St. Kilians German school open letter to DoES

VillageIdiot71 · 09-09-2020 11:05am

titan18 wrote: »

It's always been a level playing field with exams though. The corrector has no idea that student a is from a private school and student b is from a public school.

Which doesn't address the point; what are you saying drives the gap in typical grades between schools? The pupils being inherently better, every year?

Because people want that gap restored, as if its a basic foundation of the whole system. So what's the driver? What's the underlying factor that they want reflected? Parental school choice? What are we missing by ignoring past school performance?

ted1 · 09-09-2020 11:05am

tjhook wrote: »

- If a school's previous performance was taken into account it could have disadvantaged higher achievers in poorer schools.

- If a school's previous performance wasn't taken into account, it's more likely to disadvantage higher achievers in schools with better performance (often fee-paying schools).

In this country, it's obvious which one of those options was going to be politically viable.

On the first point. No, there would be high achiever in each year. If there was an exceptional one it could be flagged for special consideration.

ted1 · 09-09-2020 11:07am

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

Which, tbh, probably means its the first time high achievers in poorer schools have faced a level playing field that reduces the environmental constraint they've had to contend with.

Unless you're saying folk in (mostly) fee paying schools are inherently superior, and that explains the historical results in those schools.

Well they have always been blindly corrected. So I guess they are inherently superiority

beazee · 09-09-2020 11:08am

Cloudio9 wrote: »

There’s probably a load of Polish families in schools who feel hard done by but won’t have the Irish times as a platform to air their grievances.

The figures shown on RTE News the other night were quoting ~37% of Polish papers overall were marked at H1.
Not surprising if you look into their Saturday/Sunday Polish Schools network in Ireland (some fee paying, some PL gov financed).

crossman47 · 09-09-2020 11:10am

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

Which doesn't address the point; what are you saying drives the gap in typical grades between schools? The pupils being inherently better, every year?

Because people want that gap restored, as if its a basic foundation of the whole system. So what's the driver? What's the underlying factor that they want reflected? Parental school choice? What are we missing by ignoring past school performance?

In the case of the German school, its clear they specialise in German and so will be an outlier nationally. That should have been the same now. Similarly, Colaiste Muire in Dublin always got high marks in Irish. Have they suffered?
More generally, the beneficiaries this year are those whose teachers were exceptionally generous.

tjhook · 09-09-2020 11:10am

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

Which, tbh, probably means its the first time high achievers in poorer schools have faced a level playing field that reduces the environmental constraint they've had to contend with.

Unless you're saying folk in (mostly) fee paying schools are inherently superior, and that explains the historical results in those schools.

Nope. The level playing field was the exam. The system only cared about what you knew. It didn't take into account who you are, who you know, or how you gained the knowledge. It's a brutal system, but it's blind.

If we want to take into account the advantages students have, we could reduce the marks of students who attend better schools, students who have more educated parents, students who are home-schooled, students who happen to be female. I suppose we could just go all the way and award all students 50% in all subjects.

Unless the problem is less about a level playing field, and more about others having more money and what they choose to do with it?

titan18 · 09-09-2020 11:11am

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

Which doesn't address the point; what are you saying drives the gap in typical grades between schools? The pupils being inherently better, every year?

Because people want that gap restored, as if its a basic foundation of the whole system. So what's the driver? What's the underlying factor that they want reflected? Parental school choice? What are we missing by ignoring past school performance?

Multiple reasons imo. You likely have

Potentially better teachers (might not be the case of course)
Smaller class sizes
Higher peer pressure within the class to be smart
More supportive parents for the student to get a good education

Course won't be the case for every student. I went to a public school myself, and we were streamed, and I'd say the top class I was in was as good as any private school class, but the private schools didn't have as many of the bottom students in the bottom classes of our year.

VillageIdiot71 · 09-09-2020 11:11am

ted1 wrote: »

Well they have always been blindly corrected. So I guess they are inherently superiority

Good luck with expanding on that line.

Oh, and you don't need the "ity" at the end.

