"Why I did not report my rapist"

DrPhilG · 24-02-2017 12:59pm

seamus wrote: »

To use the tea analogy;

"Will you have a cup of tea?".
"No, thanks"
"Ah, go on, you will".
"OK so".

"Will you have a slice of cake too?"
"No, thanks"
"Ah, go on, you will"
"OK so".

Holy shlt, Mrs Doyle was a sex pest?

Ps I'm not making light of this subject. Rape is a disgusting crime and I would have no issue with the death sentence as a punishment.

But what is being discussed in this thread wasn't rape.

In my opinion.

Wibbs · 24-02-2017 1:00pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Don't bs me with 'these vocal feminist' . I deplore term rape culture and I have no love for extremes of feminism but this idea that 'people don't really mean no' is idiotic. Sure every woman who kisses someone wants to have sex with them straight away and no is just false modesty? Give me a break, what is so hard to understand about no? Especially when having sex for the first time and having no experience of how someone communicates. Why is it ok to just continue instead of pausing and asking 'are you sure?'.

Point out to me, where I said contradicted any of the above. Ever. Please and thanks. Seems like you're having a different argument entirely.

Deleted User wrote: »

And that's why one person's version of events written for a blog years later is something you can't really draw much concrete from.

Nail on the head. Though publishing such things as facts does muddy the water.

seamus wrote: »

It's a weird one.

Consent is simple. It's very easy. The UK police did a great video about consent where they used the analogy of a cup of tea.

What muddies the waters here is her "soft" refusal.

To use the tea analogy;

"Will you have a cup of tea?".
"No, thanks"
"Ah, go on, you will".
"OK so".

"Will you have a slice of cake too?"
"No, thanks"
"Ah, go on, you will"
"OK so".

And so forth. By the end of the exchange the visitor has had two cups of tea, a slice of cake and a ham sandwich even though they're not hungry. All because they were too polite to say no.

It's not really a "rape culture" thing, but more of a general culture thing. That is, a culture which suggests that a refusal is only a refusal when a person says "no" a second time, and a culture which says that being assertive is rude.

The case in the OP is a weird one because it's so multifactorial. He shouldn't have proceeded after she said "no", but no rape occurred because ultimately she did consent, even if it was reluctant. Consent was given freely, he did not force anything, she pressured herself into saying yes. Consent by peer pressure is still consent.

But then there is a sexual culture issue; men are taught that women have to be convinced to have sex. Women are taught to put up a little resistance lest they be seen as "easy". So you can see why people end up in this quagmire. The man thinks the woman is just playing the game, the woman doesn't want to be thought of as someone who breaks the rules of "the game". And she ends up having sex that she didn't want, while he pats himself on the back for a successful seduction.

I guess in terms of "consent classes", this is more something that needs to be drilled into sex education. That for all parties, while you must stop when the other person says stop, the other person should ensure (for their sake as much as anything) that they're clear about where they're drawing the line.
That there is no "game", don't be ashamed to have sex when you want it, and don't be afraid to firmly call a halt when the other person doesn't know where the boundary is.

I'm with you there.

meeeeh wrote: »

So a woman that went to sleep, didn't invite the person to the bedroom, said no repeatedly should be educated how to communicate properly.

Got it.

Yes TBH. Certainly in this case. She was snogging and shagging this guy who she didn't apparently fancy and even though she didn't want to shag him again and said no, still went ahead with it, because it was apparently easier to go through with it, than I dunno, tell him to eff off, it's over, we're not having sex. If as she recounts she said no and he continued he was a twat and no mistake, but mixed messages going on there.

And before someone goes off on some daft "rape apologist" nonsense and just to be very clear here, I do NOT condone his actions. He takes responsibility for his actions, but IMH she should take some responsibility for hers. That's in "oh jaysus, you can't think that" territory it seems.

Penn · 24-02-2017 1:04pm

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

The problem/ambiguity comes into it because after saying no she continued to be voluntarily intimate with him. If she is just saying no but then continuing with what they are doing, you have to agree that she isn't making it very clear whats going through her head? He wasnt forceful or aggressive by her own admission.

This means there were definite mixed messages and the guy could realistically have interpreted her "no" to mean "slow down" or "not yet".

She says in her writing that she told him she didn't want to have sex.

Again, I agree she kissed him the whole way through even after telling him not to undress her. But consent to kissing isn't consent to sex, and whatever confusion about mixed messages with the kissing for me, went out the window with "I told him I didn’t want to have sex." If it happened as she described, to me that's where the line was crossed.

24-02-2017 1:05pm

I'm awful glad that there's a huge range of positions one can take between lauding the courage of this pretty dubious account and telling the victims of rape how they "should" react.

I'm in the middle there somewhere. I'd encourage everyone to remind themselves that the middle is still there and that nobody is under pressure to grab the pitchfork here.

