Stores

Bass Reeves · 05-11-2019 11:36pm #1

I had an hour this evening and I said I do a analysis on the stores I bought this year for finishing next year. In total my figures are as follows I have 69 stores for next year, I have done an estimate of there weight at housing this week and have done costings at them going into the shed. There are

43 FR
6 CH
10 AA/LM
10 HE

Average weight at purchase was 359 kgs and they cost 574 euro inc fees and transport or 1.6/kg

They have been on average on the farm 75 days before housing if I cost that at 35c/day they are standing me approx 601 euro at housing. I have averaged them at 421 kgs each and at housing they are costing me 1.43/kg

I have done a projection on what they will slaughter at
FR=330kgs
HE=330kgs
AA/Lm=310 kgs
CH=365 kgs

I have done a cash projection at a base of 3.7/kg average next year and at 3.5/kg
@ 3.7/kg they will average 1199/head
@3.5/kg they will average 1127/head

Generally my costs run around 350/head for a 12 month turn around

If the average slaughter weight drops or is above by 10kgs/head It effect the price by about 35-37/head.

Looking at the stores this year compared to other years as I have stopped buying a few weanlings I expect that these will slaughter 20-40 days layer than usual.

Any taughts

Waternotsoda · 06-11-2019 9:15am

How many months old are these?

Bass Reeves · 06-11-2019 10:30am

Waternotsoda wrote: »

How many months old are these?

About 20-21 months old on average.

Waternotsoda · 06-11-2019 12:04pm

Do you have a favoured processor for these? Kepak like the angus I supply them. But I am not sure about how the like overage cattle.

Bass Reeves · 06-11-2019 12:07pm

Waternotsoda wrote: »

Do you have a favoured processor for these? Kepak like the angus I supply them. But I am not sure about how the like overage cattle.

With friesians you have to shop around as at times flat pricing goes on. It getting more and more critical to slaughter sub 30 months so if possible get them out then.

Waternotsoda · 06-11-2019 2:54pm

What is your meal bill like? Do you have a bin?

mayota · 06-11-2019 2:59pm

ðŸ˜¬

Bass Reeves · 06-11-2019 3:12pm

Waternotsoda wrote: »

What is your meal bill like? Do you have a bin?

Yes I have a meal in. Stores get no ration over winter only middling quality silage. Ration is fed for 6-10 weeks pre slaughter 3 kgs/head. Some Friesians went this year with only 4 weeks feeding.
Average would be 35 euro /head approx for cattle killed before September.

squinn2912 · 07-11-2019 12:22am

How long will you have them? I’m not sure I’ve picked that up right. Looking like 12 months so cost about €925 and hopefully they’ll make 1200 leaving €275 for you?

Bass Reeves · 07-11-2019 1:12am

squinn2912 wrote: »

How long will you have them? I’m not sure I’ve picked that up right. Looking like 12 months so cost about €925 and hopefully they’ll make 1200 leaving €275 for you?

I be sending them for slaughter from mid June on I expect to have over 50 gone by September 1st. I be hoping that if prices are at that level that those will be the figures.

Muckit · 07-11-2019 5:41am

Best of luck. But lm out. (Dragons Den)

squinn2912 · 07-11-2019 10:17am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I be sending them for slaughter from mid June on I expect to have over 50 gone by September 1st. I be hoping that if prices are at that level that those will be the figures.

Are my sums right or have I missed something? If they were all to leave that then you’d be looking at 18k I think. Based on getting them away after a year. After that I see the mention of 20 days at 35cents is €7

Bass Reeves · 07-11-2019 11:03am

squinn2912 wrote: »

Are my sums right or have I missed something? If they were all to leave that then you’d be looking at 18k I think. Based on getting them away after a year. After that I see the mention of 20 days at 35cents is €7

The 35c/day is what I consider my costs to be to get them into the shed from the time I bought them. It's just to give an idea of the cost/value of buying early as opposed to late in the year.The average animal was bought 75 days pre housing. So it added 26 euro to the cost as opposed to buying similar store's to what I bought nearer housing. Early next summer with heavier store's grass costs climb to 50c/day. Overwintering costs are sub 1euro/day. Add dosing vetinary, pre sale ration transport/ sales and buying costs and my projected costs are 350/ year. To achieve a 12 month average turnaround I need 50% gone by August 1st and everything slaughtered by the end of September approximately given that first sales start in June

I gave the projected sale value off an average base price 3.75/kg with new QA bonus of 20c added. I have given projected DW''s and worked off what I think there projected grades will be. 2.75/kg would require a base of near 4/kg in late May/early June to an Autumn base of 3.5/kg. Not too sure if that is attainable but I have also given projections on how 10c/kg or 10kgs extra/less will effect price.