09-09-2020 11:12am

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

By the logic of that letter, native speakers of Irish and English should all get high marks.

Don't be daft. No they clearly should not, because the curriculum for say English is obviously very different than the curriculum for German.

DangerScouse · 09-09-2020 11:15am

Get Real wrote: »

Agree. You could have a fella working in Dublin Bus earning 45k a year, smokes 20 a day and goes for 5 pints and a chipper on a Saturday. He's not part of the "elite". Just a respectable, working man.

His colleague could be in the same boat, but doesn't drink or smoke. The 5k saved on not doing that puts the young lad at this school. Or his missus might work weekends in the local corner shop.

Yet, somehow, it's "private school cnts" because the parents chose to send the kid there. While colleague A rants about the millionaires as he lights up a smoke on his way for a pint.

(nothing wrong with that BTW, but there's always a "poor me" attitude when in actual fact, some who complain, if they really wanted to, could have done the same. You can't have it both ways)

I highly doubt there is anyone on 45k sending their kids to private school, in Dublin anyway.

VillageIdiot71 · 09-09-2020 11:18am

crossman47 wrote: »

In the case of the German school, its clear they specialise in German and so will be an outlier nationally. That should have been the same now. Similarly, Colaiste Muire in Dublin always got high marks in Irish. Have they suffered?
More generally, the beneficiaries this year are those whose teachers were exceptionally generous.

If you have a look at the post on AAM, its pretty good at explaining that something is missing from the statement that school issued. If any school cohort had an unusually high performance at Junior Cert, that would have been taken into account for their Leaving results by the model.

Mrsmum · 09-09-2020 11:18am

Of course students who go to fee paying schools are not inherently superior. But they will generally do well because their parents are really serious about education and being upwardly mobile so they will get their children every help they need eg extra grinds to beat the band and so forth as well as the fact they will probably be on their children's backs to do well bigtime. Also the children will be mixing with other children who are from the same backgrounds and have same values and they will feed off each other to succeed at exams and get into good college courses.

tjhook · 09-09-2020 11:19am

DangerScouse wrote: »

I highly doubt there is anyone on 45k sending their kids to private school, in Dublin anyway.

I'd say you're mostly correct. But I think most Protestant schools in this state are fee-paying, and there are supports to enable students to attend if that is their religion.

VillageIdiot71 · 09-09-2020 11:27am

tjhook wrote: »

Nope. The level playing field was the exam. The system only cared about what you knew. It didn't take into account who you are, who you know, or how you gained the knowledge. It's a brutal system, but it's blind.

If you find very significant differences between schools, systematically, then can I suggest it is naive to say it doesn't take your personal circumstances into account.

If folk are paying very large sums for certain schools (pretty much all of which, incudently, are State funded), its for a reason. And the reason is, absolutely, that the system will favour folk who attend, say, a school originally set up by Jesuits over a school originally set up by a VEC.

So the model worked, up to now. Didn't it?

munchkin_utd · 09-09-2020 11:27am

Mack Dirty Butterfly wrote: »

Don't be daft. No they clearly should not, because the curriculum for say English is obviously very different than the curriculum for German.

+1

the german leaving cert exam is an exam to test advanced learners, whereas the standard of english and irish exams are expecting a much higher capability.

My 10 year old (native german speaking child) would likely do pretty well in the junior if not leaving cert german paper if I sat it in front of her, so I'd expect an 18 year old german native speaker to fly it

Actually, looking at a mock leaving cert paper - its not far off what they do as 10 year olds.

and thats what many here are missing, its not that its a "private" school and they have an advantage, its that they already speak German so they just will do better.

RealJohn · 09-09-2020 11:32am

screamer wrote: »

Funny how it’s been fine up to this year for the discrimination to happen when taking the historical performance into account when grading papers.

Where and when has this ever happened? Not a rhetorical question. I'd like to know. Can you give any examples of it?

screamer wrote: »

... you should be graded on your achievement and not on your school name, and that should always be the case.