Lots of good posts in the thread from both sides, but some of the comments towards posters who are sharing their experiences of sexual assault are way out of line.

seamus · 24-02-2017 1:07pm

ibarelycare wrote: »

If she didn't really mean no then why did she continue to kiss him? Her words said one thing, her actions said another. "No" definitely does not always mean no.

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

The problem/ambiguity comes into it because after saying no she continued to be voluntarily intimate with him. If she is just saying no but then continuing with what they are doing, you have to agree that she isn't making it very clear whats going through her head? He wasnt forceful or aggressive by her own admission.

This means there were definite mixed messages and the guy could realistically have interpreted her "no" to mean "slow down" or "not yet".

I was kind of thinking along these lines too, but to be fair her statement does say

I told him I didn’t want to have sex. We kissed some more.

Kissing, nor continuing to kiss, does not mean you are open to having sex.
She claims to have been clear about not wanting to have sex. Continuing to kiss him isn't a mixed message, because there isn't (or shouldn't be) an implication that kissing will lead to sex.

This is really where the issue lies. In his mind, sex was implied, for all sorts of reasons. Rather obtusely, every time she refused and then consented, probably convinced him further that she did want sex.

And this is why it's way more complex than it looks. No, he shouldn't assume anything. No, she shouldn't have to be a mind reader to decide, "this guy is not getting it, I have to stop". But at the same time she did consent and the act which occurred was not malicious.

At best, it was a misunderstanding - he didn't understand that she actually didn't want to have sex.

I think what makes the scenario contentious is the presumption of fault. She has claimed rape, which implies that someone is to blame. And makes all of us search for blame.

But that's actually begging the question. In real terms, no rape occurred, nobody is to blame.

It's something which happened, and which she regrets. But both parties consented and no malice was involved, therefore there is no "blame".

Mountainsandh · 24-02-2017 1:07pm

bluewolf wrote: »

And people think we don't need consent classes. This thread should be held up as an example at one of them

I don't think we need consent classes. We need young people with better communication skills, and young people who have a better understanding of personal responsibility and choices.

I don't think it should be deemed outrageous to voice that.
I don't think it's right to absolve young people (ladies in this instance) of all responsibility for their well-being.

I think if the justice system can be trusted to decide if events leading to death were murder or manslaughter, then it is also of its remit to decide in less obvious cases if a situation was rape or not, and this could all rest on how successful communication was, and whose responsibility it was to communicate.

Little CuChulainn · 24-02-2017 1:09pm

valoren wrote: »

Remunerative attention seeking.

It's a social media phenomenon, cry rape, generate traffic to your blog site.
More traffic will mean more potential for advertising equals more revenue.

Crying rape doesn't drive people to your website. It's the people that fall over themselves to call you a liar that does.

kjl · 24-02-2017 1:09pm

I am male

I once met this asian girl in a restaurant and we clicked almost instantly.

I got her number and 2 days later we met up for some drinks in The pool hall upstairs in the palace.

About 30 min into the meeting we are already kissing and we are jelling very well. Fast forward about 2 hours and we are back in her place.

Kissing leads to heavy petting. I didn't think I was going to get this far in the night so I didn't bring any condoms.

She is undressing me and she takes off her underwear. Now I am rock hard, she is probably the sexyist thing I have ever seen in my life but aware I don't have protection I tell her that "I don't think we should have sex."

She grabs my penis and starts trying to put it into her vagina.

I stop her. I said "No". She doesn't listen and continues to try and force my penis into her vagina. I am pulling back and again I said "no, not tonight"

Once again she doesn't listen and then pins me to the bed and inserts my penis into her vagina. I am in a couple of inches in when I say "Listen, I really like you but I think we are going a little too fast". This seems to egg her on and she really starts to F%&k me hard.

This might I add ended up being the hottest night of sex I have ever had.

Was I raped? I said no repeatedly and I was completely ignored.

The answer is no and neither was Rosemary McCabe. She is such a clickbait whore that she is actually making light of real rape cases with her moment of weakness.

Don't know what that guy saw in her tbh.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 24-02-2017 1:12pm

^ for whatbits worth if she was forceful while you said no that's rape

Little CuChulainn · 24-02-2017 1:14pm

LexieOnRale wrote: »

^ for whatbits worth if she was forceful while you said no that's rape

Not under Irish law. A woman can't rape a man under Irish law.

RoisinClare6 · 24-02-2017 1:14pm

Not every reaction to rape sexual assault is the same.

Yesterday I was watching TV and a woman who was on the tube and this guy kept grabbing her ass. My neighbour and boyfriend were saying why didn't she scream or knee him etc. I had to remind them its not that easy. I was in a situation where I was going asleep after a concert when I was 19 and a male friend decided he'd put his hand up my top and one down my trousers...I said no numerous times and he still went on. I lay there frozen at that point terrified and after a few minutes something kicked in my brain and I ran out of that hotel room and stayed outside for the night. So if I had of just lay in my state of fear and not ran of would it mean I wasn't sexually assaulted? Because I didn't try to save myself? No

Not everybody reacts the same some women in my situation could have screamed some like me could have ran but others might stay in that state of fear or shock and can not do anything.

