Still Waters No Longer Running, Derp.

magicbastarder · 02-05-2020 11:19pm

FWIW, here is my almost exactly 16 year old memories of the protests in question (of which i would not have been there lest i was buying a lens off a friend; but my otherwise not being there is not a comment on what i thought of their aims); the protestors were overwhelmingly a well intentioned, pleasant bunch of people who had concerns about the excesses of capitalism, with obvious shades of differences of opinion within that stance, as you would expect at any protest. they started out in fitzwilliam square; i vaguely remember some comment about them having needed special permission to start there, but having been given it, to the surprise of many of the people present.
there were a few people hanging around the fringes, and as i mentioned, and despite me generally not being happy in indulging in stereotypes, they were very easily distinguished from what i'd happily call the genuine protestors, and did not seem at all versed with what the point of the march was. to get explicit about the stereotypes, it was celtic jerseys and cans of carling territory.
the march set off, and there was a general amount of noise and hubbub you'd expect from a protest, and it headed down past merrion square, till about halfway along the side of merrion square east, and - this is my most vivid memory of the day - absolute silence was called by the organisers, so we filed past holles street hospital in complete silence until we reached grand canal street and the noise kicked off again.
to be honest, i can't remember exactly where it crossed the liffey, but the next significant stop i recall was a protest outside a filling station on amiens street (at which point i headed off) as one of the main aims of the protest was to protest the excessively long leash being granted to big oil companies by the EU. at no point do i remember thinking that their aims sounded ludicrous or unreasonable, but as mentioned, this happened 16 years ago tomorrow.
as mentioned, i saw the footage of the protests on the news later that day and several of the 'non-protestors' were clearly visible in the footage. some of the genuine protestors too, but things were clearly aggressive, as one of the defendants subsequently was "on bail in relation to the charge of stealing a garda cap"

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/high-court-frees-protestors-refused-bail-by-district-judge-25913201.html

magicbastarder · 02-05-2020 11:26pm

oh and i'd just like to say - if one expects people who are protesting a clear wrong to have a coherent, nuanced exit strategy, with fully balanced and costed alternative already prepared for anyone who questions their aims (the lack of which would clearly negate any criticism they have); i'm sure YFG have a slot for such a person to boost their ranks of apologists for sitting on our collective hands and doing nothing.

Bannasidhe · 03-05-2020 11:50am

magicbastarder wrote: »

oh and i'd just like to say - if one expects people who are protesting a clear wrong to have a coherent, nuanced exit strategy, with fully balanced and costed alternative already prepared for anyone who questions their aims (the lack of which would clearly negate any criticism they have); i'm sure YFG have a slot for such a person to boost their ranks of apologists for sitting on our collective hands and doing nothing.

Ah yes - the old those who protest can only do so when they can also provide the solution. Such rubbish. It is particularly ironic when those making such claims are doing so as a defence of the f-ups made by whomever is in charge.

Well you do better they howl - while screaming that alternative plans are disasters waiting to happen even as we are in the midst of a disaster already happening. We must continue on our current disastrous trajectory they cry lest a different kind of disaster possibly happen because reasons.

Protests are a means of telling those we elect to run the country that people (rightly or wrongly) believe they are not doing so the way parts of the electorate wish them to do. It is really the only recourse people have between election cycles.
It is then up to those elected - and their cheerleaders- to justify why they are doing what they are doing - not sneering dismiss and demand solutions.

For example - govts continually failed to act on the results of the X Ref - until protests forced them.
Women got the vote because....
Workers got rights because....

robindch · 04-05-2020 11:12am

Odhinn wrote: »

Can we agree that the problem is with unbridled capitalism?

Problem is with unregulated capitalism which is synonymous with gangster capitalism, or simply, a gangster state.

In an ideal democracy, the electorate elects politicians, the representatives act in the interests of their electorate, they enact legislation which is enforced by police and interpreted by the judiciary - each arm acting transparently and independently of other arms according to publicly available laws and rules. Doesn't always work out like that in practice of course for a variety of reasons, but in gangster capitalism, like in Russia, the arms might be nominally independent, but practically subservient to, or serving the interests of, other people or other organizations. Enacting all the good laws in the world doesn't matter if the police won't enforce them or the judiciary won't interpret them.