While 18k might seem the profit It would all depend on store replace price next summer/Autumn. This is effected by price but also there availability and my ability to buy them nd have grass for them.

However you have to remember I am on good quality land and I am buying a store in mid summer that demand is poor for.. TBH all this is is a projection. Given that we all buy and sell cattle it a business plan based on that

CHOPS01 · 07-11-2019 5:32pm

Think you mentioned before that you give animals a shake of a mineral over the winter. I let stock have a beef mineral lick. Is it a waste would you think ? Also any point in throwing stock 1/1.5 kg of barley over winter or do you beleive maximum benifit from meal is at grass ?

Bass Reeves · 11-11-2019 11:14am

CHOPS01 wrote: »

Think you mentioned before that you give animals a shake of a mineral over the winter. I let stock have a beef mineral lick. Is it a waste would you think ? Also any point in throwing stock 1/1.5 kg of barley over winter or do you beleive maximum benifit from meal is at grass ?

Minerals licks are an expensive way of feeding minerals. They are especially expensive in sheds as cattle are bored and will use the luck for the sake of something to do. Bagged minerals work out much cheaper. I bought 10bags +1free for 19/bag. An animal recieving 80gramms/day is costing 5.5c/day.
In general a bucket will costuchbtge same as a back but a pen of cattle will use it in a week's at a cost of 30-40c/day.

My thinking on rations is that cattle at present prices are at Brest breaking even with flesh gained by feeding it. I feed on grass to get FS and nothing else.

grassroot1 · 11-11-2019 2:39pm

Bass
if I might question you a bit further if you are buying 75 days before housing and your animals do .75 kg ADG thats an extra 50 odd kilos for 35 euro.
So say 75 euros worth of animal for 35 euro so its an advantage to you rather than a cost if I explained it correctly!!
Please delete the thread or everyone will copy you...

Bass Reeves · 12-11-2019 2:09am

grassroot1 wrote: »

Bass
if I might question you a bit further if you are buying 75 days before housing and your animals do .75 kg ADG thats an extra 50 odd kilos for 35 euro.
So say 75 euros worth of animal for 35 euro so its an advantage to you rather than a cost if I explained it correctly!!
Please delete the thread or everyone will copy you...

It is not the fittest, the fastest or the most intelligent that survive but rather those that adapt. I will adapt.

To answer your question yes its an advantage. Most will think it is cheaper to buy in late autumn. On a price/kg basis yes it is. I have a picture of three store in the November photo competition. I bought 6 of them at 360 kgs average in late May. Now they were value the day I bought but today across the six I think ( I may be wrong) they are above 500kgs average. Too many finishers are caught in the 60-100 day system. or a calf to beef system.

Two sharp men were making excuses today one lad sold summer store that left less than 100 each. The other lad sold over 30 months (used to draw payment) cattle that left less than 200 each. As I said to one of them if any animal leaves less than 500 each I question why I bought them. Yes I make mistakes but I understand that I need 350/head to break even.

Will some lad copy my system he is more than welcome to, but to survive he need to adapt every 2-3 years,

By the way I could look a right idiot this time next year if assumptions are incorrect.

squinn2912 · 12-11-2019 9:44am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It is not the fittest, the fastest or the most intelligent that survive but rather those that adapt. I will adapt.

To answer your question yes its an advantage. Most will think it is cheaper to buy in late autumn. On a price/kg basis yes it is. I have a picture of three store in the November photo competition. I bought 6 of them at 360 kgs average in late May. Now they were value the day I bought but today across the six I think ( I may be wrong) they are above 500kgs average. Too many finishers are caught in the 60-100 day system. or a calf to beef system.