So just because someone lay there it doesn't mean they want it just because they didn't scream or run it doesn't mean they want it either. There is no standard form of reaction to being raped or sexually assaulted. So just because someone doesn't react to it like you think they should it doesn't make it any less of an assault.

Omackeral · 24-02-2017 1:14pm

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Ah Rosemary if you're reading this, well done. Yes it was rape.

Aren't you the one who makes your very own boyfriend verbally ask you if it's ok to have sex now during a kiss? Yeah, I won't be taking your ideas on sex seriously at all. God love him btw, no spontaneous up-against-the-wall fun for him, poor guy.

24-02-2017 1:14pm

I was binge watching a box set with a mate recently. We got to the last episode and he said he was too tired to go on.

"Please," I said "we got this far, do not flake on me now".

He said he had an early start in the morning and wanted to call it a night.

"Go on," I said "They are only 20 minutes long each, we can do this"

After a few more protests I added "Do not leave me doing this on my own, we came this far together, the finish line is so close".

Then as a ploy I started the episode running and the opening credits and music and the like.

In the end he said ok and flopped back down in the couch and we watched the Season Finale and he went home to bed.

If it is established that what is described in the OP is "rape" then please let me know, so I can turn myself in for kidnapping.

neonsofa · 24-02-2017 1:15pm

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I don't think we need consent classes. We need young people with better communication skills, and young people who have a better understanding of personal responsibility and choices.

I don't think it should be deemed outrageous to voice that.
I don't think it's right to absolve young people (ladies in this instance) of all responsibility for their well-being.

I think if the justice system can be trusted to decide if events leading to death were murder or manslaughter, then it is also of its remit to decide in less obvious cases if a situation was rape or not, and this could all rest on how successful communication was, and whose responsibility it was to communicate.

Could consent classes (as part of sexual education generally) not include explaining to young people that they need to vocalise their consent or lack thereof? Explain that it can't be up to the man to ask/determine consent and that ambiguity can lead to a dangerous situation for the woman (e.g. could lead to sex she doesn't want if she doesn't stand up for herself) and the man (e.g. could be accused of rape for assuming consent). Discussing these types of issues and how they come about- , not a lesson to men telling them they need to explicitly ask for consent from poor vulnerable women, but more discussions on what constitutes consent and how it can be misinterpreted and empower people to take responsibility to avoid these scenarios.

gossamer · 24-02-2017 1:19pm

Using the topic of rape to gain traffic to your blog is shameful. But I'm not surprised in the least. Bloggers/ vloggers/ "social influencers", will do anything to make a quick buck. Rosemary MacCabe has molded herself into Ireland's answer to Lena Dunham over the past couple of years. And if it worked for Lena and co, it will work for Rosemary. It's shameless self-promotion and fairly low, even by narcissistic blogger standards. That post of hers achieved exactly what she wanted.

And if you disagree with the content *at all*, God help you. The perfect storm. Well done, Rosemary.

One eyed Jack · 24-02-2017 1:20pm

Wibbs wrote: »

He takes responsibility for his actions, but IMH she should take some responsibility for hers. That's in "oh jaysus, you can't think that" territory it seems.

His actions started though long before he was ever even in the bedroom. He pursued her upstairs into the bedroom, he knew he wanted to have sex with her. It doesn't take wild leaps to suggest that he knew she wasn't really into it, and that's when it was his personal responsibility to leave her alone. Then he wouldn't have to be thinking in hindsight how he'd crossed a line.

As awkward conversations go, I personally would be very reluctant to say to someone who felt they had been raped that "well, you have to take some responsibility for your actions here too!", because I've seen it so many times where people can pressure people into doing something they don't want to do, and I've seen people ignore every red flag because it didn't suit them to acknowledge those flags. That's exactly why some people will end up in court accused of rape, and one of the numerous different degrees of rape that exist in Irish law.

These kinds of attitudes were exactly why marital rape laws were introduced, because before then a man couldn't be charged with the rape of his wife. It's not nearly so simple some posters here need it to be unfortunately.

Omackeral · 24-02-2017 1:20pm

kjl wrote: »

The answer is no and neither was Rosemary McCabe. She is such a clickbait whore that she is actually making light of real rape cases

Oh unfortunate choice of words there...

Calhoun · 24-02-2017 1:20pm

Neyite wrote: »

You are right, and Stanford was a poor choice of example, apologies. I'd like to think that you are right when you say that the law is hardening up. For what it's worth, I'm all for equality. I despise the kind of "fwoar, get in laddie" reaction to an adult female sexually assaulting a male student for example - I believe that her sentence should be the equivalent of a male teacher/female student. My concern is that by promoting or allowing grey areas (not necessarily the subject of this thread but in a wider view) or by saying that the "no" was the wrong type of "no" it only damages everyone in the scenario.

