is the predominant religion.

    The thing is, people are perfectly entitled to care about one thing and not something else, that is entirely their prerogative. This idea that because a person cares about one thing or objects to one thing, that they should care about someone or something or object to something else, is the stuff of nonsense. People care about what they care about, or object to what they object to, they aren’t obligated to care for everyone or everything equally, nor are they obligated to object to everyone or everything equally. Why should they? I wouldn’t be able to take someone seriously who claims to care about everyone and everything equally, because it just isn’t humanly possible. It doesn’t take long to find out where their biases, prejudices and bigotry are though based upon their beliefs about themselves and other people, and what they believe separates them from other people,


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,154 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Because people in the West generally aren’t as familiar with Islam as they are with Christianity, or in an Irish context, people aren’t as exposed to Islam as they are to Catholicism. That’s precisely why Islam isn’t mentioned in the same way as Catholicism. Why would it be? They aren’t as equally influential in Western society or in Irish society as each other. Dara O’ Brian explains it well at four minutes into this video -





    It’s precisely why an Islamic version of Father Ted for example just wouldn’t work, because an Irish audience simply can’t relate to it, and wouldn’t get the humour, because they have limited experience of Islam. Some people are of the impression that Islam is primarily concerned with paedophilia, jihads and homosexuality, and they ignore the vast cultural impact of Islam in the societies where Islam is the predominant religion.

    The thing is, people are perfectly entitled to care about one thing and not something else, that is entirely their prerogative. This idea that because a person cares about one thing or objects to one thing, that they should care about someone or something or object to something else, is the stuff of nonsense. People care about what they care about, or object to what they object to, they aren’t obligated to care for everyone or everything equally, nor are they obligated to object to everyone or everything equally. Why should they? I wouldn’t be able to take someone seriously who claims to care about everyone and everything equally, because it just isn’t humanly possible. It doesn’t take long to find out where their biases, prejudices and bigotry are though based upon their beliefs about themselves and other people, and what they believe separates them from other people,


    Or maybe it's because you could end up dead for making fun of Islam, they don't like people taking the piss out of oul Mohammad


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,334 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Or maybe it's because you could end up dead for making fun of Islam, they don't like people taking the piss out of oul Mohammad


    People take the piss out of Mohammad all the time. Nobody died. It’s fine. There are more people who claim they can’t take the piss out of Mohammed than there were ever people who died for taking the piss out of Mohammed. It’s a claim that just doesn’t stand up to any sort of examination.

    There’s plenty of humour in Islam, but much of it gets lost in translation, because of the cultural differences between societies. It’d be the same if people tried to make jokes about Zoroastrianism (I can barely even fcuking spell it :pac:) - people who are unfamiliar with the religion and culture just wouldn’t get the humour!




  • People take the piss out of Mohammad all the time. Nobody died. It’s fine. There are more people who claim they can’t take the piss out of Mohammed than there were ever people who died for taking the piss out of Mohammed. It’s a claim that just doesn’t stand up to any sort of examination.

    That's a ridiculous statement. Would you be more comfortable taking the piss out of Mohamed in a full mosque on your own or taking the piss out of Jesus in a full church on your own?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Lehiff wrote: »
    Why is the solidarity not reciprocated by the Islamic world though?
    Its simply a matter of altitude.
    LGBTI+ activists march at street level in support of Islam.
    Islamic activists march LGBTI+ people off the top of high buildings onto the street below.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,154 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    People take the piss out of Mohammad all the time. Nobody died. It’s fine. There are more people who claim they can’t take the piss out of Mohammed than there were ever people who died for taking the piss out of Mohammed. It’s a claim that just doesn’t stand up to any sort of examination.

    There’s plenty of humour in Islam, but much of it gets lost in translation, because of the cultural differences between societies. It’d be the same if people tried to make jokes about Zoroastrianism (I can barely even fcuking spell it :pac:) - people who are unfamiliar with the religion and culture just wouldn’t get the humour!

    Come off it people are more cautious about it considering what happened in France with the cartoons, I'm not saying people still don't make jokes about the religion but I haven't seen anyone killed lately for drawing cartoons about the Pope.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    recedite wrote: »
    Its simply a matter of altitude.
    LGBTI+ activists march at street level in support of Islam.


    they don't.

    recedite wrote: »
    Islamic activists march LGBTI+ people off the top of high buildings onto the street below.