Agreed, and it has been, until this year. This year, the students haven't been graded on their school name (in a way that's very obviously incorrect, in some cases), but they haven't been graded on their actual achievement. It's the worst of both worlds.

screamer wrote: »

Applying bell curves also affects the grades and that should be done away with also.

This just illustrates to me that you don't know why the bell curve is applied. I'll explain.
Obviously, you can't just give the same exam every year, because there would be areas of the course that never get examined (unless the exam was going to be extremely long) and people would eventually learn exactly what's coming up, so they'd just memorise it, and the leaving cert would actually become a memory test, like it's often (incorrectly) criticised for being. Therefore, the exams must change every year.

However, you want the students to be treated equally every year, so we make the assumption that the standard of intelligence and education of the students doesn't vary from year to year, and that 2020's students will achieve more or less the same grades as 2019's students did. Therefore, we assume the same proportion will get H1s, H2s, etc.

Do you think they should do away with the curve, and then, if an exam in a given subject is easier one year than it was the previous, that the students of that year should benefit, purely based on the year they happen to do the leaving cert? That wouldn't seem very fair to me.

VillageIdiot71 · 09-09-2020 11:33am

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Mrsmum wrote: »

Of course students who go to fee paying schools are not inherently superior. But they will generally do well because their parents are really serious about education and being upwardly mobile so they will get their children every help they need eg extra grinds to beat the band and so forth as well as the fact they will probably be on their children's backs to do well bigtime. Also the children will be mixing with other children who are from the same backgrounds and have same values and they will feed off each other to succeed at exams and get into good college courses.

So only parents who send their children to fee paying schools really care about their children's future?

Maybe. So, I suppose, this time the advantage will favour diligent students who don't have ambitious parents or peers.

Which I suppose means they are getting a well deserved levelling of the playing field.

RealJohn · 09-09-2020 11:34am

Mrsmum wrote: »

Was fairness an impossibility so ?

Yes, but something fairer than what we've got wasn't.

Mrsmum wrote: »

Also this bell curve system, is that also unfair ?

No.

tjhook · 09-09-2020 11:39am

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

the system will favour folk who attend, say, a school originally set up by Jesuits over a school originally set up by a VEC.

No, the system doesn't care whether you attend a Catholic, Protestant, public, fee-paying school, or if you're home schooled. The system cares about what knowledge you end up with. That's what it tests.

You mention schools set up by Jesuits. They're not all fee-paying. Is having a religions ethos an unfair advantage for a school and its students? Because if so, maybe we should be pushing all schools to have a religious ethos. Rather than pulling everybody down to the lowest common level.

ted1 · 09-09-2020 11:39am

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

Good luck with expanding on that line.

Oh, and you don't need the "ity" at the end.

What’s to expand. It’s your words.

The exams are marked by a person who only has a number in front of him. He doesn’t see the school or peoples socioeconomic background

crossman47 · 09-09-2020 11:39am

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

If you find very significant differences between schools, systematically, then can I suggest it is naive to say it doesn't take your personal circumstances into account.

If folk are paying very large sums for certain schools (pretty much all of which, incudently, are State funded), its for a reason. And the reason is, absolutely, that the system will favour folk who attend, say, a school originally set up by Jesuits over a school originally set up by a VEC.

So the model worked, up to now. Didn't it?

If by the system, you mean the exam, then you are wrong. The marking of the exam is blind to the school involved. But private schools do have other advantages like smaller classes, etc.

vintagecosmos · 09-09-2020 11:42am

DangerScouse wrote: »

I highly doubt there is anyone on 45k sending their kids to private school, in Dublin anyway.

Although not widespread I am sure, I know of at least half a dozen working class / single mother / one parent income families who absolutely broke their bollox to send their children to a private school. And some who had to do it all again at third level to send kids to a private college as they missed out on their course by a few points.

Some got grants from the schools and reductions in fees. Also at third level they applied for the access programme. One was on about 46k income in the household and ended up been too rich for the access programme by a few hundred quid so didnt get in. There is the HEAR scheme too for college which can give great opportunities.