I've a son. I want to teach him to be the kind of guy that when noticing that the girl (or guy!) he is kissing is not into it or is reluctant /drunk/falling asleep, or says no that he stops right away. That the correct action to take is to put that person in a taxi home, find their friend, or tuck into bed clothed and unmolested. If it turns out that the person kinda sorta did want sex, then they learn to be clearer the next time about what they want and not bandy the word "no" around in a half hearted and ambiguous way.

I am also for equality and feel what's good for the goose should be good for the gander, when it comes to sexual abuse the law should be universal in its sentancing.

My concern is from the other side, identity politics as seen in the US is very damaging to society and when we get to a situation where just by being a certain sex equates to being a rapist or privileged is ridiculous.

Perpetuating a rape culture is done for a simple reason and that is to eventually get legislation across the board for one sex while being punitive to the other.

I say all this as someone who has two daughters I'd hope if something happened they would be knowledgeable enough to push back but also of it came to it report the incident. I will certainly be educating them and making sure they know this.

meeeeh · 24-02-2017 1:21pm

Calhoun wrote: »

Exactly yah if this crime is one of the worst things that can be done to a person, you don't just lie there and take it you fight your corner.

Isn't it lucky that we all respond the exactly same socially acceptable way.

Btw my response was to freeze and then I managed to get away. I didn't scream, I didn't fight, I didn't raise alarm, I ran away and hid among other people and kept quiet about it. And I felt embarrassed about not reacting quickly enough, about not hitting him, about having blond hair and wearing a t shirt that was low cut. That was my reaction and yet it doesn't make what happened to me any more excusable or any less wrong.

AoifeCon1996 · 24-02-2017 1:22pm

Where the hell are the moderators on this thread??? If a thread about bloggers goes up and someone even dares to name them, they are there in a flash handing out bans left right and centre. Yet here we have multiple people publicly naming this woman, demeaning everything she has said and making fun of rape yet they are nowhere to be seen??

This thread is literally ripping this woman apart and proving that rape culture is still very much a thing and how ****ing uneducated people are in this country, still. I had to stop reading because it was actually painful to see people make fun of someone who had opened up about their experience of rape. Then they wonder why people don't report it or ever tell people about it? "its not rape if you didnt report it" eh NO, they dont report it because of people like YOU who will come and make fun of what they're saying and call them attention seeking and every name under the sun. They dont report it because you take it upon yourself to say that they are wrong when you've absolutely NO RIGHT to. Discusting.

AoifeCon1996 · 24-02-2017 1:26pm

She did not use it to drive traffic to her site. Her intention was clearly to let other people out there who have gone through the same experience that it is okay to react in whatever way they do. She did it on order to battle people like you who still encourage this stigma about rape and think that they have the right to decide when someone is raped or not. There is a battle everyday to stop this narrow mindedness and stupidity and I think she was trying to tackle that. You making it out as a tactic to get traffic proves all the reasons that she did are very much valid.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 24-02-2017 1:27pm

Aoife, I have been raped myself, almost 11 years ago, and i find it quite insulting that women who withdraw consent after sex and then shout "rape" and feel it trivialises the word "rape".
She is a journalist and has published an article. Why isn't that fair game to discuss?

24-02-2017 1:30pm

AoifeCon1996 wrote: »

Where the hell are the moderators on this thread??? If a thread about bloggers goes up and someone even dares to name them, they are there in a flash handing out bans left right and centre. Yet here we have multiple people publicly naming this woman, demeaning everything she has said and making fun of rape yet they are nowhere to be seen??

This thread is literally ripping this woman apart and proving that rape culture is still very much a thing and how ****ing uneducated people are in this country, still. I had to stop reading because it was actually painful to see people make fun of someone who had opened up about their experience of rape. Then they wonder why people don't report it or ever tell people about it? "its not rape if you didnt report it" eh NO, they dont report it because of people like YOU who will come and make fun of what they're saying and call them attention seeking and every name under the sun. They dont report it because you take it upon yourself to say that they are wrong when you've absolutely NO RIGHT to. Discusting.

She posts her public blog under her own name. It seems fair topic for discussion, given the very nature of the topic there will be a wide range of views and likely emotional reactions on either side.

I agree about some of the responses to posts where people discuss their own experiences. Perhaps a mod will be along within a period of time to address, perhaps not.

Nobody is literally ripping anything apart. I'm not sure responding to your level of distress would be appropriate but this is a thread discussing a controversial subject raised publicly by someone who would be very much aware that it's controversial, and frankly raised in a manner that encourages controversy. This one had flags on it before you ever clicked and started reading.

valoren · 24-02-2017 1:30pm

Rape is a serious topic.

When someone claims they were raped, blogs about it publically, then they invite people to ask pointed questions, publically, particularly when their version of the rape in question is subjective to those readers.

To try and shut down those same pertinent questions, surrounding traffic generating attention seeking is unwelcome.