    Jokes been done a couple times already.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    Come off it people are more cautious about it considering what happened in France with the cartoons, I'm not saying people still don't make jokes about the religion but I haven't seen anyone killed lately for drawing cartoons about the Pope.


    There's nothing in the Bible restricting that though is there? So why would you?


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,154 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    MrFresh wrote: »
    There's nothing in the Bible restricting that though is there? So why would you?

    What are you talking about?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    Gay people of Ireland. We are not your enemy. Islam is.
    Leave us alone and have a go at them instead.
    Thank you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,039 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    MrFresh wrote: »
    There's nothing in the Bible restricting that though is there? So why would you?

    ****ing A, that is some line to take.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,065 ✭✭✭jmreire


    People take the piss out of Mohammad all the time. Nobody died. It’s fine. There are more people who claim they can’t take the piss out of Mohammed than there were ever people who died for taking the piss out of Mohammed. It’s a claim that just doesn’t stand up to any sort of examination.

    There’s plenty of humour in Islam, but much of it gets lost in translation, because of the cultural differences between societies. It’d be the same if people tried to make jokes about Zoroastrianism (I can barely even fcuking spell it :pac:) - people who are unfamiliar with the religion and culture just wouldn’t get the humour!
    Try making jokes about Mohammad or Islam in Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi etc. and come back and tell us how you get on.... here and now in Ireland, and other Country's where Muslim's are in the minority, you probably would be OK ( but even so, that's not 100% guaranteed, you could be unfortunate enough to meet an easily offended fundamentalist ) I have heard many Muslim jokes ( they even have the Islamic version of "Paddy the Irishman, Paddy the Scot, and of course the butt of the jokes... Paddy the Brit.And they have the "Blonde" jokes too. Muslims in general have a very well developed sense of humour. They have their own " Did you hear the one about..." But I have never heard of any jokes involving Mohammad, from any Muslim anywhere.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    What are you talking about?


    The negative reaction to depictions of Mohammed is not about offence, it's about it being prohibited. There is no such prohibition on depictions of the pope so why would there be a similar reaction?




  • MrFresh wrote:
    The negative reaction to depictions of Mohammed is not about offence, it's about it being prohibited. There is no such prohibition on depictions of the pope so why would there be a similar reaction?

    Ffs


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,334 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    That's a ridiculous statement. Would you be more comfortable taking the piss out of Mohamed in a full mosque on your own or taking the piss out of Jesus in a full church on your own?


    Apart from the fact that I’ve never felt comfortable taking the piss out of religion anyway (I mean, I’m in no position to point fingers seeing as Christians have been bumping off heretics for centuries ever since that Western looking Jewish guy was put to death for claiming to be the son of God), there are so many possible ways either scenario could go! I just don’t know unless I was ever in that situation, but honestly, I think I’d have to come up with some new material because how many times can you really make tasteless jokes about paedophilia in either context?

    I just don’t generally find jokes about child molestation all that funny. There was that one joke about why Michael Jackson stuffs cheese down his pants, because kids would do anything for Dairylea, but I was about 12 the first time I heard it and thought it was hilarious, because I could relate to it then. Hearing it for the ten thousandth time 30 years later, it just isn’t the same. It’s old and stale and just not funny. It’s the same with jokes about Mohammed or Catholic priests - it’s not funny any more, it’s just old. Time for some new material.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    jmreire wrote: »
    Try making jokes about Mohammad or Islam in Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi etc. and come back and tell us how you get on.... here and now in Ireland, and other Country's where Muslim's are in the minority, you probably would be OK ( but even so, that's not 100% guaranteed, you could be unfortunate enough to meet an easily offended fundamentalist ) I have heard many Muslim jokes ( they even have the Islamic version of "Paddy the Irishman, Paddy the Scot, and of course the butt of the jokes... Paddy the Brit.And they have the "Blonde" jokes too. Muslims in general have a very well developed sense of humour. They have their own " Did you hear the one about..." But I have never heard of any jokes involving Mohammad, from any Muslim anywhere.

    People print pictures of Jesus on t-shirts and coffee mugs.

    One guy drew a picture of Mohammad and the place got shot up. People died. There was mass demonstrations around the Muslim world. Images of the artist were burnt on the streets.