Peregrinus · 05-05-2020 3:34am

robindch wrote: »

Problem is with unregulated capitalism which is synonymous with gangster capitalism, or simply, a gangster state.

In an ideal democracy, the electorate elects politicians, the representatives act in the interests of their electorate, they enact legislation which is enforced by police and interpreted by the judiciary - each arm acting transparently and independently of other arms according to publicly available laws and rules. Doesn't always work out like that in practice of course for a variety of reasons, but in gangster capitalism, like in Russia, the arms might be nominally independent, but practically subservient to, or serving the interests of, other people or other organizations. Enacting all the good laws in the world doesn't matter if the police won't enforce them or the judiciary won't interpret them.

I wouldn't say that Russia is the only example of where this model breaks down. In the US (and many other western democracies) it breaks down at the point where the elected legislators are supposed to act in the interests of the electorate; they act instead in the interests of sectional groups, most notably those with money; those who control the media; and those who are within the social/political establishment and have the power to reward or punish the behaviour of legislators. And they also tend to act in particular disregard of elements of the community who are marginalised by or alienated from the mainstream.

robindch · 05-05-2020 12:09pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

I wouldn't say that Russia is the only example of where this model breaks down.

Indeed - and the question is not one of whether problems exist or not in all polities, as they certainly do, but in the extent and consequences of these problems. Russia's just the closest country with enormous problems in each element of the country's legal construction - a notoriously corrupt police, a judiciary which does what it's told by the state, the highest bidder or the local power brokers, a rubber-stamp legislature, and a crazy executive.

There are other non-constitutional entities with important roles - trade unions to represent workers, media outlets to inform the public, militaries and so on.

Peregrinus wrote: »

[...] they act instead in the interests of sectional groups, most notably those with money; those who control the media;

Absolutely - especially in the US where the right-wing media is little more than closed-loop propaganda feeding straight into another crazy executive. The same thing, to a lesser degree, is happening in the UK.

I suppose we should thank our lucky stars that Ireland has, to a large extent anyway, remained free of these problems over the last few years.

robindch · 05-05-2020 12:36pm

The transcript for Mr Waters and Ms O'Doherty's outing to the High Court last week. It's carcrash stuff:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1h_ZZbyMdWiO4kNkZtT3FZC9BqnrKNtjo/view

ohnonotgmail · 05-05-2020 12:55pm

robindch wrote: »

The transcript for Mr Waters and Ms O'Doherty's outing to the High Court last week. It's carcrash stuff:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1h_ZZbyMdWiO4kNkZtT3FZC9BqnrKNtjo/view

JUDGE: You're making a speech again, Ms O'Doherty.
MS O'DOHERTY: -- their right to assembly, I'm sorry, I -- you know, this is the
way I speak, Judge.
JUDGE: Indeed.

i love the dry sarcasm.

robindch · 05-05-2020 1:24pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i love the dry sarcasm.

Aye, the word "Indeed" is certainly doing a lot of work there.

Odhinn · 13-05-2020 3:38pm

The High Court has dismissed John Waters' and Gemma O'Doherty's legal challenge against laws introduced by the State due to the Covid-19 pandemic.

He said Mr Waters and Ms O'Doherty, who had no medical or scientific qualifications, maintained the numbers were overstated and the Minister for Health was following fraudulent science.
There was no factual basis or any supporting expert opinion put forward to support this.
The judge said the applicants gave unsubstantiated options, speeches, engaged in empty rhetoric and sought to draw an "absurd and Offensive" historical parallel with Nazi Germany.
Unsubstantiated opinions, speeches, rhetoric and bogus historical parallel were not substitutes for facts.

