The afterlife

So you believe in life after death obviously?

Lavinia wrote: »

All I know I was not 'dead' at all, even I 'technically' was, but am wondering if it is possible for brain to has some activity still in those few minutes after 'death'.

I can help you answer that. And the answer is "yes". And how big a "yes" depends on what kind of "dead" you were.

First take this analogy. If I gave you a device that detects the color red and sent you blindfolded into a room. The device reads nothing at all. So you come back out of the room. What would you say to me on your return. Would it be:

1) There is no RED in that room.
2) There is no COLOR in that room.

Option 2 is ridiculous right? MAYBE there is no color. But you can not tell that from the reading of the device.

Now why the analogy?

In a clinical surgery situation we attach devices to you that detect particular types of brain patterns and activity. When THOSE activities stop, the device gives back a "no activity" reading. But like the color detection device above it is NOT saying there is no activity in the brain. It is JUST saying there is no activity of the type it is scanning for. That is all.

So yes it is absolutely possible for there to be brain activity during your "dead" time (even though you are not dead but "clinically dead" which is a different thing entirely). And there are many articles around to this effect too.

But there is a MASSIVE and VERY problematic assumption at play in the people who have had experiences matching, or similar to, your own. Which is that they assume the experience they had did actually occur DURING the time they were "dead". The problem there being that, subjectively speaking, they are the WORST person in the world to judge when the experience actually occurred.

What is just as, if not much more, likely is that the experience they had actually occurred in the moment leading up to the "dead time" or leading out of it. Especially out of it as when someone is going into that phase we start pumping them with all kinds of physical, chemical and electrical stimuli to revive them. All of which sends cascading flooding signals into the brain and throughout the nervous system.

It is similar to dreaming. Quite a lot of the dreams we remember are not during our sleep phases but during the passage in and out of them. And sometimes a dream that lasted mere seconds can feel like it actually lasted minutes or hours.

Lavinia wrote: »

At that time I seriously did not know anything about the subject of 'afterlife' or of people's experiences with it, nor was I interested, so there was no possibility of me 'subconsciously' recreating something I knew about.

That is something that sounds very very unlikely to me. You might not think you were CONSCIOUSLY aware of such things....... but our society, culture, media, discourse and even our very language is punctuated heavily with such memes and imagery and culture. It is highly unlikely you could spend any quantity of years living in a modern society without assimilating SOME of that.

Take UFO sightings for example. Since Spielberg gave us little grey aliens with big black eyes..... the majority of alien sightings or abduction stories include such aliens in their anecdotal descriptions. EVEN by people who never saw such a movie in their life. Because even though they did not consciously watch any such movie........ the imagery from such movies permeates memes and media and culture all over the place.

Lavinia wrote: »

But was sincerely shocked to find out that lots of people experienced some part of it very similarly, regardless of where they lived or which religion they were born in etc.

Actually that does not shock me at all. The OPPOSITE would shock me. If people were all having the same real world experience (heart failure and brain problems and other stuff) but were coming out of it with DIFFERENT Experiences...... then that would be fantastical and weird and would need explanation.

But the fact is that for all our individuality, we are all pretty much identical at the level of biology and the brain. So a person having an NDE in america and one having an NDE in Pakistan or India should really be having pretty similar experiences over all. Just like if you put diesel into a petrol car built in the US, and into a petrol car built in Japan, they are both going to die in the same way because........ for all their superficial differences..... they are essentially identical inside.

How they render and parse those experiences however tends to be through their local language, culture and religions. And it is from there that some differences occur.

My mother at 73 and my aunts are also fairly aged woman so I do have some anecdote to draw on related to the old days

But joking aside, even back then the radio, television and media of the day would have been punctuated with it. Depending on where you went to school your curriculum was likely heavily influenced by it (Certainly with the "integrated curriculum" in Ireland for example). The novels you read could not have been devoid of it. The very language we use is heavily etymologically influenced by religious memes.

Short of living in isolation in a cave with no media or entertainment of any type........ you are exposed to a LOT more memes of a religious nature than you are aware of.

It is simply a fact in modern science and social studies that people are exposed to a lot more memes, imagery and narratives than they are aware of. Even in the moment, let alone in their memories of 10, 20, 50 or more years ago in their childhood. The inputs that influence the stories we tell ourselves in our heads are far more diverse than most of us suspect.

But as I said, none of that is really required. It is just an interesting side fact. For your experience to match that of most other people having similar experiences you do not NEED exposure to such memes and culture. You just need the simple fact that your brain is essentially pretty identical to theirs in just about every way. So people having events similar to yours, will quite often report experiences during it similar to yours.