    Jaw dropping to think there are people in the world who can't see the difference.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,334 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    jmreire wrote: »
    Try making jokes about Mohammad or Islam in Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi etc. and come back and tell us how you get on.... here and now in Ireland, and other Country's where Muslim's are in the minority, you probably would be OK ( but even so, that's not 100% guaranteed, you could be unfortunate enough to meet an easily offended fundamentalist ) I have heard many Muslim jokes ( they even have the Islamic version of "Paddy the Irishman, Paddy the Scot, and of course the butt of the jokes... Paddy the Brit.And they have the "Blonde" jokes too. Muslims in general have a very well developed sense of humour. They have their own " Did you hear the one about..." But I have never heard of any jokes involving Mohammad, from any Muslim anywhere.


    What’s this nonsense with “try making jokes in a completely different context”. Why would I? It’s stupid. Even I wouldn’t get the joke, it’s that stupid. I make a joke of something if I see the humour in it, whether it be in Ballybrack or Baghdad, it’s all the fcuking one as far as humour and context goes. Making jokes out of context that nobody finds funny just isn’t funny. What’s the point? “Look at me, I’m an edgelord”, like, seriously, what’s the point?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    What’s this nonsense with “try making jokes in a completely different context”. Why would I? It’s stupid. Even I wouldn’t get the joke, it’s that stupid. I make a joke of something if I see the humour in it, whether it be in Ballybrack or Baghdad, it’s all the fcuking one as far as humour and context goes. Making jokes out of context that nobody finds funny just isn’t funny. What’s the point? “Look at me, I’m an edgelord”, like, seriously, what’s the point?

    That was a bit of a non answer. A bit of a hissy fit thrown in for padding.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    It’s precisely why an Islamic version of Father Ted for example just wouldn’t work, because an Irish audience simply can’t relate to it, and wouldn’t get the humour, because they have limited experience of Islam. Some people are of the impression that Islam is primarily concerned with paedophilia, jihads and homosexuality, and they ignore the vast cultural impact of Islam in the societies where Islam is the predominant religion.

    Even better still make an Islamic version of Father Ted and show it in Saudi Arabia, Eygpt, Iran, Pakistan, Bahrain, Indonesia or any other Islam invested hellhole and see how far you would get it would never get to pass and in the highly unlikely it somehow got on air it would almost certainly end in beheadings. I'm sure the silent majority of sane minded people would probably relate and find it funny but not the government and certainly not the Islamic fundamentalists.

    People need to understand that Islam is not a religion it's an ideology and a way of life similar to fascism or communism. It may be portrayed as a religion but if you look into it more Sharia law doesn't just govern religious it governs forgein policy, economic policy etc. and seeks to rule under an Islamic Caliphate ie. a country governed under entirely under Sharia law.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    MrFresh wrote: »
    Islam is not a person though. The chairperson of the Irish Muslim Peace and Integration Council and Chief Imam of the Islamic Centre of Ireland is, however, and he has condemned extremism and advocated removing citizenship from returning ISIS fighters. It doesn't get much coverage though. That's pretty much top level in Ireland for Muslims.
    Danzy wrote: »
    He is also from a very tiny sect of Islam, that most Muslims view as heretics.

    I seriously believe his life would be at risk in Clonskeagh Mosque.

    He has gotten a kicking there before.

    He is internationally known and probably the main go to Imam for RTE.
    Danzy is quite correct here, and Mr. Fresh has been taken for a ride by RTE and the liberal media.
    Al Quadri runs a small mosque somewhere near Blanchardstown. He is very good at inventing grandiose titles for his little committees.
    Clonskeagh is the real centre of power.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,334 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Come off it people are more cautious about it considering what happened in France with the cartoons, I'm not saying people still don't make jokes about the religion but I haven't seen anyone killed lately for drawing cartoons about the Pope.


    It’s true that nobody was killed lately for drawing cartoons about the Pope, it’s also true to point out that people were being killed in our own country and are still being killed in our own country because they slighted some fcukwit fundamentalists.

    What happened in Paris is hardly a great example of anything, particularly not the nuanced perspectives of 1.8bn adherents of Islam. To even suggest as much would be stupidity on a monumental scale not even worth entertaining.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    This is not a discussion about extremism, but about where LGBT sits, or doesn't, within Islam.
    The Islamic centre in Clonskeagh, whose chief imam won't speak english after over twenty years in the country, was totally against same sex marriage.
    People are happy and quick to bash Catholicism, and often rightly so, but don't mention islam the same way.
    Why not?

    451714.png

    A strange one considering democracy is considered haram under Sharia Law


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