Two sharp men were making excuses today one lad sold summer store that left less than 100 each. The other lad sold over 30 months (used to draw payment) cattle that left less than 200 each. As I said to one of them if any animal leaves less than 500 each I question why I bought them. Yes I make mistakes but I understand that I need 350/head to break even.

Will some lad copy my system he is more than welcome to, but to survive he need to adapt every 2-3 years,

By the way I could look a right idiot this time next year if assumptions are incorrect.

Fair play to you putting yourself out in the open like that! 500 is a lot to expect but you know your game very well. At the moment we have a lot of extra feed so I was thinking of buying a few to eat it but no point unless they would leave anything otherwise it’s just work

Bass Reeves · 12-11-2019 10:06am

squinn2912 wrote: »

Fair play to you putting yourself out in the open like that! 500 is a lot to expect but you know your game very well. At the moment we have a lot of extra feed so I was thinking of buying a few to eat it but no point unless they would leave anything otherwise it’s just work

The first thing is you need to be able to get animal performance. No point in putting 150 kgs on cattle over a grazing season you need to be getting 200kgs +. Every cost need to be looked at and you need to stop bidding when the margin is no longer there.

However stores are becoming scarce again they will climb in price from now on. It's easier to get a 600euro store to 1100 than it is to get a 900euro store to 1400. A big change is that sine BSE has been eradicated you get less stunted runtish cattle when you buy poorer quality lots.

Muckit · 12-11-2019 11:42am

You'd hardly get a bad dog for €600 round here.

But l 100% agree with your valuations and where things need to be.

squinn2912 · 12-11-2019 1:34pm

Muckit wrote: »

You'd hardly get a bad dog for €600 round here.

But l 100% agree with your valuations and where things need to be.

As a rule of thumb I’d have thought an animal should be making £1/day on farm

Bass Reeves · 12-11-2019 2:37pm

Muckit wrote: »

You'd hardly get a bad dog for €600 round here.

But l 100% agree with your valuations and where things need to be.

Bad dogs can be where the money is

Welding Rod · 12-11-2019 3:36pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Bad dogs can be where the money is

Talked to a couple last week, who went to Australia for almost a month to see family etc,.
Paid €32 per day, to have their dog and cat taken care of in one of those kennel / cattery places!!!! They had to supply the food on topðŸ¥¶.
Jeez .... who would be arzing with cattle??

Anto_Meath · 12-11-2019 3:39pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Bad dogs can be where the money is

True and if the bad dog is cheap enough you might be able to get two of them for the price of a good one. Plus if he isn't badly treated when young they can turn out ok. Had 7 FRs bought last December 400gks at €530 average €1,078 last week. Once they got their first dose you could see them improve every week.

Bass Reeves · 12-11-2019 5:21pm

Anto_Meath wrote: »

True and if the bad dog is cheap enough you might be able to get two of them for the price of a good one. Plus if he isn't badly treated when young they can turn out ok. Had 7 FRs bought last December 400gks at €530 average €1,078 last week. Once they got their first dose you could see them improve every week.

They probably killed 340 kgs DW so gained 280-289 kgs LW in 11 months better than 0.8kgs gain/day. 540 euro gross margin and more than likely over 30 months and O- grading or worse.

kk.man · 12-11-2019 5:40pm

Anto_Meath wrote: »

True and if the bad dog is cheap enough you might be able to get two of them for the price of a good one. Plus if he isn't badly treated when young they can turn out ok. Had 7 FRs bought last December 400gks at €530 average €1,078 last week. Once they got their first dose you could see them improve every week.

At best you probably had 250 out of them net but more than likely 200. Not bad going for almost 12 months and fellas be laughing at you in the mart why are you buying those yokes. You probably had more and far less hassle than the guy who has tied up his money in a suckler cow and a fancy 900e weanling for his efforts.
I have nothing against suckler farmers but just showing that there is more and better outside the box.

Cavanjack · 12-11-2019 6:44pm

There is as much in a friesian (if not more) as any but they have to bought at the right money. Bought a load of hungry yearlings off a dealer one spring a few years ago. 50/50 p’s and o’s. they done .98kg a day on grass for 200 days. Was happy with that but I paid too much for them.
If we were all buying stores in the summer to kill the following Summer there’d be nothing in it for anyone either. The way I see the thing at the minute one man has to make a loss for the next lad to make anything.
Bought 8 forward store limousine bullocks at the end of the mart last December. Killed them in June without meal and made 600 gross margin on them. I made a nice twist on them. The lad that reared them for nearly two years probably lost money on them.

Albert Johnson · 12-11-2019 7:10pm

Cavanjack wrote: »

There is as much in a friesian (if not more) as any but they have to bought at the right money. Bought a load of hungry yearlings off a dealer one spring a few years ago. 50/50 p’s and o’s. they done .98kg a day on grass for 200 days. Was happy with that but I paid too much for them.
If we were all buying stores in the summer to kill the following Summer there’d be nothing in it for anyone either. The way I see the thing at the minute one man has to make a loss for the next lad to make anything.
Bought 8 forward store limousine bullocks at the end of the mart last December. Killed them in June without meal and made 600 gross margin on them. I made a nice twist on them. The lad that reared them for nearly two years probably lost money on them.

+1 on there not being a margin for more than one operater. The only way to make a turn on any cattle atm is for either the buyer or seller to get burnt, in other words for you to make money the previous man has to lose it. This is only business of course but it's not sustainable in the long term, once bitten twice shy comes to mind. You can only squeeze so much out of anything before there's nothing left and the weanling, store and indeed fat cattle producer is fast approaching this point.

On the face of it it seems very short sighted of the processor's to put such a strangle hold on there primary producers, there current treatment of the beef producers is jeopardizing future confidence and supplies. I'm undecided as to whether they (factories) are simply showing reckless bravado in an attempt to sink the boot in us (farmer's) when we're down or whether they can import sufficient amounts of product and are prepared to continue without us if necessary. Either way anyone that thinks that the current status quo can or will continue is misguided imo. All facet's of the beef production cycle are equally in danger and we're too busy bickering amongst ourselves to see who's really pulling the rug out from under us.

SuperTortoise · 12-11-2019 8:33pm

Albert Johnson wrote: »

+1 on there not being a margin for more than one operater. The only way to make a turn on any cattle atm is for either the buyer or seller to get burnt, in other words for you to make money the previous man has to lose it. This is only business of course but it's not sustainable in the long term, once bitten twice shy comes to mind. You can only squeeze so much out of anything before there's nothing left and the weanling, store and indeed fat cattle producer is fast approaching this point.

On the face of it it seems very short sighted of the processor's to put such a strangle hold on there primary producers, there current treatment of the beef producers is jeopardizing future confidence and supplies. I'm undecided as to whether they (factories) are simply showing reckless bravado in an attempt to sink the boot in us (farmer's) when we're down or whether they can import sufficient amounts of product and are prepared to continue without us if necessary. Either way anyone that thinks that the current status quo can or will continue is misguided imo. All facet's of the beef production cycle are equally in danger and we're too busy bickering amongst ourselves to see who's really pulling the rug out from under us.

May well be the end goal of the factories and retailers to squeeze the Irish farmer out of existance and then they have free reign to import all the beef they need for much less, works out cheaper for everyone to squeeze until we can take no more rather than paying us to use our land as a carbon sink a la the 5% reduction in nitrates via the BEEP scheme.

Dinzee Conlee · 12-11-2019 9:02pm

To be honest though lads - farmers have been beating the same drum of ‘we can’t afford to keep doing this’ for a long time, and guess what - lads are still farming. The line of ‘only profit for one lad in an animal’ has been going for a good while, it’s not new...

Then there is another thread on here, where a few people have said farming isn’t all about the financials...

Farmers say they can’t afford to keep doing it, then use non-financial, sentimental reasons to justify doing it. And round and round we go... The factories know this...

Anto_Meath · 12-11-2019 9:15pm

kk.man wrote: »

At best you probably had 250 out of them net but more than likely 200. Not bad going for almost 12 months and fellas be laughing at you in the mart why are you buying those yokes. You probably had more and far less hassle than the guy who has tied up his money in a suckler cow and a fancy 900e weanling for his efforts.
I have nothing against suckler farmers but just showing that there is more and better outside the box.

Ah you are right. I am never to fussed about what I buy once I think there is a turn in them. I have suckler cows too and I sell most of them off as store heifers or forward store bullocks as my land just wouldnt but the fat on Lm without meal but it will on Fr, AA Hex. Them Fr were killed just under 30 months and 4 of them graded O's so they done ok in my book. I think if people work to the strengths of their own farm & let others do the trend setting then you will make money.

Hagimalone · 12-11-2019 10:10pm

Bass, how do you give the cattle the minerals? Do you just put it on the silage?What brand are you using?
What you think of mineral bolus?

jntsnk · 13-11-2019 12:36am

The BPS keeps a lot of fellas in the game. Without it they might realise the true loss in beef rearing

Bass Reeves · 13-11-2019 2:16am

Hagimalone wrote: »

Bass, how do you give the cattle the minerals? Do you just put it on the silage?What brand are you using?
What you think of mineral bolus?

I can feed both sides of my pens, I sprinkle on the silage at the front and the ground at the back.. Bolus's are again expensive and you have to handle animals to give them to them.

Bass Reeves · 14-11-2019 9:41pm

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/freisian-steers-more-cost-effective-option-to-finish-compared-to-continentals/

Teagasc must be following boards. It not like I have not being telling you all along

memorystick · 15-11-2019 1:03pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/freisian-steers-more-cost-effective-option-to-finish-compared-to-continentals/

Teagasc must be following boards. It not like I have not being telling you all along

I’ve a batch of them. Can’t believe how much they’ve grown in 2 months. Should be horses by the summer. My only concern is selling over 30 months.

kk.man · 15-11-2019 1:39pm

memorystick wrote: »

I’ve a batch of them. Can’t believe how much they’ve grown in 2 months. Should be horses by the summer. My only concern is selling over 30 months.

Feed them hard in last 2 months before you want them killed. Draft at FS3 no problems. You will be surprised by the weight.

Bass Reeves · 15-11-2019 1:51pm

memorystick wrote: »

I’ve a batch of them. Can’t believe how much they’ve grown in 2 months. Should be horses by the summer. My only concern is selling over 30 months.

As KK aside feed them for last 6-8 weeks. Use a maize/barley/soya hulls mix.3 kgs/ day. They need plenty of grass. Try to get them out on grass as early as possible. Chinese markets are mainly for cheaper cuts but under 30 months and they want cattle from unrestricted herds.

I expect a lot of these type of cattle to e flat priced next year.

Friesians are great to put on weight if they get plenty of grass.. a lot of Friesians can flesh easier than you think.

squinn2912 · 15-11-2019 2:00pm

Why would you let them run over 30 months? If you're happy with their growth then surely you can pump the feed to them a little bit earlier. Thing about the fresians they'll grow into big stags of things but it's a lot of bone and frame.

My 5 sims off fresian cows are massive heifers now. As tall as a lot of the cows. Not much shape but I'm happy that if the calves come out a bit more shapy then they'll be 100%

kk.man · 15-11-2019 2:30pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Why would you let them run over 30 months? If you're happy with their growth then surely you can pump the feed to them a little bit earlier. Thing about the fresians they'll grow into big stags of things but it's a lot of bone and frame.

My 5 sims off fresian cows are massive heifers now. As tall as a lot of the cows. Not much shape but I'm happy that if the calves come out a bit more shapy then they'll be 100%

I'd cash in before 30 months. I recon like Bass says anything over 30 months might not be wanted if Chinese Market takes off. I've done them at 24 months and paid me much better than 30 months.

Anto_Meath · 15-11-2019 3:00pm

If you can get them to grass early in the spring and keep the grass in front of them all summer 8 weeks before you intentend to kill them start giving them plenty of meal as Bass said 3 -4 kgs a day to get the fat score up to a 2+ minimum and you will have no bother killing them under 30 months. If you notice any bit of a cough at all dose the lot of them even with the cheap stuff. FR are great cattle to thrive if they get half a chance. But similarly if they get a set back then it can take them a wee while to get going again.

kk.man · 15-11-2019 3:08pm

Anto_Meath wrote: »

If you can get them to grass early in the spring and keep the grass in front of them all summer 8 weeks before you intentend to kill them start giving them plenty of meal as Bass said 3 -4 kgs a day to get the fat score up to a 2+ minimum and you will have no bother killing them under 30 months. If you notice any bit of a cough at all dose the lot of them even with the cheap stuff. FR are great cattle to thrive if they get half a chance. But similarly if they get a set back then it can take them a wee while to get going again.

Yes the coughing caught me out in the past. Recon it was lung worm. The ones coughing be harder to finish alright.

Anto_Meath · 15-11-2019 3:20pm

kk.man as a wise auld boy who would be feeding maybe 200 FR bullocks at any time said to me "there is no money in feeding parasites" .
If you are buying in these type of cattle a lot of the time a good dose is the first thing they should get, I always give bought cattle closamectin pour on when they arrive home as it kills most of parasites.

mf240 · 15-11-2019 3:28pm

When buying friesans you don't have to compete with the egos and showmen

Bass Reeves · 15-11-2019 3:59pm

Anto_Meath wrote: »

kk.man as a wise auld boy who would be feeding maybe 200 FR bullocks at any time said to me "there is no money in feeding parasites" .
If you are buying in these type of cattle a lot of the time a good dose is the first thing they should get, I always give bought cattle closamectin pour on when they arrive home as it kills most of parasites.

I use a ivermectin super( either Anime+ or Bimectin +)l lately on buy in. Gauge there weight and dose at 50kgs above. It kills all worms, lice, warables and fluke at about the 8 week stage. I do them again at housing and will use either trodax or Albex at the appropriate stage to kill rest of fluke.

I dose use either ivermectin pour on or injection then during the following summer period depending on time to slaughter. I dose about 7-9 weeks after turnout and again in August. Copper is given in April as well. Minerals over the winter.

The thrive on Friesian from turn out to August is often staggering. But you need to be buying them right to turn a margin

Bass Reeves · 15-11-2019 4:01pm

mf240 wrote: »

When buying friesans you don't have to compete with the egos and showmen

As well dealers find it harder to find victim's for Friesians that are over priced.

kk.man · 15-11-2019 8:55pm

Anto_Meath wrote: »

kk.man as a wise auld boy who would be feeding maybe 200 FR bullocks at any time said to me "there is no money in feeding parasites" .
If you are buying in these type of cattle a lot of the time a good dose is the first thing they should get, I always give bought cattle closamectin pour on when they arrive home as it kills most of parasites.

I gave mine closamectin pour on at turn out too but found once the end of August or start of September came the coughing started. I'm going to nip it in the butt by giving them a cheaper dose aswell later like the start of August from next year.

Cavanjack · 15-11-2019 10:26pm

kk.man wrote: »

I gave mine closamectin pour on at turn out too but found once the end of August or start of September came the coughing started. I'm going to nip it in the butt by giving them a cheaper dose aswell later like the start of August from next year.

Stores all get Levefas here on arrival. Then a fluke dose round January. That’s it till they are killed. Never have to dose anything over two year old here. Yearling get the same treatment on arrival but are dosed again in July/August.

dodo mommy · 16-11-2019 7:57am

What minerals would lads recommend for weanlings over the winter, and with prices at present are ye meal feeding weanlings.

Bass Reeves · 16-11-2019 9:55am

dodo mommy wrote: »

What minerals would lads recommend for weanlings over the winter, and with prices at present are ye meal feeding weanlings.

I would always meal feed weanlings aboit 1.5kgs/ head. I get superchoice from dairy gold. But the minerals are very grey now compared to a very brown colour 2 years ago

Base price · 16-11-2019 2:28pm

dodo mommy wrote: »

What minerals would lads recommend for weanlings over the winter, and with prices at present are ye meal feeding weanlings.

We have been using agrimin boluses - small trace for calves and all trace for older cattle for years. They work out at about €5.30 for calves and €5.70 for older cattle and they work for 180 days. IMO when you administer a bolus you know that the animal is getting the required minerals/vitamins as opposed to using bagged minerals where individual intake can be hit or miss.

https://www.agrimin.co.uk/all-tracer-cattle-0

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