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2020/0513/1138081-gemma-odoherty-john-waters-covid19-coronavirus/

Fairly damning stuff, which will bounce off that pair like water off of a ducks arse.

smacl · 13-05-2020 3:47pm

Odhinn wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2020/0513/1138081-gemma-odoherty-john-waters-covid19-coronavirus/

Fairly damning stuff, which will bounce off that pair like water off of a ducks arse.

You'd wonder who is covering the costs for this pantomime?

Odhinn · 13-05-2020 3:51pm

smacl wrote: »

You'd wonder who is covering the costs for this pantomime?

Well Gemma got a few bob from the Indo, and Waters had a few from RTE over Panti etc.

ohnonotgmail · 13-05-2020 4:09pm

smacl wrote: »

You'd wonder who is covering the costs for this pantomime?

what costs? they are respresenting themselves. hence the almighty ballsup they made of things.

Odhinn · 13-05-2020 4:12pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what costs? they are respresenting themselves. hence the almighty ballsup they made of things.

The costs of the state.

The judge invited the parties to make submissions as to the orders that should follow his ruling, in particular the matter of costs.

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2020/0513/1138081-gemma-odoherty-john-waters-covid19-coronavirus/

ohnonotgmail · 13-05-2020 4:13pm

Odhinn wrote: »

The costs of the state.

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2020/0513/1138081-gemma-odoherty-john-waters-covid19-coronavirus/

not a hope of costs being awarded against them.

Odhinn · 13-05-2020 4:15pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

not a hope of costs being awarded against them.

Against Waters/Doherty? How so?

ohnonotgmail · 13-05-2020 4:20pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Against Waters/Doherty? How so?

on the face of it it was in the public interest to test whether the laws passed were done properly. they were passed under rather unsual circumstances. unfortunately the legal incompetence of waters/o'doherty meant that test never actually took place. it would be unusual for the judge to award costs against them if there was a hint of public interest involved.

El_Duderino 09 · 13-05-2020 4:57pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

on the face of it it was in the public interest to test whether the laws passed were done properly. they were passed under rather unsual circumstances. unfortunately the legal incompetence of waters/o'doherty meant that test never actually took place. it would be unusual for the judge to award costs against them if there was a hint of public interest involved.

Yeah and as much of a waste of time as this was, I'm glad Ireland is a country where people can challenge this kind of thing. Waters is a nob, but in principle I'm happy that they're not being charged for the cost. It's a cost of living in the kind of country where a citizen can challenge the state. And the laws are pretty extraordinary so it's good that they can be challenged and judged fairly.

Of course that means some nob-head can use the system as a temporary reprieve from irrelevance. But, what can you do?

Skrynesaver · 13-05-2020 4:59pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

on the face of it it was in the public interest to test whether the laws passed were done properly. they were passed under rather unsual circumstances. unfortunately the legal incompetence of waters/o'doherty meant that test never actually took place. it would be unusual for the judge to award costs against them if there was a hint of public interest involved.

Would have thought this was a clear case of a vexatious case.

magicbastarder · 13-05-2020 4:59pm

one might wonder if the judge will consider their case to have been vexatious or flippant. i.e. a deterrent to anyone who wants to challenge the law but doesn't take it seriously enough - given the quality of their case, you could potentially argue they've wasted the court's time.

Odhinn · 13-05-2020 5:30pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

on the face of it it was in the public interest to test whether the laws passed were done properly. they were passed under rather unsual circumstances. unfortunately the legal incompetence of waters/o'doherty meant that test never actually took place. it would be unusual for the judge to award costs against them if there was a hint of public interest involved.

Given the utterly dismissive tone of the judgement I'd be suprised if that was the case. Then again I'm no lawyer - we shall see in time.

Hotblack Desiato · 13-05-2020 7:11pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Waters is a nob, but in principle I'm happy that they're not being charged for the cost.

Can I borrow your crystal ball? Will give it back after the lotto draw. TIA.

ohnonotgmail · 13-05-2020 7:42pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Given the utterly dismissive tone of the judgement I'd be suprised if that was the case. Then again I'm no lawyer - we shall see in time.