Boom_Bap · 24-02-2017 1:31pm

AoifeCon1996 wrote: »

Where the hell are the moderators on this thread??? If a thread about bloggers goes up and someone even dares to name them, they are there in a flash handing out bans left right and centre. Yet here we have multiple people publicly naming this woman, demeaning everything she has said and making fun of rape yet they are nowhere to be seen??

This thread is literally ripping this woman apart and proving that rape culture is still very much a thing and how ****ing uneducated people are in this country, still. I had to stop reading because it was actually painful to see people make fun of someone who had opened up about their experience of rape. Then they wonder why people don't report it or ever tell people about it? "its not rape if you didnt report it" eh NO, they dont report it because of people like YOU who will come and make fun of what they're saying and call them attention seeking and every name under the sun. They dont report it because you take it upon yourself to say that they are wrong when you've absolutely NO RIGHT to. Discusting.

Hi!

Please report any posts that you believe need attention. This is a fast moving thread and I personally am reading and trying to keep up with it. There has been some posts/posters already been attended to throughout the course of the thread.

I think that this is a very important discussion in today's climate and that there is alot of important points being raised. Heavy handed moderating will ruin that flow of conversation. Agreed that attacking the person in question personally is not cool, but she has put her story out on the internet for discussion so I don't think we can supress the discussion.

Please PM myself or any of the AH mods if you would like to talk more about this.

kunst nugget · 24-02-2017 1:31pm

AoifeCon1996 wrote: »

She did not use it to drive traffic to her site.

Honestly, I would have been less inclined to think that if I hadn't seen the crying selfie she posted up afterwards.

fitzytour · 24-02-2017 1:33pm

I cannot believe the low Rosemary has stooped to with this article! I think it is completely irresponsible. I am not for a minute devaluing the seriousness of rape or sexual assault but to suggest that she was raped when she continued to kiss him etc. is so insulting to actual victims of rape! She is completely devaluing the seriousness of the word rape all for sake of a few hits on her blog! I used to respect her, especially after her stance on the Gossies but I have lost complete respect for her after this article, I was actually disgusted reading it!

AoifeCon1996 · 24-02-2017 1:34pm

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Aoife, I have been raped myself, almost 11 years ago, and i find it quite insulting that women who withdraw consent after sex and then shout "rape" and feel it trivialises the word "rape".
She is a journalist and has published an article. Why isn't that fair game to discuss?

I'm sorry to hear that, I really am.
The thing is, she didn't shout rape. I'm almost sure that she is in her 30's (?), this happened almost 9 years ago and even after being a journalist for how many years, a blogger for almost 2 (?) and having endless conversations about rape with multiple people on public platforms, she never shouted rape. I always thought that she was just someone who felt strongly about it, never a victim of it. I do honestly think that as she said, she was inspired by someone else's post to share her own story, after multiple opportunities to. I think that that was the inspiration here. I think that she did it in order to help her readers who have also gone through it and it was her own attempt to tackle the stigma surrounding rape. As a victim of rape, I totally respect your opinion to publicly talk about it or to not discuss it, but Rosemary had her own experience and she choose to discuss it publicly as it was her story to tell - nobody elses. I dont see why this is such an issue?

And yes she is a journalist and yes she put this blog post out and i totally get that there are people who will disagree and say horrible stuff but my point is why isn't any of this being moderated (the particularity bad comments not just everything) when the mention of a bloggers name was under such moderation?

seamus · 24-02-2017 1:35pm

AoifeCon1996 wrote: »

She did it on order to battle people like you who still encourage this stigma about rape and think that they have the right to decide when someone is raped or not.

Rape is not a soft and fluffy, "however you feel yourself" thing.

It's a legal term. A very specific legal term, with wide-ranging implications.

Penetration which occurs without consent is rape. It's really that straightforward.

Rape cannot be defined as, "If you feel you were raped, then you were raped". If someone is going to lay bare the details of what happened, and call it rape, then in fact the people who read those facts do have the right to decide whether it's rape or not. Because rape is a specific thing, not an emotion or a feeling.

You cannot "decide" that you have been raped. You either were or were not, regardless of how you feel about it.

AoifeCon1996 · 24-02-2017 1:37pm

Just to clarify with replies- I totally agree that people are entitled to disagree and discuss it, but not to compare rape to a cup of tea with a friend or to attack a person as attention seeking and multiple other things. I respect the respectful comments of people with genuine thoughts and disagreements, but there are so many horrible, unnecessary things being said - thats all I was refering to

muddypaws · 24-02-2017 1:38pm

AoifeCon1996 wrote: »

Just to clarify with replies- I totally agree that people are entitled to disagree and discuss it, but not to compare rape to a cup of tea with a friend or to attack a person as attention seeking and multiple other things. I respect the respectful comments of people with genuine thoughts and disagreements, but there are so many horrible, unnecessary things being said - thats all I was refering to

It is the police that used the example of tea, in teaching about consent as far as I understood the post.

AoifeCon1996 · 24-02-2017 1:38pm

seamus wrote: »

Rape is not a soft and fluffy, "however you feel yourself" thing.

It's a legal term. A very specific legal term, with wide-ranging implications.

Penetration which occurs without consent is rape. It's really that straightforward.

Rape cannot be defined as, "If you feel you were raped, then you were raped". If someone is going to lay bare the details of what happened, and call it rape, then in fact the people who read those facts do have the right to decide whether it's rape or not. Because rape is a specific thing, not an emotion or a feeling.

You cannot "decide" that you have been raped. You either were or were not, regardless of how you feel about it.

but she said no multiple times - there was no consent therefor it was rape. You said it yourself. Saying no multiple times means that there was no consent, I really beleive it is that simple.

elefant · 24-02-2017 1:41pm

AoifeCon1996 wrote: »

but she said no multiple times - there was no consent therefor it was rape. You said it yourself. Saying no multiple times means that there was no consent, I really beleive it is that simple.

The issue is whether in some situations, like in this one, whether consent can be inferred. She was kissing the guy and not under any physical duress, but decided to have sex with him because it was easier than having an awkward conversation.

That's a grey area in the minds of a lot of people. Which is why it is being discussed.

AoifeCon1996 · 24-02-2017 1:41pm

muddypaws wrote: »

It is the police that used the example of tea, in teaching about consent as far as I understood the post.

My apologies did I read the comment wrong? To be honest I very well could of, I was on about page 6 when I couldnt read anymore and was so angry when I wrote my first reply so if I read it wrong I apologise- totally my bad! But there was still plenty of other belittling comments made.

mzungu · 24-02-2017 1:42pm

Deleted User wrote: »

She admitted she let him have sex with her... ergo it wasn't.

She said "no" on a few occasions and he continued on regardless. There was no consent there whatsoever, only a string of requests to stop. So, yes, it was rape.

AoifeCon1996 · 24-02-2017 1:44pm

elefant wrote: »

The issue is whether in some situations, like in this one, whether consent can be inferred. She was kissing the guy and not under any physical duress, but decided to have sex with him because it was easier than having an awkward conversation.

That's a grey area in the minds of a lot of people. Which is why it is being discussed.

I respect your point but my reply to this person was that they stated it was as simple as no consent and penetration meaning rape, which is what happened so I couldnt get why they dont agree with her or implied that she "decided" she was raped. Whereas you are concerned about a grey area which is your right so then I get why you dont think its as simple. But the original poster said it was "really that straightforward"

Mountainsandh · 24-02-2017 1:44pm

meeeeh wrote: »

So a woman that went to sleep, didn't invite the person to the bedroom, said no repeatedly should be educated how to communicate properly.
Got it.

Yes she should. Cop on. He didn't creep on her in her bed in the middle of the night.

He followed her to the bedroom. They talked, they kissed. It went further.
The "no" wasn't convincing enough.
Big freaking deal.

Then rephrase, repeat, use body language, withdraw yourself from the situation. Don't just keep kissing and letting it all happen.

By your reasoning, my husband would be a rapist for heaven's sake.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 24-02-2017 1:44pm

AoifeCon1996 wrote: »

I'm sorry to hear that, I really am.
The thing is, she didn't shout rape. I'm almost sure that she is in her 30's (?), this happened almost 9 years ago and even after being a journalist for how many years, a blogger for almost 2 (?) and having endless conversations about rape with multiple people on public platforms, she never shouted rape. I always thought that she was just someone who felt strongly about it, never a victim of it. I do honestly think that as she said, she was inspired by someone else's post to share her own story, after multiple opportunities to. I think that that was the inspiration here. I think that she did it in order to help her readers who have also gone through it and it was her own attempt to tackle the stigma surrounding rape. As a victim of rape, I totally respect your opinion to publicly talk about it or to not discuss it, but Rosemary had her own experience and she choose to discuss it publicly as it was her story to tell - nobody elses. I dont see why this is such an issue?

And yes she is a journalist and yes she put this blog post out and i totally get that there are people who will disagree and say horrible stuff but my point is why isn't any of this being moderated (the particularity bad comments not just everything) when the mention of a bloggers name was under such moderation?

She's publically outed someone as being a rapist, on the internet, taking away his right of clearing his name or proving he didn't rape her. That's a dispicable thing to do.

Rape is not a feeling. You can feel lied to, taken advantage of, feel like you were blind, feel regret, you can have so many feelings after sex but those feelings don't mean you've been raped.
I'm personally taken aback with the sentence "I let it because it was easier than having an awkward conversation". What?

She's completely trivialising the act of rape. She admitted she consented, though she wasn't into it. To come out 9 years later and post that about someone all over the Internet without giving him a fair trial is vicious and dangerous.

People from that time in her life will know well who she's talking about, names will travel and mud sticks.

The Backwards Man · 24-02-2017 1:44pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I was binge watching a box set with a mate recently. We got to the last episode and he said he was too tired to go on.

"Please," I said "we got this far, do not flake on me now".

He said he had an early start in the morning and wanted to call it a night.

"Go on," I said "They are only 20 minutes long each, we can do this"

After a few more protests I added "Do not leave me doing this on my own, we came this far together, the finish line is so close".

Then as a ploy I started the episode running and the opening credits and music and the like.

In the end he said ok and flopped back down in the couch and we watched the Season Finale and he went home to bed.

If it is established that what is described in the OP is "rape" then please let me know, so I can turn myself in for kidnapping.

That's back to the whole culture of not taking no for an answer again, sometimes it just makes you a lousy mate, sometimes it makes you something a lot worse.

nacho libre · 24-02-2017 1:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I was binge watching a box set with a mate recently. We got to the last episode and he said he was too tired to go on.

"Please," I said "we got this far, do not flake on me now".

He said he had an early start in the morning and wanted to call it a night.

"Go on," I said "They are only 20 minutes long each, we can do this"

After a few more protests I added "Do not leave me doing this on my own, we came this far together, the finish line is so close".

Then as a ploy I started the episode running and the opening credits and music and the like.

In the end he said ok and flopped back down in the couch and we watched the Season Finale and he went home to bed.

If it is established that what is described in the OP is "rape" then please let me know, so I can turn myself in for kidnapping.

so it's her fault for not being direct enough with him. Perhaps you are right, she should not have just relented and let him get on with it, but i would still lay most of the blame on him. It seems his penis was determined to be in the magic circle and he was not going to deprive it, so he just ignored her saying no.
Perhaps quite a few here have had sex with the other person reluctant to do so - their no, really meant yes. To me once you hear no, that's it, no matter how hard your cock is, it's a selfish violation of another person to continue on.

Omackeral · 24-02-2017 1:46pm

AoifeCon1996 wrote: »

This thread is literally ripping this woman apart

AoifeCon1996 wrote: »

and proving that rape culture is still very much a thing.

Both of those things are untrue, especially the first one as it's all online and not physically possible.

Also, actually laughing here at the notion of you defending her anonymity. She's a social influencer haven't you heard?!

One eyed Jack · 24-02-2017 1:46pm

seamus wrote: »

Rape is not a soft and fluffy, "however you feel yourself" thing.

It's a legal term. A very specific legal term, with wide-ranging implications.

Penetration which occurs without consent is rape. It's really that straightforward.

Rape cannot be defined as, "If you feel you were raped, then you were raped". If someone is going to lay bare the details of what happened, and call it rape, then in fact the people who read those facts do have the right to decide whether it's rape or not. Because rape is a specific thing, not an emotion or a feeling.

You cannot "decide" that you have been raped. You either were or were not, regardless of how you feel about it.

You can of course?

Rape isn't just a legal term either. The charge of rape has a number of different constituents to the crime, one of the most important of which is to establish whether the alleged victim had capacity to consent. This is why there have been numerous calls for a legal definition of consent to be included in the Sexual Offences Bill.

....... · 24-02-2017 1:48pm

This post has been deleted.

pumpkin4life · 24-02-2017 1:49pm

The irony is that people like Rosemary are adding more to so called rape culture, because by making these kinds of comments, more and more people are wired to say "just another spoofer", which puts people who are victims of sexual abuse far more at risk. Also, in terms of your own biases.

They'll think I'm a spoofer. Maybe it didn't happen. Maybe I was looking for attention and I'm a crappy person like Rosemary. It wasn't abuse. I'm not a fruitcake blue haired fembo. They'll think I'm an attention seeker.

Wibbs · 24-02-2017 1:50pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I was binge watching a box set with a mate recently. We got to the last episode and he said he was too tired to go on.

If it is established that what is described in the OP is "rape" then please let me know, so I can turn myself in for kidnapping.

Depends entirely on the boxset in question.

AoifeCon1996 wrote: »

Where the hell are the moderators on this thread??? If a thread about bloggers goes up and someone even dares to name them, they are there in a flash handing out bans left right and centre. Yet here we have multiple people publicly naming this woman, demeaning everything she has said and making fun of rape yet they are nowhere to be seen??

This thread is literally ripping this woman apart and proving that rape culture is still very much a thing and how ****ing uneducated people are in this country, still. I had to stop reading because it was actually painful to see people make fun of someone who had opened up about their experience of rape. Then they wonder why people don't report it or ever tell people about it? "its not rape if you didnt report it" eh NO, they dont report it because of people like YOU who will come and make fun of what they're saying and call them attention seeking and every name under the sun. They dont report it because you take it upon yourself to say that they are wrong when you've absolutely NO RIGHT to. Discusting.

So you think we should all just agree and support any publicly broadcast opinion piece, so long as it agrees with a particular narrative we approve of? That's not how things work, or should work. This goes double in the case of publicly accusing someone of what the vast majority of society(and the law) sees as a heinous crime. So it's OK for someone to accuse someone else of such a crime with no proof but their own testimony? Luckily society and the legal system requires more.

Just to clarify with replies- I totally agree that people are entitled to disagree and discuss it, but not to compare rape to a cup of tea with a friend or to attack a person as attention seeking and multiple other things.

You do realise that the "cup of tea" reference was an illustrative part of a consent discussion? This is often a problem with open debate. More and more people are getting less used to it and can kick off when dissenting voices are raised. The rise of Facebook/Reddit/Whatsapp/Blog echo chambers on all contentious subjects and politics where dissent is down voted(or not invited in the first place) are evidence of that.

I respect the respectful comments of people with genuine thoughts and disagreements, but there are so many horrible, unnecessary things being said - thats all I was refering to

Which TBH - and correct me if I'm wrong - reads to me like "I respect comments that agree with my worldview, but any dissent, even questions beyond that I take issue with".

One eyed Jack wrote:

You can of course?

You can, but as Seamus points out the facts boil down to "You either were or were not, regardless of how you feel about it". If you were then your decision to believe it gels with the fact of it, if not, it doesn't. I could call the Guards now and claim I was burgled, but if I wasn't, well, I wasn't. My claim has no bearing on it.

elefant · 24-02-2017 1:50pm

AoifeCon1996 wrote: »

I respect your point but my reply to this person was that they stated it was as simple as no consent and penetration meaning rape, which is what happened so I couldnt get why they dont agree with her or implied that she "decided" she was raped. Whereas you are concerned about a grey area which is your right so then I get why you dont think its as simple. But the original poster said it was "really that straightforward"

Your initial point was 'they have the right to decide when someone is raped or not'. This is not the case.

This is a tricky scenario, and it isn't straightforward (in a lot of posters' eyes). Yet someone has been publicly outed as a rapist.

AoifeCon1996 · 24-02-2017 1:52pm

Omackeral wrote: »

Both of those things are untrue, especially the first one as it's all online and not physically possible.

Also, actually laughing here at the notion of you defending her anonymity. She's a social influencer haven't you heard?!

I'm not defending her anonymity or if you thought I was , it's not my intention. I get that she is a public blogger and put up a public post - but that doesnt give people the right to say such horrible things. And i'm not that naive that I think that a disagreement is a "horrible thing". People are justified to disagree and voice that but only if it is not just for the point of attacking her as a person or "influencer". I dont agree with people basically bullying another person for the sake of it, but I do agree with disagreements that are voiced in a respecful way

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 24-02-2017 1:53pm

nacho libre wrote: »

so it's her fault for not being direct enough with him. Perhaps you are right, she should have just relented and let him get on with it, but i would still lay most of the blame on him. It seems his penis was determined to be in the magic circle and he was not going to deprive it, so he just ignored her saying no.
Perhaps quite a few here have had sex with the other person reluctant to do so - their no, really meant yes. To me once you hear no, that's it, no matter how hard your cock is, it's a selfish violation of another person to continue on.

In an ideal world a simple "no" would be enough. It's never the victims fault however people do need to take some personal responsibility. If a gentle "no" isn't having the desired effect, (while still kissing him) the reasonable thing to expect would be to cease kissing, a firmer rebuttal and a request for him to leave.

Yes no should mean no, but I've been guilty of not accepting a no as an answer and I've been equally guilty in saying no but acting and demonstrating yes.
As an adult, to protect yourself, to stop yourself being violated and used it's not unreasonable to expect "please stop. Get off me. You're scaring me and I don't want to have sex". Leave absolutely no room for any doubt.

Mountainsandh · 24-02-2017 1:53pm

Neyite wrote: »

I've a son. I want to teach him to be the kind of guy that when noticing that the girl (or guy!) he is kissing is not into it or is reluctant /drunk/falling asleep, or says no that he stops right away. That the correct action to take is to put that person in a taxi home, find their friend, or tuck into bed clothed and unmolested. If it turns out that the person kinda sorta did want sex, then they learn to be clearer the next time about what they want and not bandy the word "no" around in a half hearted and ambiguous way.

It's lovely Neyite and it's great.
However, like you conclude, the other person has to learn communication skills too.

I'm of the opinion that really, both young people in this scenario should have better communication skills, and that in the event your child is not an evil guy and simply got his wires crossed, he should not be accused of rape.
Posts such as the one discussed here are implying that your young fellow, if he misinterpreted the young lady's contradictory body language and verbal language, would be considered a rapist. Would you think your son is a rapist if he found himself in the young man's situation ?

pilly · 24-02-2017 1:54pm

AoifeCon1996 wrote: »

Just to clarify with replies- I totally agree that people are entitled to disagree and discuss it, but not to compare rape to a cup of tea with a friend or to attack a person as attention seeking and multiple other things. I respect the respectful comments of people with genuine thoughts and disagreements, but there are so many horrible, unnecessary things being said - thats all I was refering to

Whilst I agree with some of your points Aoife I can not agree with the point that if someone "feels" they were raped then they were.

This is very unfair to men, if that's the case they could be accused of rape any time they have sex.

And I say this as a woman.

"Why I did not report my rapist"

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