But no doubt, the people I refer to above are outliers.

VillageIdiot71 · 09-09-2020 11:45am

tjhook wrote: »

No, the system doesn't care whether you attend a Catholic, Protestant, public, fee-paying school, or if you're home schooled. The system cares about what knowledge you end up with. That's what it tests.

Then you'd expect uniform results across all schools, following the same curriculum. Unless certain folk are inherently superior?

If the difference between schools is so great that it actually matters, why are people only bothered about it now?

RealJohn · 09-09-2020 11:47am

It's all well and good to say that students in fee paying schools are at an advantage (and they are, in general), but that doesn't mean that the playing field needs to be leveled to cancel out those advantages. The only fair system is one that bases reward on actual knowledge, skills, and achievement. It would be great if everyone was in the same boat, but they're not. That's something for the government to fix at a grassroots level.

It is not something for the government (or the SEC) to "fix" by penalising people who know more and do better due to having advantages that people who know less and do worse don't have, nor is it any more acceptable to reward those who haven't achieved as much as others but were disadvantaged, so they have a legitimate excuse. If you want to give extra college places to students from disadvantaged areas, that's different, but this year, the playing field is not level for people who were otherwise on a level playing field. This year, students with the same advantages or disadvantages, and the same level of ability, could be getting vastly different results, based on the ability of their teachers to assess them accurately (which most cannot do), honestly (which many have not done), and because some deeply flawed algorithm moved some of them down or up just to fit the numbers, based on only the most tenuous link to their actual ability.

I don't teach in a fee paying school, I didn't attend one, and I don't have kids attending one. I teach in a disadvantaged area. My students have benefitted this year and I'm delighted for them. I'm still not blind to the fact that this was completely unfair that many of those who should have done better than my students didn't (and it's also unfair to most of my students who didn't get H1s or O1s because I did my best to mark them honestly, whereas other teachers did not - my students might have got the grades they deserved but they're competing against students who got better grades than they deserved).

VillageIdiot71 · 09-09-2020 11:47am

ted1 wrote: »

What’s to expand. It’s your words.

And rote learning will serve you well under our system.

RealJohn · 09-09-2020 11:52am

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

Then you'd expect uniform results across all schools, following the same curriculum. Unless certain folk are inherently superior?

No, you wouldn't. You'd expect better results from the students who are at an advantage, which is what happened.
That advantage is not based on where they go to school though. It's based on the fact that they know more and perform better.
Now that might well be because of the school they attend, but that's because some schools are better than others for various reasons. The exams are not favouring the better schools. They're favouring the students who perform better.

VillageIdiot71 · 09-09-2020 11:52am

crossman47 wrote: »

If by the system, you mean the exam, then you are wrong. The marking of the exam is blind to the school involved. But private schools do have other advantages like smaller classes, etc.

Which is obviously the issue. The blind marking reveals the issue, rather than being just an objective assessment of merit. If you saw an assessment system that could be broken by paying the right person, most folk in most circumstances would see that as a problem.

tjhook · 09-09-2020 11:54am

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

Then you'd expect uniform results across all schools, following the same curriculum. Unless certain folk are inherently superior?

That's a bit naive.

Some people *are* inherently better academically. I wouldn't describe them as "inherently superior" in the general sense (That'd just be trolling). And birds of a feather flock together. If I value education, and I see students of a school consistently getting better results, I'll do what I can to get my child there. You see that even where an area has two public schools.

To bring things back on topic, high-achieving students in *that* school are being punished by the system put in place for the Leaving Cert this year. You're obviously ok with that, and that's fine. Others aren't ok with it.

VillageIdiot71 · 09-09-2020 11:57am

RealJohn wrote: »

I teach in a disadvantaged area. My students have benefitted this year and I'm delighted for them.

You are obviously not delighted for them, and you go on go say you wish other pupils got better results under this system by taking account if factors that your pupils could not have availed of.

You want your 2020 pupils to do relatively worse than they did. That's not delight.