The real shock would be, opposite to what you said, if there was MORE diversity in such experience. Not less. If people getting resuscitated in the same way, from the same kinds of heart failure (for example) in different countries were describing having massively DIFFERENT experiences..... that would be weird. That they all essentially describe the SAME one..... with tunnels and bright lights and so forth, is pretty much what should be expected.

^ And so what if it is pointless? Just because WE might not like that, that does not mean the universe owes us a point or a reason. It just is what it is perhaps.

I can only talk for myself of course, but I find it would be personally ridiculous to base one truth claim on another, if the other is less a truth claim and more what I WANT to be true about the universe. Simply WANTING There to be a "point" to life is not evidence that there therefore must be an after life.

But I guess people differ in that. Some people believe what they believe because there is a sound basis for the belief. Others select what they believe because they see believing it as being personally positive. I guess I am just not built the latter way myself.

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

^ And so what if it is pointless? Just because WE might not like that, that does not mean the universe owes us a point or a reason. It just is what it is perhaps.

I can only talk for myself of course, but I find it would be personally ridiculous to base one truth claim on another, if the other is less a truth claim and more what I WANT to be true about the universe. Simply WANTING There to be a "point" to life is not evidence that there therefore must be an after life.

But I guess people differ in that. Some people believe what they believe because there is a sound basis for the belief. Others select what they believe because they see believing it as being personally positive. I guess I am just not built the latter way myself.

I get your point. We are a realtively new species in the scheme of things and have only developed our intellect in much more recent times. I believe that all we can prove or disprove now is not difinitive as there is more we don't know than we do.

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

So while it is linguistically true to say we do not know everything..... saying it that way misses out on the trend in what we have learned which is 100% solely and only pointing in one direction so far. A fact that should not be lightly dismissed.

The one direction it is pointing in could be predetermined. I love these type of discussions just because there is no wrong or right, everyone just has their own slant. As an optimist I have noting to lose. If there is nothing after death then i'll be none the wiser. But until then I enjoy exploring the possibilities that there might!

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

My mother at 73 and my aunts are also fairly aged woman so I do have some anecdote to draw on related to the old days

But joking aside, even back then the radio, television and media of the day would have been punctuated with it. Depending on where you went to school your curriculum was likely heavily influenced by it (Certainly with the "integrated curriculum" in Ireland for example). The novels you read could not have been devoid of it. The very language we use is heavily etymologically influenced by religious memes.

Short of living in isolation in a cave with no media or entertainment of any type........ you are exposed to a LOT more memes of a religious nature than you are aware of.

It is simply a fact in modern science and social studies that people are exposed to a lot more memes, imagery and narratives than they are aware of. Even in the moment, let alone in their memories of 10, 20, 50 or more years ago in their childhood. The inputs that influence the stories we tell ourselves in our heads are far more diverse than most of us suspect.

But as I said, none of that is really required. It is just an interesting side fact. For your experience to match that of most other people having similar experiences you do not NEED exposure to such memes and culture. You just need the simple fact that your brain is essentially pretty identical to theirs in just about every way. So people having events similar to yours, will quite often report experiences during it similar to yours.

The real shock would be, opposite to what you said, if there was MORE diversity in such experience. Not less. If people getting resuscitated in the same way, from the same kinds of heart failure (for example) in different countries were describing having massively DIFFERENT experiences..... that would be weird. That they all essentially describe the SAME one..... with tunnels and bright lights and so forth, is pretty much what should be expected.

I am not from Ireland. Not sure what are you trying to point out, or what is your problem with me saying I didn't know anything about it prior to what happened to me. My parents were not religious and those topics were never discussed in our family. First book i found after long search on it was from the library (there were no phones at that time either, few homes had landlines even) So yea, I'm no going to repeat this the third time.
You can believe it or you don't but please just leave it (if you can, thanks).

(One of the reasons I'm actually really rarely talking about this is exactly this type of response, where someone is trying to convince me that what is white is black or vice versa. I know what I know, and that is enough for me, I tried to share it here as - it seems like someone was actually interested in the topic).

What surprises me is that some people just cannot get their head around it, without accusing other people who did experience something like this that yea, it has to be it was just some kind of 'cheat' in what they are saying, something faulty, they have to discredit these people one way or another, as they simply cannot accept the possibility of it being actually the truth.

Yea, it happened the way I described it. Now get over it so we can move on. Thanks.

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

To me the idea of an after life cheapens the value of our actual life. Similarly it cheapens the idea of things like sacrifice. So I have to admit that while I see no reason AT ALL to think there is actually an after life..... I am parallel to that also quite relieved to find it is so.

So I disagree with the above because my belief in some sort I afterlife doesn't cheapen the value of this actual life. I intend to live this life to the fullest as well as the next ( if there happens to be one, unless income back as a snail or something. Feck that).

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I am not aware of having any "problem". I am merely stating a straight out fact that our culture, our language, our media, our literature...

World today and 40 years ago are not the same at all..

I am not sure how stating a mere fact, constitutes having a "problem" exactly?

My own 6 year old yesterday just had a minor revelation around her homework and described it herself, without any prompting from me, with the words "light at the end of the tunnel". That is just the kind of language and imagery that populates our language and our culture.

Again, I think it is you who are projecting that since you think life is in one way it has to be the same for anybody else. Why?
Your 6 year old prob had already more access to information than I had at the age of 16.

As I said though, the only one getting haughty here and who needs to "get over" what is being said.... is not me. I would also point out that no one (to my knowledge anyway) is compelling you to read my posts, let alone reply to them. That is entirely your own choice.

Sure, but you are quoting me personally, and then giving statements how what I said must be untrue because even your 6 year old etc.

Maybe you do not see this.
Anyway I have no rage whatsoever, Im just really surprised how - few times in my life I ever actually mentioned this there is always somebody who starts to jump.

Btw I even said that I had doubts myself and Id be probably more 'at peace' had I figured yes I knew about this before, therefore it had to be some brain activity after I was clinically dead.

I was lucky that my mom was a nurse and that both my parents were there at the time resuscitating me, otherwise I'd not be typing here today.

Have a good day.

Don't think I will post in this topic anymore.
No point really.

Generally sure we are all human beings, but down to each person we are all kinds of different.

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I can help you answer that. And the answer is "yes". And how big a "yes" depends on what kind of "dead" you were.

First take this analogy. If I gave you a device that detects the color red and sent you blindfolded into a room. The device reads nothing at all. So you come back out of the room. What would you say to me on your return. Would it be:

1) There is no RED in that room.
2) There is no COLOR in that room.

Option 2 is ridiculous right? MAYBE there is no color. But you can not tell that from the reading of the device.

Now why the analogy?

In a clinical surgery situation we attach devices to you that detect particular types of brain patterns and activity. When THOSE activities stop, the device gives back a "no activity" reading. But like the color detection device above it is NOT saying there is no activity in the brain. It is JUST saying there is no activity of the type it is scanning for. That is all.

So yes it is absolutely possible for there to be brain activity during your "dead" time (even though you are not dead but "clinically dead" which is a different thing entirely). And there are many articles around to this effect too.

But there is a MASSIVE and VERY problematic assumption at play in the people who have had experiences matching, or similar to, your own. Which is that they assume the experience they had did actually occur DURING the time they were "dead". The problem there being that, subjectively speaking, they are the WORST person in the world to judge when the experience actually occurred.

What is just as, if not much more, likely is that the experience they had actually occurred in the moment leading up to the "dead time" or leading out of it. Especially out of it as when someone is going into that phase we start pumping them with all kinds of physical, chemical and electrical stimuli to revive them. All of which sends cascading flooding signals into the brain and throughout the nervous system.

It is similar to dreaming. Quite a lot of the dreams we remember are not during our sleep phases but during the passage in and out of them. And sometimes a dream that lasted mere seconds can feel like it actually lasted minutes or hours.



That is something that sounds very very unlikely to me. You might not think you were CONSCIOUSLY aware of such things....... but our society, culture, media, discourse and even our very language is punctuated heavily with such memes and imagery and culture. It is highly unlikely you could spend any quantity of years living in a modern society without assimilating SOME of that.

Take UFO sightings for example. Since Spielberg gave us little grey aliens with big black eyes..... the majority of alien sightings or abduction stories include such aliens in their anecdotal descriptions. EVEN by people who never saw such a movie in their life. Because even though they did not consciously watch any such movie........ the imagery from such movies permeates memes and media and culture all over the place.



Actually that does not shock me at all. The OPPOSITE would shock me. If people were all having the same real world experience (heart failure and brain problems and other stuff) but were coming out of it with DIFFERENT Experiences...... then that would be fantastical and weird and would need explanation.

But the fact is that for all our individuality, we are all pretty much identical at the level of biology and the brain. So a person having an NDE in america and one having an NDE in Pakistan or India should really be having pretty similar experiences over all. Just like if you put diesel into a petrol car built in the US, and into a petrol car built in Japan, they are both going to die in the same way because........ for all their superficial differences..... they are essentially identical inside.

How they render and parse those experiences however tends to be through their local language, culture and religions. And it is from there that some differences occur.

Kindly let me help you or you'll drown, said the monkey to the fish, helping it up a tree.