Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

Bass Reeves · 18-10-2019 3:14pm

Say my name wrote: »

Right so we can't export calves or cattle.
Because it's a welfare issue.

We can't end a calf's life at birth or a few days old or a few weeks old.
Because it's a welfare issue.

Tell me kind sir what do we do with all these extra calves and cattle on the island of Ireland?
And who will rear them and who will kill them whenever ( seemingly not a welfare issue) and what encouragement will be given to that person to rear them?

Answer the above but show us where the money to do so is coming from in this crowded market on this island.

I say island as you know NI could be lumped in with us.

The money side or economics are immaterial. Any issues relating to it are immaterial. I believe the present EU Agri commissioner is not in favour of cattle and especially young calf exports. The dairy industry will have to solve these issues. What seems to be an issue now can and will be a problem within 5 years.

While some lads think only Jex calves are the issue it's much more widespread with the use of low terminal quality beef sites.

Usually if you keep your head stuck in the sand somebody will take the chance of giving you a root in the hole.

Say my name · 18-10-2019 3:24pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The money side or economics are immaterial. Any issues relating to it are immaterial. I believe the present EU Agri commissioner is not in favour of cattle and especially young calf exports. The dairy industry will have to solve these issues. What seems to be an issue now can and will be a problem within 5 years.

While some lads think only Jex calves are the issue it's much more widespread with the use of low terminal quality beef sites.

Usually if you keep your head stuck in the sand somebody will take the chance of giving you a root in the hole.

So you've no answer and know the econmics won't stack up.

But are totally against calves being killed.
You didn't seem that way a while ago when you on about calves going for kebabs.

I can see lads getting wound up by this topic but continually going round in circles.

Bass Reeves · 18-10-2019 3:42pm

Say my name wrote: »

So you've no answer.

But are totally against calves being killed.
You didn't seem that way a while ago when you on about calves going for kebabs.

I can see lads getting wound up by this topic but continually going round in circles.

There a simple answer but do not want to be giving ideas to bureaucracy a levy on calves slaughtered under 3 months of age of 100 euro. If that failed increase the levy to 150. You give it a start of let's say Jan 1 2021 and announce it this December it allows farmers about 120 days to change breeding policy. You make inducing drugs illegal if not already. You set limits for calf death within herds.

That is just one solution I prefer not to have.govrn but you pushed a bit for a solution and there are others

Say my name · 18-10-2019 3:50pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There a simple answer but do not want to be giving ideas to bureaucracy a levy on calves slaughtered under 3 months of age of 100 euro. If that failed increase the levy to 150. You give it a start of let's say Jan 1 2021 and announce it this December it allows farmers about 120 days to change breeding policy. You make inducing drugs illegal if not already. You set limits for calf death within herds.

That is just one solution I prefer not to have.govrn but you pushed a bit for a solution and there are others

Who's that all going to benefit though and they probably would do it because of the way farming is treated.
It'll only benefit the factories and absolutely nobody else.
The factories will still use the tricky market conditions talk and definitely talk about a glut of cattle.

They'll be throwing meat into the Irish Sea - not a welfare issue either.

Bass Reeves · 18-10-2019 4:01pm

Say my name wrote: »

Who's that all going to benefit though and they probably would do it because of the way farming is treated.
It'll only benefit the factories and absolutely nobody else.
The factories will still use the tricky market conditions talk and definitely talk about a glut of cattle.

They'll be throwing meat into the Irish Sea.

If 20-30 years ago you told a poultry farmers laying hens could not be kept in single cage's and a pig farmer that sows could not be teathered he have said impossible would not happen yet neither is in place now. Even dawg is going free range with his now

patsy_mccabe · 18-10-2019 4:12pm

Say my name wrote: »

It's not just jersey though. It's lads picking high ebi sires off an ai book. With an ebi system that discriminates against weight and positively gives a higher weighting to a lighter animal.
Years ago you had your daughter proofs and could pick on rump width. It's how I picked as well as fat, protein and yield.
Then that was gone and it turned me so I left ai and went looking for bull calves with a bit of shape that were calved themselves with fat, protein and yield in the cow.
I'm not bragging but there's a difference now between my calves and those who followed the ebi with no thought of rump width.

Edit: it'd be a shocking thing if I was posting sense. I'd say the world would end or something like that!

Funny but thats the way I look at picking AI limousin bulls too. Maternal calving is a big thing for me. It takes all of the stress out of calving. I didn't have to touch a cow calving this year.