RealJohn · 09-09-2020 12:00pm

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

Which is obviously the issue. The blind marking reveals the issue, rather than being just an objective assessment of merit. If you saw an assessment system that could be broken by paying the right person, most folk in most circumstances would see that as a problem.

It's not being broken though. They're "paying the right person" to help them gain more knowledge and ability, in order to perform better. They're not "paying the right person" to get an undeserved grade.

VillageIdiot71 · 09-09-2020 12:02pm

tjhook wrote: »

That's a bit naive.

Some people *are* inherently better academically. I wouldn't describe them as "inherently superior" in the general sense (That'd just be trolling). And birds of a feather flock together. If I value education, and I see students of a school consistently getting better results, I'll do what I can to get my child there. You see that even where an area has two public schools.

To bring things back on topic, high-achieving students in *that* school are being punished by the system put in place for the Leaving Cert this year. You're obviously ok with that, and that's fine. Others aren't ok with it.

I'm happy that an issue has been highlighted, and I notice how folk are troubled by it.

You'll appreciate, no one is being punished for attending any school this year. That's the thing that people want to change in how results have been determined.

RealJohn · 09-09-2020 12:04pm

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

You are obviously not delighted for them, and you go on go say you wish other pupils got better results under this system by taking account if factors that your pupils could not have availed of.

You want your 2020 pupils to do relatively worse than they did. That's not delight.

Maybe you should practice your reading, because I did not say that I "wish" anything, nor do I "want" my students to have done relatively worse than they did. I'm just not blind to the fact that they should have.

RealJohn · 09-09-2020 12:05pm

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

You'll appreciate, no one is being punished for attending any school this year. That's the thing that people want to change in how results have been determined.

No one is punished for attending any school any year.

VillageIdiot71 · 09-09-2020 12:07pm

RealJohn wrote: »

It's not being broken though. They're "paying the right person" to help them gain more knowledge and ability, in order to perform better. They're not "paying the right person" to get an undeserved grade.

Oh, please. If performance is so closely related to what school you attended, it means pupils face significantly uneven opportunities.

And, really, reread your post above and reflect on what you say about your own pupils. Because I do appreciate you just have a blind spot on this.

tjhook · 09-09-2020 12:08pm

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

You'll appreciate, no one is being punished for attending any school this year. That's the thing that people want to change in how results have been determined.

Two students produce great (identical) work in the German subject. One of them is in St. Killan's. The other is in School X. The student in St. Killian's is graded down because they attend a school with others who also do great at German. The student in School X keeps the high grade because there are fewer students with such German skills. But they have the same proficiency.

That's the very point of this thread.

rainbowtrout · 09-09-2020 12:13pm

screamer wrote: »

Funny how it’s been fine up to this year for the discrimination to happen when taking the historical performance into account when grading papers. It’s only now the elite schools are allegedly being discriminated against we’re seeing letters and legal action.
I don’t agree with any of it, you should be graded on your achievement and not on your school name, and that should always be the case. Applying bell curves also affects the grades and that should be done away with also. The leaving cert is just being exposed for the joke it is.

Except they're not. Papers are graded anonymously. Examiners don't know what schools the papers come from. Students are only identified by exam number.

RealJohn · 09-09-2020 12:15pm

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

If performance is so closely related to what school you attended, it means pupils face significantly uneven opportunities.

Nobody's denying that, but that isn't the point. Rewarding people equally when one person is clearly more able/skilled/knowledgable than the other is not fair, and it's not right. The fact that they face uneven opportunities is not fair either, but that should be addressed by addressing the unevenness of opportunity, not by pretending that the achievements are equal.

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

And, really, reread your post above and reflect on what you say about your own pupils. Because I do appreciate you just have a blind spot on this.

If you can't read, that's your problem, not mine. If you have to misrepresent me to make your case, it just shows that you have no case.

VillageIdiot71 · 09-09-2020 12:35pm

tjhook wrote: »

Two students produce great (identical) work in the German subject. One of them is in St. Killan's. The other is in School X. The student in St. Killian's is graded down because they attend a school with others who also do great at German. The student in School X keeps the high grade because there are fewer students with such German skills. But they have the same proficiency.

That's the very point of this thread.

But that point is really addressed by the AAM post linked above.

VillageIdiot71 · 09-09-2020 12:42pm

RealJohn wrote: »

Nobody's denying that, but that isn't the point. Rewarding people equally when one person is clearly more able/skilled/knowledgable than the other is not fair, and it's not right. The fact that they face uneven opportunities is not fair either, but that should be addressed by addressing the unevenness of opportunity, not by pretending that the achievements are equal.

What you need to reflect on is that folk are seeking historical school level performance to be recognised, not individual ability, skill or knowledge.

RealJohn wrote: »

If you can't read, that's your problem, not mine. If you have to misrepresent me to make your case, it just shows that you have no case.

Again, you need to reflect on your post and the hollowness of your 'delight'.

Anything more to be said? Significant inequality of opportunity is fine, so long as you can buy your way out of it.

Only a problem when, unexpectedly, school is removed as a factor.

Normal service will resume in 2021.

forgottenhills · 09-09-2020 12:43pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

Of course students who go to fee paying schools are not inherently superior. But they will generally do well because their parents are really serious about education and being upwardly mobile so they will get their children every help they need eg extra grinds to beat the band and so forth as well as the fact they will probably be on their children's backs to do well bigtime. Also the children will be mixing with other children who are from the same backgrounds and have same values and they will feed off each other to succeed at exams and get into good college courses.

This is really lazy stuff. There are plenty of parents who have the choice and means to send their children to private schools or to public schools, care deeply about their education and choose the latter. This is because in almost all areas there are many public schools available where their kids will do just as well academically as private schools and there won't be the danger of inculcated arrogance or entitlement.

Having said that and getting back on topic St Kilians clearly looks to be a special case in relation to German as a subject and the Department should have taken steps to treat special cases like this correctly.

tjhook · 09-09-2020 12:45pm

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

But that point is really addressed by the AAM post linked above.

The guy who posted the AAM says

It is really wonkish, I suspect deliberately so; it would be a brave soul who would challenge the math

The facts:

"14% of Leaving Certificate students at St Kilian's Deutsche Schule received H1 grades in German this year, compared to 41% last year"

"We calculated 19 H1 marks. This is not an inflation of grades in German for our school. We were awarded 6 H1 grades."

If you were a student at this school, or had a child who was, you wouldn't feel that the grading system has worked against you, versus students at other schools?

PhilOssophy · 09-09-2020 12:51pm

The leaving cert should NEVER have been cancelled. It should have been put back to September and this batch of students start in college after Christmas. Within a few weeks of the LC being cancelled, LC students were on holidays in Portugal and Spain. You couldn't make it up.

Fine Gael bowed to a small bit of pressure (and then were sneaky enough to give FF the education portfolio) and the knock-on effect is going to be the mother of all rows, starting with CAO and then followed by the predicted grades comparisons.

This was simply inevitable. It was a ludicrous call.

VillageIdiot71 · 09-09-2020 12:54pm

tjhook wrote: »

The guy who posted the AAM says The facts:

"14% of Leaving Certificate students at St Kilian's Deutsche Schule received H1 grades in German this year, compared to 41% last year"

"We calculated 19 H1 marks. This is not an inflation of grades in German for our school. We were awarded 6 H1 grades."

If you were a student at this school, or had a child who was, you wouldn't feel that the grading system has worked against you, versus students at other schools?

Do you think that picking through the minutiae of results in one subject in one highly atypical school is a meaningful way of addressing the issue?

Systematically, what do people want? Do you want individual performance to be decreased, according to the historical performance of that individuals school?

Because we all know what that entails.

VillageIdiot71 · 09-09-2020 12:58pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

The leaving cert should NEVER have been cancelled. It should have been put back to September and this batch of students start in college after Christmas. Within a few weeks of the LC being cancelled, LC students were on holidays in Portugal and Spain. You couldn't make it up.

Fine Gael bowed to a small bit of pressure (and then were sneaky enough to give FF the education portfolio) and the knock-on effect is going to be the mother of all rows, starting with CAO and then followed by the predicted grades comparisons.

This was simply inevitable. It was a ludicrous call.

In fairness, there's a wider issue around that which is hard to address without sounding like Gemma O'Doherty.

And I don't mean the absence of pork sausages from Halal shops. Large scale gatherings have been curtailed everywhere, not just Ireland.

tjhook · 09-09-2020 12:58pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

The leaving cert should NEVER have been cancelled. It should have been put back to September and this batch of students start in college after Christmas.

My concerns would extend to next year. We have overall grade inflation this year (albeit particular groups are put at a disadvantage)

If somebody doesn't get the course they want this year, they can apply again next year using this year's points, when presumably there will be a Leaving Cert and points will be back to normal. I.e. people doing a LC next year will be competing with people who have inflated grades from this year. Normally it might not be a huge factor, but if people feel that waiting a year will get them that coveted place on a high-demand course...

It's not inevitable. I suppose one way forward would be to "bake in" this year's grade inflation for future years. But that could have other consequences.

jimmycrackcorm · 09-09-2020 1:01pm

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I assume gaelscoil had the same issue with Irish? I mean I would expect they historically have high results. If the algorithm is not taking the school into account, surely they should be way down?

My kid did both primary and secondary in gaelscoil and is obviously fluent. I was really surprised at his result for Irish as it was lower than his typical exam results. Overall did well so happy enough but I suspect that there was a algorithmic reduction.

forgottenhills · 09-09-2020 1:14pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

The leaving cert should NEVER have been cancelled. It should have been put back to September and this batch of students start in college after Christmas. Within a few weeks of the LC being cancelled, LC students were on holidays in Portugal and Spain. You couldn't make it up.

Fine Gael bowed to a small bit of pressure (and then were sneaky enough to give FF the education portfolio) and the knock-on effect is going to be the mother of all rows, starting with CAO and then followed by the predicted grades comparisons.

This was simply inevitable. It was a ludicrous call.

Not at all. Teachers were rightly concerned about COVID-19 as were parents and schools were closed and on site exams cancelled to almost universal approval. If you saw the efforts that schools have had to go through to try to re-open this autumn then you would know that it would have been an impossible problem to also hold on site exams in September. Plus you would have had the problem of having students work through the summer which would be unreasonable.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 09-09-2020 1:14pm

There is a misconception about the level of German in St. Kilians. As a German speaker and someone who sent their kids to that school, the standard of German is not that good, especially when you consider that the kids are supposed to be speaking the language from 4 years old. The reality is that most of the kids who graduate from that school are not as proficient in German as you would expect for someone who has been speaking the language for most of their life.

The language issue in St. Kilians is a big sticking point for many parents and many parents have left the school because of it.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 09-09-2020 1:16pm

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

In fairness, there's a wider issue around that which is hard to address without sounding like Gemma O'Doherty.

And I don't mean the absence of pork sausages from Halal shops. Large scale gatherings have been curtailed everywhere, not just Ireland.

Not as much in Sweden.

tjhook · 09-09-2020 1:24pm

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

Do you think that picking through the minutiae of results in one subject in one highly atypical school is a meaningful way of addressing the issue?

Systematically, what do people want? Do you want individual performance to be decreased, according to the historical performance of that individuals school?

I think the grading system is constructed in a way that disadvantages students in high-achieving schools/classes. St Killian's is an example of this. I do find that meaningful. Ignoring it might suit people with a particular outlook, but I don't find it fair.

I'm not an educator. But at the risk of making a fool of myself, perhaps a better system would:

- receive calculated grades from teachers
- compare these grades to previous years LC results in the same school/class.
- Accept those calculated grades *unless they are inconsistent with previous years*.
- If they are inconsistent with previous years, then look closer at the students' junior cycle performance, term tests etc. Only if those are out of whack with the estimated grades, then up/downgrading that class.
- