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So... My Landlord has gone into receivership...

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  • 18-03-2014 10:00pm
    #1
    the_barfly1
    Registered Users Posts: 578 ✭✭✭


    As per title. Had a search around here and there doesn't seem to be any concrete information on the rights of tenants in this situation. I've been in the house for the past 18 months and don't have a written lease agreement, but have been paying the rent by bank transfer.
    The agent for the receiver called to the house this evening shortly after I got home (about 8pm) and said he'd need to organise to have somebody around to value the house and that I'd be supplied with bank a/c details to pay the rent to them in the meantime.
    Has anybody been through this process?


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    #2
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    there are quite a few threads re receiver property's and rents from memory.

    If a rent receiver has been appointed by the courts you must comply with their requests and pay all rent to them.

    Did you have any initial lease or contract? Is the property PRTB registered?

    If they are getting a valuation it could be they are looking for a sale but could also just be standard procedure. Talk to them re you staying there.

    If you have no contract and your landlady never declared the property or agreed with the lender that it could be rented you could be hoofed out at virtually no notice. The fact they have not done this and are providing ac details would seem to give some assurances. Check with the receiver.

    The worst part is that your deposit is (was) with your original landlord. You will probably not get this back but you may be able to come to some sort of agreement with your rent receiver unless your landlord was nothing short of honest and allocated this money somewhere safe.


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    #3
    the_barfly1
    Registered Users Posts: 578 ✭✭✭the_barfly1


    thanks for the reply. a bit shellshocked after the visit earlier. dont have a written contract of lease but can prove rent payments via bank statements. does say on documents i was given that the receiver wants to "dispose" of the property, so i'm guessing that means that they wish to sell the house?


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    #4
    Thoie
    Registered Users Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    I'm overly paranoid, but have you seen anything official in writing - name and address of the receiver, details of the file number registered with the courts, something from the bank appointing the receiver, and from the receiver, appointing the agent, anything like that? I'm sure it's legit, but I wouldn't start changing my payments or letting someone into the house until I was positive it was all above board.


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    #5
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,393 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    they should be able to provide you with a copy of the legal document of receivership, this is what I was given. Now NAMA is my landlord but once I established that it was all above board, I just paid my rent to them. On part 4 lease and they confirmed this


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    #6
    the_barfly1
    Registered Users Posts: 578 ✭✭✭the_barfly1


    Update: I've just been served with a notice to vacate on instruction of the receiver. To say i'm pissed off would be an understatement.

    To anybody in the know, what documents should I have been furnished with in regards to all of this? The letter today is from from the estate agent themselves with no backup documentation of any kind.

    Thanks.


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    #7
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    the_barfly1 wrote: »
    Update: I've just been served with a notice to vacate on instruction of the receiver. To say i'm pissed off would be an understatement.

    To anybody in the know, what documents should I have been furnished with in regards to all of this? The letter today is from from the estate agent themselves with no backup documentation of any kind.

    Thanks.

    I don't think they have to issue anything other than the notice to vacate.

    There was a piece about this on the last word with Matt Cooper recently talking about the lack of rights tenants have in this situation

    http://www.mortgagebrokers.ie/uncategorized/today-fm-the-last-word-with-matt-cooper-on-rent-receivers/

    http://www.mortgagebrokers.ie/blog/bank-of-ireland/the-2000-irish-evictions-you-dont-hear-about/

    It also doesn't appear to be covered under the Tenancy Act 2004 or by the PRTB as per the article above


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    #8
    the_barfly1
    Registered Users Posts: 578 ✭✭✭the_barfly1


    Thanks for the reply. I think I'm going to get onto a local TD and ask if there's anything that can be done here. I've furnished this place myself and looked after all the maintenance and everything else since I moved in. Ridiculous. Fuming.


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    #9
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    the_barfly1 wrote: »
    Thanks for the reply. I think I'm going to get onto a local TD and ask if there's anything that can be done here. I've furnished this place myself and looked after all the maintenance and everything else since I moved in. Ridiculous. Fuming.

    What do you think that will achieve? More than likely the receiver has decided to sell the property and can't do that with a tenant in situ.


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    #10
    the_barfly1
    Registered Users Posts: 578 ✭✭✭the_barfly1


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    What do you think that will achieve?.

    It'll make me feel better to have a whine and a moan about to somebody who'll pretend to care because they want my vote.


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    #11
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    the_barfly1 wrote: »
    It'll make me feel better to have a whine and a moan about to somebody who'll pretend to care because they want my vote.

    Your energy would better placed finding somewhere new to live.


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    #12
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    Your energy would better placed finding somewhere new to live.

    Surprised at this attitude from you.
    Unless folk get onto authorities with the power to change the law, tenants will continue to fall between cracks in the law.


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    #13
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    gaius c wrote: »
    Surprised at this attitude from you.
    Unless folk get onto authorities with the power to change the law, tenants will continue to fall between cracks in the law.

    This isn't a tenancy law issue though, receivers are appointed because of bad debt. Would you like tenants to get rights to stop the banks appointing receivers?


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    #14
    the_barfly1
    Registered Users Posts: 578 ✭✭✭the_barfly1


    plenty of people with money out there that would be happy to buy a property with a reliable tenant in-situ. its a bit heavy handed by the banks to turf out tenants that have done nothing wrong and kept a property in good nick.


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    #15
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    the_barfly1 wrote: »
    plenty of people with money out there that would be happy to buy a property with a reliable tenant in-situ. its a bit heavy handed by the banks to turf out tenants that have done nothing wrong and kept a property in good nick.

    The banks have no relationship with a tenant though and therefore no obligations or quite frankly any desire to deal with them.
    They want their debt repaid I don't understand why that is heavy handed, it's business and your landlord is to blame, not the bank.


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    #16
    Kristopherus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,907 ✭✭✭✭Kristopherus


    the_barfly1 wrote: »
    plenty of people with money out there that would be happy to buy a property with a reliable tenant in-situ. its a bit heavy handed by the banks to turf out tenants that have done nothing wrong and kept a property in good nick.

    If you have repaired & maintained the property in good nick at your own expense, then you have a good case to charge for it.


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    #17
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,085 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Kristopherus wrote: »
    If you have repaired & maintained the property in good nick at your own expense, then you have a good case to charge for it.

    Charge who, the bankrupt or broke landlord ?

    A tenant shouldn't do this unless they have already agreed and expensed the landlord.
    Otherwise they could end up out of pocket as in this case.

    If the OP has replaced anything in their maintenance and repairs, and have not been expensed by the landlord then they will probably get nothing.

    Also there is going to be another issue with getting any deposit back.
    The landlord will cry poverty, bankruptcy, etc and the bank will not be interested since they never got it.

    The more you look at Irish tenancy laws and regs the more one sees the holes.
    There has been an long term need for deposits to be held in escrow by some third party and this just reiterates it.

    BTW the holes in the laws and regs affect both tenants and landlords.


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    #18
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,355 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    WOW!
    I just can't get over the attitude. The property is up for sale the law is perfectly clear that is a reason enough to remove a tenant. The tenant is given notice.

    If you want the law changed moaning to a TD will do nothing. If they do change the law then they should be putting in enforcement on failure to pay rent and breaking of leases.

    Anybody putting money into a rented property should be fully aware you do so at your own risk. You better make sure you have got permission too as I have had "improvements" put in by tenants that cost money to fix.

    If you want the property market to become stable anything preventing foreclosures and possession of property is a terrible idea.


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    #19
    toughapple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭toughapple


    the_barfly1 wrote: »
    Update: I've just been served with a notice to vacate on instruction of the receiver. To say i'm pissed off would be an understatement.

    To anybody in the know, what documents should I have been furnished with in regards to all of this? The letter today is from from the estate agent themselves with no backup documentation of any kind.

    Thanks.

    You can appeal the notice of termination to the PRTB. It will take some time to be heard. Meanwhile you can consider some legal action.


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    #20
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    toughapple wrote: »
    You can appeal the notice of termination to the PRTB. It will take some time to be heard. Meanwhile you can consider some legal action.

    Why would you appeal? It wont delay anything and the PRTB cant do anything. No illegal action has taken place. Staying on, however, would be an illegal action.

    Op, you need to get looking for a new place.


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    #21
    toughapple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭toughapple


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Why would you appeal? It wont delay anything and the PRTB cant do anything. No illegal action has taken place. Staying on, however, would be an illegal action.

    Op, you need to get looking for a new place.

    The tenancy continues while the appeal is being dealt with.


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    #22
    the_barfly1
    Registered Users Posts: 578 ✭✭✭the_barfly1


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Why would you appeal? It wont delay anything and the PRTB cant do anything. No illegal action has taken place. Staying on, however, would be an illegal action.

    Op, you need to get looking for a new place.

    Yeah, I get that. I was, to be honest, in a very foul humour yesterday evening after being given the notice. What has pissed me off more than anything else was that I was assured by the agent just a few weeks ago that I had nothing to worry about and that I would just have to carry on as normal paying rent to the receiver. I was told that a new tenancy agreement would be drawn up and forwarded to me, which is what I assumed I was being given yesterday evening when I got the knock on the door. I find this incredibly disingenuous. Looks like the only reason the guy called in at all was to put a price on the place and the welfare of myself and the other tenants here was never a priority or concern.

    I am sure many on this forum who are tenants themselves will appreciate how difficult it is to find a property that they are happy in, and happy to stay in long term. I needed this like a hole in the head as I started back in education last September, so I'm not exactly in the greatest financial situation. I now have this whole kerfuffle hanging over me with exams looming, which is hassle I really don't need and didn't anticipate, so excuse me for letting frustration and anger rule me.

    The most logical step forward for me now is to up sticks from my lovely house an hour from Dublin and move to the city, to pay more on rent for a shoebox apartment than the combined cost for rent and commuting that I have been paying here.

    I bloody hate moving house. On the upside for all of the landlords on here, I'm going to have to sell off most of my furniture over the next few weeks, so you might get a bargain over on adverts.


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    #23
    toughapple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭toughapple


    the_barfly1 wrote: »
    Yeah, I get that. I was, to be honest, in a very foul humour yesterday evening after being given the notice. What has pissed me off more than anything else was that I was assured by the agent just a few weeks ago that I had nothing to worry about and that I would just have to carry on as normal paying rent to the receiver. I was told that a new tenancy agreement would be drawn up and forwarded to me, which is what I assumed I was being given yesterday evening when I got the knock on the door. I find this incredibly disingenuous. Looks like the only reason the guy called in at all was to put a price on the place and the welfare of myself and the other tenants here was never a priority or concern.

    I am sure many on this forum who are tenants themselves will appreciate how difficult it is to find a property that they are happy in, and happy to stay in long term. I needed this like a hole in the head as I started back in education last September, so I'm not exactly in the greatest financial situation. I now have this whole kerfuffle hanging over me with exams looming, which is hassle I really don't need and didn't anticipate, so excuse me for letting frustration and anger rule me.

    The most logical step forward for me now is to up sticks from my lovely house an hour from Dublin and move to the city, to pay more on rent for a shoebox apartment than the combined cost for rent and commuting that I have been paying here.

    I bloody hate moving house. On the upside for all of the landlords on here, I'm going to have to sell off most of my furniture over the next few weeks, so you might get a bargain over on adverts.
    I would appeal and keep it going.


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    #24
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    the_barfly1 wrote: »
    Yeah, I get that. I was, to be honest, in a very foul humour yesterday evening after being given the notice. What has pissed me off more than anything else was that I was assured by the agent just a few weeks ago that I had nothing to worry about and that I would just have to carry on as normal paying rent to the receiver. I was told that a new tenancy agreement would be drawn up and forwarded to me, which is what I assumed I was being given yesterday evening when I got the knock on the door. I find this incredibly disingenuous. Looks like the only reason the guy called in at all was to put a price on the place and the welfare of myself and the other tenants here was never a priority or concern.

    I am sure many on this forum who are tenants themselves will appreciate how difficult it is to find a property that they are happy in, and happy to stay in long term. I needed this like a hole in the head as I started back in education last September, so I'm not exactly in the greatest financial situation. I now have this whole kerfuffle hanging over me with exams looming, which is hassle I really don't need and didn't anticipate, so excuse me for letting frustration and anger rule me.

    The most logical step forward for me now is to up sticks from my lovely house an hour from Dublin and move to the city, to pay more on rent for a shoebox apartment than the combined cost for rent and commuting that I have been paying here.

    I bloody hate moving house. On the upside for all of the landlords on here, I'm going to have to sell off most of my furniture over the next few weeks, so you might get a bargain over on adverts.

    It does suck but there's nothing that you can really do except get a new place sorted asap. No point dwelling on it.

    toughapple wrote: »
    The tenancy continues while the appeal is being dealt with.

    The notice to terminate is valid, the appeal will be dismissed pretty much instantly. Trying to drag out the process is pointless and not a good use of the ops time or the boards time.


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    #25
    toughapple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭toughapple


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    It does suck but there's nothing that you can really do except get a new place sorted asap. No point dwelling on it.




    The notice to terminate is valid, the appeal will be dismissed pretty much instantly. Trying to drag out the process is pointless and not a good use of the ops time or the boards time.

    You haven't seen the notice to terminate. There may well be a technical problem with it. The PRTB is very slow and wont deal with the appeal for months. A friend of mine kept her house for a year afetr a notice to terminate.


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    #26
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    toughapple wrote: »
    You haven't seen the notice to terminate. There may well be a technical problem with it. The PRTB is very slow and wont deal with the appeal for months. A friend of mine kept her house for a year afetr a notice to terminate.

    I have no reason to assume it isn't valid, so i wont assume it is invalid.

    Instead of wasting peoples time and money the tenant would be better suited to getting new accommodation. Honestly, what do you expect to accomplish dragging it out?


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    #27
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,085 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    WOW!
    I just can't get over the attitude. The property is up for sale the law is perfectly clear that is a reason enough to remove a tenant. The tenant is given notice.

    If you want the law changed moaning to a TD will do nothing. If they do change the law then they should be putting in enforcement on failure to pay rent and breaking of leases.

    Agreed.

    But the point I was making was that tenants caught in this situation often have problems getting back deposits.
    The receivor or the bank never had the deposit so the tenant is left chasing the landlord.
    And in these cases they may just be another creditor left up the creek.
    That is why there should be an escrow type system where deposits are held.
    Also it would get rid of the cr** about unvouched expenses being used as excuses why deposits are not returned.
    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    Anybody putting money into a rented property should be fully aware you do so at your own risk. You better make sure you have got permission too as I have had "improvements" put in by tenants that cost money to fix.

    Agreed.
    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    If you want the property market to become stable anything preventing foreclosures and possession of property is a terrible idea.

    Agreed.


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    #28
    Glenbhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,852 ✭✭✭Glenbhoy


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    What do you think that will achieve? More than likely the receiver has decided to sell the property and can't do that with a tenant in situ.

    An hour from Dublin - good luck with that!! It'd probably make more sense to leave the tenant in-situ whilst they try and sell.

    If I was the OP I would have a talk with the receiver about when they would exit the property, by the sounds of it, if OP is doing exams it might suit to wait another few months - both parties should be cognisant of their rights here and I'm sure the receiver knows that the tenant can put many obstacles in the way between now and exiting the property. Negotiation normally makes sense.


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    #29
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Glenbhoy wrote: »
    An hour from Dublin - good luck with that!! It'd probably make more sense to leave the tenant in-situ whilst they try and sell.

    If I was the OP I would have a talk with the receiver about when they would exit the property, by the sounds of it, if OP is doing exams it might suit to wait another few months - both parties should be cognisant of their rights here and I'm sure the receiver knows that the tenant can put many obstacles in the way between now and exiting the property. Negotiation normally makes sense.

    Maybe so, but if the OP approaches the receiver in the same mindframe as some of their posts a quick trip to the courts would follow.
    The receiver can go straight to the courts for an eviction order, they don't have to go through the PRTB.


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    #30
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,355 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    jmayo wrote: »

    But the point I was making was that tenants caught in this situation often have problems getting back deposits.
    The receivor or the bank never had the deposit so the tenant is left chasing the landlord.
    And in these cases they may just be another creditor left up the creek.
    That is why there should be an escrow type system where deposits are held.
    Also it would get rid of the cr** about unvouched expenses being used as excuses why deposits are not returned.

    There is no may about it they are. The bank or receiver has no connection to the deposit.
    An escrow system won't work for the simple reason for any complaint about damage somebody will have to mediate. Who is going to pay for that? Who is going to administrate the system and again who pays.

    If you think it is that vital there is nothing stopping you setting up a company and doing it. Maybe charge 10% of the deposit. The problem is you could be holding money for years.


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    #31
    Webster29
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Webster29


    A receiver is appointed as agent of the landlord to manage and sell the asset. This includes collecting rents and paying outgoings - all mortgages include both powers. Expenses the receivers incur are deducted from the sale proceeds and/or added to the obligations secured. So why is a deposit treated differently if the receiver treats it as an outgoing which the principal is obliged to refund, pays it and deducts it from the sale proceeds or charges it as an expenses?

    Why do we need to treat the deposit like it was handed over in a shoebox full of cash, stored under the original landlord's mattress and now we need to go find that exact pile of cash?


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