I haven't had time to read the judgement, i will do tomorrow, but i would be surprised if the judge commented on merits or otherwise of the substance of the objections that waters/o'doherty have given that the judgement was merely on their right to a JR

Odhinn · 13-05-2020 8:36pm

From the indo an idea of how much they may get hit with

But the duo's case against the Health Minister, Ireland and the Attorney General has fallen at the first hurdle after they were refused leave to bring a judicial review of the legislation.
The decision means they could be landed with a bill for the State’s legal costs in opposing their action, estimated to be around €50,000.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/empty-rhetoric-and-bogus-historical-parallels-why-waters-and-odohertys-challenge-to-covid-19-laws-failed-39203579.html

Odhinn · 13-05-2020 8:38pm

Has anyone a link the full transcript of the judgement?

CramCycle · 13-05-2020 8:44pm

smacl wrote: »

You'd wonder who is covering the costs for this pantomime?

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

not a hope of costs being awarded against them.

RTE journalist said judge asked for the state to calculate costs, and that it was likely to be 50k +another 20k for states barristers (which seems to be about 10k cheaper than non state ones). Recalling this from memory on the way home from work but indication was they may find themselves paying it as the reporter said they would appeal but the cost may put them off.

Odhinn wrote: »

Has anyone a link the full transcript of the judgement?

RTE were reading it off earlier so it's available (on phone)

ohnonotgmail · 13-05-2020 8:44pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Has anyone a link the full transcript of the judgement?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E4PNeU7PvlBb2zdW6abQxWcLHzIdMn5B/view

Odhinn · 13-05-2020 9:01pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E4PNeU7PvlBb2zdW6abQxWcLHzIdMn5B/view

Page 30 - (6) is interesting.

Odhinn · 27-05-2020 3:59pm

Former journalists John Waters and Gemma O’Doherty will appeal the High Court’s refusal to grant permission for them to challenge laws introduced by the State due to Covid-19.
The former journalists are to bring their case to the Court of Appeal. When making submissions on the issues of costs, both parties said they would appeal the court’s refusal to grant them leave to mount a legal challenge to the Court of Appeal.

https://www.nova.ie/waters-odoherty-bring-appeal-after-having-initial-case-rubbished-179092/?fbclid=IwAR0W-EKybKqa_JFP9e6zVkYaQfNoNawON_FdWIFSxfEAdbuVCEF-xzxMHg4

Persistent, if nothing else.

ohnonotgmail · 27-05-2020 4:02pm

Odhinn wrote: »

https://www.nova.ie/waters-odoherty-bring-appeal-after-having-initial-case-rubbished-179092/?fbclid=IwAR0W-EKybKqa_JFP9e6zVkYaQfNoNawON_FdWIFSxfEAdbuVCEF-xzxMHg4

Persistent, if nothing else.

i wouldn't mind but the judge told them exactly how they should have proceeded and they ignored him.

Odhinn · 27-05-2020 4:04pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i wouldn't mind but the judge told them exactly how they should have proceeded and they ignored him.

Sure what would he know - hes not keyed into the truth. 5G is the virus.

Hotblack Desiato · 27-05-2020 7:59pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Persistent, if nothing else.

Like herpes only less fun.

robindch · 28-05-2020 12:36am

A couple of lads dropped by to the Bunreacht on the Beach protest yesterday in Dundalk. With TPM's video of the encounter currently sitting on 570,000 views while Gemma's incoherent ramble has yet to gain her 3,000 views, it would be fair to say that Gemma lost.

https://twitter.com/tpmlaws/status/1265372778632556544

Odhinn · 29-05-2020 2:22pm

As per the thread in current affairs, she (and commentary on her) have been effectively banned from reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/d2bmq8/removal_of_gemma_odoherty_posts/

Hotblack Desiato · 29-05-2020 2:59pm

SILENCED!!!!1!1!!!!1! ZOMG

Edit: just noticed that reddit post is 8 months old!

Odhinn · 29-05-2020 7:55pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

SILENCED!!!!1!1!!!!1! ZOMG

Edit: just noticed that reddit post is 8 months old!