Say my name · 18-10-2019 4:26pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If 20-30 years ago you told a poultry farmers laying hens could not be kept in single cage's and a pig farmer that does could not be teathered he have said impossible would not happen yet neither is in place now. Even dawg is going free range with his now

Yes but seemingly that's all apples and oranges. Completely different.
But they still shred the little cocks for snake food.

Dawg could be retiring now for all we know and be leaving all that to the next slave.
The issue with free range poultry is it's not really free range. There's still and always will be the threat of avian flu and housed as well in bad weather which is worse in this country.

Most if not all is optics and how it's related to the consumer.

Show a picture of Muckits goat like calves on a road or a quick death to a week old calf to a consumer....well from a farmers point of view I'd know which one I'd pick.

Say my name · 18-10-2019 4:27pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Funny but thats the way I look at picking AI limousin bulls too. Maternal calving is a big thing for me. It takes all of the stress out of calving. I didn't have to touch a cow calving this year.

I haven't put a jack on a cow in three years.

wrangler · 18-10-2019 4:36pm

Say my name wrote: »

I haven't put a jack on a cow in three years.

Neither have a lot of newzealanders and you know where those are destined......

Mooooo · 18-10-2019 4:40pm

Gestation length is taking care of a lot of that. Used a jack maybe 4 times in the last 5 years, 3 of those due to a Hereford bull throwing calves with big heads... the other was a dead calf. Have a couple of BB every year and have never used a jack for them

Say my name · 18-10-2019 4:55pm

wrangler wrote: »

Neither have a lot of newzealanders and you know where those are destined......

World cup final?

jaymla627 · 18-10-2019 5:50pm

Say my name wrote: »

It's not just jersey though. It's lads picking high ebi sires off an ai book. With an ebi system that discriminates against weight and positively gives a higher weighting to a lighter animal.
Years ago you had your daughter proofs and could pick on rump width. It's how I picked as well as fat, protein and yield.
Then that was gone and it turned me so I left ai and went looking for bull calves with a bit of shape that were calved themselves with fat, protein and yield in the cow.
I'm not bragging but there's a difference now between my calves and those who followed the ebi with no thought of rump width.

Edit: it'd be a shocking thing if I was posting sense. I'd say the world would end or something like that!

Never use a bull under two for overall type here as a rule, you wont find a bull in the top 20 for ebi from progressive that is pretty comical stuff

Gawddawggonnit · 18-10-2019 6:01pm

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

I'm curious as to where lads think the suckler finished animal ends up? Too big for consumer plates and packaging, the only outlet is industrial and catering products, isn't it?

And the only beef getting a premium is AAx and HEx from those inferior dairy animals.

So when the JEx gets killed, he's going into the same end product as the apparently superior suckler animal.

This whole superior/inferior prejudice needs a bit of examining, folks.

French processors want carcasses of 400+kg...and I would think that France produces more beef and probably exports more than Ireland.

Maybe the smaller carcass is more suitable to the UK market?

(Or maybe the smaller carcasses were handy to flog to the French and call it AA...? That didn’t end well!)

Gawddawggonnit · 18-10-2019 6:13pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Ah lads c'mon. Thre is no comparison to the % of choice cuts on a cont type animal compared to a JEX type..... and that's not to even mention feed efficiency.

If you keep repeating bullshyte that a screw of a Jex is better beef than an actual beef breed...you know the rest.

Gawddawggonnit · 18-10-2019 6:18pm

yewtree wrote: »

Beef from a jex steer is better in terms of eating quality than that from a chx steer.

As above, keep repeating that...then wheel out a few world renown chefs to confirm! Easy peasy.

Maybe the beef breeds are the problem...let’s get rid of all beef breeds!

Gawddawggonnit · 18-10-2019 6:25pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Surprised nobody has questioned the logic in giving the most profitable and environmentally destructive sector another subsidy that will only further undermine the beef industry...

Post of the week!

Mooooo · 18-10-2019 6:37pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

As above, keep repeating that...then wheel out a few world renown chefs to confirm! Easy peasy.

Maybe the beef breeds are the problem...let’s get rid of all beef breeds!

That totally depends on the market. They are supposed to have more marbling than most breeds. Some markets want that others not as much. The factories here don't want cattle over 400kgs, 90% is exported is it the factories cutting the price for the crack or do they have trouble selling in any way other than mince? The French is the market for cow's apparently whereas other markets want younger animals.

Fact is the return from beef isn't giving an economical return from any animal at the minute. When quotas came in suckler numbers jumped, will they correct backwards again now that they are gone it looks like it but there are a lot of lads producing beef at a loss and until that changes factories will have it whatever way they want it and it's not just some of the lads at calf to beef, the suckler side as well and have been for a long time. Dunno who said it I'm sure it was on some thread here but it's the lads that kill away the same handful of animals regardless of making profit or not are likely biggest aide to the factories. If they stopped due to the losses made you'd be surprised how things would correct

Gawddawggonnit · 18-10-2019 6:53pm

Mooooo wrote: »

That totally depends on the market. They are supposed to have more marbling than most breeds. Some markets want that others not as much. The factories here don't want cattle over 400kgs, 90% is exported is it the factories cutting the price for the crack or do they have trouble selling in any way other than mince? The French is the market for cow's apparently whereas other markets want younger animals.

Fact is the return from beef isn't giving an economical return from any animal at the minute. When quotas came in suckler numbers jumped, will they correct backwards again now that they are gone it looks like it but there are a lot of lads producing beef at a loss and until that changes factories will have it whatever way they want it and it's not just some of the lads at calf to beef, the suckler side as well and have been for a long time. Dunno who said it I'm sure it was on some thread here but it's the lads that kill away the same handful of animals regardless of making profit or not are likely biggest aide to the factories. If they stopped due to the losses made you'd be surprised how things would correct

Agree.

But the topic being discussed is an animal welfare issue, the economics of beef production is a completely different topic.
One can hardly call a newborn calf beef, can you?

It’s all optics. There’ll be some outcry if Ireland follows the NZ route of killing newborns...not to mention induced abortions!

Say my name · 18-10-2019 7:02pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Agree.

But the topic being discussed is an animal welfare issue, the economics of beef production is a completely different topic.
One can hardly call a newborn calf beef, can you?

It’s all optics. There’ll be some outcry if Ireland follows the NZ route of killing newborns...not to mention induced abortions!

Tell me why if there's such concern from the public on animals been put to sleep at birth why there's no outcry about the thoroughbred industry putting piebald foals to sleep for the sole purpose of using those mares as foster mares for the thoroughbred foals?

And don't say that's all news to yourself. There's businesses based on it.

Say my name · 18-10-2019 7:50pm

Before I get my head bashed in.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/foster-mare-scandal.139391/

Just so people know I hate hypocrisy.

I'll leave my obituary to someone else.
Back to topic.

Danzy · 18-10-2019 7:58pm

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Very good post, export will only take what is required. As for the AA agree totally with the breed going down the road of easy calving and black to colour the xbred and totally forgot about being a beef breed.

2 Aa heifers on the kill sheet here, 270 and 359 dead. Same age. Overage 31 months.

Pollies could give you any extreme now.

Danzy · 18-10-2019 8:03pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

As above, keep repeating that...then wheel out a few world renown chefs to confirm! Easy peasy.

Maybe the beef breeds are the problem...let’s get rid of all beef breeds!

There is a bit of truth in the second part, maybe more than a bit.

Danzy · 18-10-2019 8:15pm

K.G. wrote: »

Sorry i forgot that they got the penalties for not being qa and over 30 months increased .im only repeating what fellas arr complaining to me about.

Some people are always pissing in their own porridge.

They'd be moaning anyway.

Bass Reeves · 18-10-2019 9:17pm

Say my name wrote: »

Tell me why if there's such concern from the public on animals been put to sleep at birth why there's no outcry about the thoroughbred industry putting piebald foals to sleep for the sole purpose of using those mares as foster mares for the thoroughbred foals?

And don't say that's all news to yourself. There's businesses based on it.

Say my name wrote: »

Before I get my head bashed in.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/foster-mare-scandal.139391/

Just so people know I hate hypocrisy.

I'll leave my obituary to someone else.
Back to topic.

I see you just read the first post in the thread if you read the rest it seems not to be a common pratice.

However its immaterial. Horses are racing animals and not prone to the same outcry as what happens in food production. It pointless trying to debate this issue with you. You are coming at it from a moral and hypocrisy standpoint. All of there are immaterial. As I said before the Booby calf setup is coming under scrutiny. We do know that Glanbia have fired the first shot by closing down Greenfields and starting there calf to beef scheme.

What we do know whatever about the commercial logic it is unlikly that EU public opinion will tolerate high numbers of calf slaughtering and taht exporting of calves or even having calves travel long distances overland is being frowned upon by the public.

Already British public opinion stopped the ferries operating into and out of the UK from carrying calves for export on them. I am giving an opinion about what may happen the morals or hypocrisy is immaterial, what happens in the chicken industry, or in the horse and hound industry. The UK has banned foxhunting and it has not being reinstated by Conservative Governments. Coursing has changed it way of using live hares and even badger baiting and cockfighting is illegal

Say my name · 18-10-2019 9:29pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I see you just read the first post in the thread if you read the rest it seems not to be a common pratice.

However its immaterial. Horses are racing animals and not prone to the same outcry as what happens in food production. It pointless trying to debate this issue with you. You are coming at it from a moral and hypocrisy standpoint. All of there are immaterial. As I said before the Booby calf setup is coming under scrutiny. We do know that Glanbia have fired the first shot by closing down Greenfields and starting there calf to beef scheme.

What we do know whatever about the commercial logic it is unlikly that EU public opinion will tolerate high numbers of calf slaughtering and taht exporting of calves or even having calves travel long distances overland is being frowned upon by the public.

Already British public opinion stopped the ferries operating into and out of the UK from carrying calves for export on them. I am giving an opinion about what may happen the morals or hypocrisy is immaterial, what happens in the chicken industry, or in the horse and hound industry. The UK has banned foxhunting and it has not being reinstated by Conservative Governments. Coursing has changed it way of using live hares and even badger baiting and cockfighting is illegal

And beef farming will soon be banned and live on charity farms for the rest of their lives.
Yea I got the message Bass.
You seem to know all about the elite sport Bass. I'll leave it there so..

jaymla627 · 18-10-2019 9:47pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Agree.

But the topic being discussed is an animal welfare issue, the economics of beef production is a completely different topic.
One can hardly call a newborn calf beef, can you?

It’s all optics. There’ll be some outcry if Ireland follows the NZ route of killing newborns...not to mention induced abortions!

Will be gas all the same, the 20 cent a litre profit monitors will be a vivid dream when we all have to bring our bull calves to 12 weeks and hope to get a few pound then our have to hand over a few hundred for the privilege of getting the calf of the books ans keeping the paperwork right for the milk processor...
Can see the Holstein cow throwing out 9000 odd litres year making a comeback when lads finally cotton on carrying 100 good cows and only having to offload 65-70 calves a year as opposed to 200 grass rats and the 150 plus calves that will need new homes that mighten be out their

Mooooo · 18-10-2019 9:51pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Agree.

But the topic being discussed is an animal welfare issue, the economics of beef production is a completely different topic.
One can hardly call a newborn calf beef, can you?

It’s all optics. There’ll be some outcry if Ireland follows the NZ route of killing newborns...not to mention induced abortions!

Ireland won't follow that route as it simply won't be allowed to happen, particularly the induced abortions which afaik is already illegal.
Economics of beef production are a part of it as if there was a better price for beef dairy calves would be more viable. A couple of years ago jex made 120 due to beef price being high at the time. As I said previously je influence I believe is also being overplayed.
Go to a goat farm on the continent and what happens the male dairy goats born?

TooOldBoots · 18-10-2019 9:52pm

I'd love to go down the route of 100% dairy cross calf to beef and be rid of these Suckler cows. Every year I hear of this big glut of cheap calves coming and how cheap they are going to be.
I also know that I could turn a profit from them, I'd be able to raise them far cheaper than those Teagasc folks.
But when I go into the mart, all I see is mad mad prices being paid for very poor calves by a new bunch of idiot farmers having landed around the ringside bidding each other up.

whelan2 · 18-10-2019 9:58pm

TooOldBoots wrote: »

I'd love to go down the route of 100% dairy cross calf to beef and be rid of these Suckler cows. Every year I hear of this big glut of cheap calves coming and how cheap they are going to be.
I also know that I could turn a profit from them, I'd be able to raise them far cheaper than those Teagasc folks.
But when I go into the mart, all I see is mad mad prices being paid for very poor calves by a new bunch of idiot farmers having landed around the ringside bidding each other up.

Buy off farm

patsy_mccabe · 18-10-2019 10:05pm

TooOldBoots wrote: »

...
But when I go into the mart, all I see is mad mad prices being paid for very poor calves by a new bunch of idiot farmers having landed around the ringside bidding each other up.

Would you not be one of them idiots?

Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

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