Never copped that.

robindch · 04-06-2020 11:35am

John can finally dip, in good conscience, into his share of the 80 grand which he got from RTE a few years back:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/o-doherty-and-waters-ordered-to-pay-legal-costs-of-case-against-state-over-covid-19-laws-1.4270600
https://www.thejournal.ie/gemma-odoherty-john-waters-costs-5114639-Jun2020/

Odhinn · 04-06-2020 1:33pm

Between 50k -100k according to the RTE radio news there.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-06-2020 1:45pm

robindch wrote: »

John can finally dip, in good conscience, into his share of the 80 grand which he got from RTE a few years back:

I fear he's already blown most of it on his elegant couture and coiffure.

CramCycle · 04-06-2020 3:34pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I fear he's already blown most of it on his elegant couture and coiffure.

He didn't waste it on parking tickets, thats for sure.

Odhinn · 04-06-2020 3:40pm

It takes a certain sort of person to take to the high court issues concerning the constitution without so much as a whisper of proper legal advice, let alone that of a specialist on such things.

Hotblack Desiato · 13-06-2020 3:19am

Odhinn wrote: »

It takes a certain sort of person to take to the high court issues concerning the constitution without so much as a whisper of proper legal advice, let alone that of a specialist on such things.

But when one is convinced of one's "rightness" then one does not need the advice of so-called "experts".

Now, where have I heard that sentiment before... and how well is that working out for them... :rolleyes:

Odhinn · 13-06-2020 12:43pm

For a change, heres a qualified head case

A University College Dublin (UCD) professor, who chairs the Eurosceptic Irish Freedom Party, has been asked to resign from a leading European Union scientific committee over online claims she made about the Covid-19 pandemic.
In an hour-long interview with a popular alt-right activist on May 10th, which has been viewed hundreds of thousands of times, Prof Dolores Cahill promised to “debunk the narrative” of the pandemic.
Lockdown and social distancing is not needed to stop the spread of the virus, she said. People who recover are then “immune for life” after 10 days and deaths and illnesses could have been prevented by extra vitamins, she claimed.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-freedom-party-chair-asked-to-resign-from-eu-committee-over-covid-19-claims-1.4277698

CramCycle · 13-06-2020 1:46pm

Odhinn wrote: »

For a change, heres a qualified head case

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-freedom-party-chair-asked-to-resign-from-eu-committee-over-covid-19-claims-1.4277698

She has been and is being reported to the UCD Ethics committee. For a person whose career relied on the EU and its funding for several key milestones, it is one I struggle to get my head around

5uspect · 13-06-2020 2:02pm

Supposedly her words lead Gemma O’Doherty to point to some of my work to further her agenda in those interviews. Not sure how, I’m not going to subject my ears to them.

Edit: clarification

magicbastarder · 13-06-2020 2:06pm

not in a way you could go after her for copyright violation though?

5uspect · 13-06-2020 2:09pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

not in a way you could go after her for copyright violation though?

It’s been on the news a few times. /shrug

Hotblack Desiato · 13-06-2020 2:46pm

CramCycle wrote: »

She has been and is being reported to the UCD Ethics committee. For a person whose career relied on the EU and its funding for several key milestones, it is one I struggle to get my head around

Lockdown and social distancing is not needed to stop the spread of the virus, she said. People who recover are then “immune for life” after 10 days and deaths and illnesses could have been prevented by extra vitamins, she claimed.

A proper loon.

Odhinn · 13-06-2020 3:51pm

I suppose Gemma and the other tinfoil mechanics will take her in as a martyr to the cause.

Hotblack Desiato · 14-06-2020 3:13am

Problem is that when these eejits are confronted with actual facts

(1) you are wasting your time. They don't care for facts or any of that stuff.

(2) they scream how they are being "oppressed" and "silenced". :rolleyes:

(3) you are now part of the Soros / jews / illuminati / alien lizard people conspiracy!!!!1!

Still Waters No Longer Running, Derp.

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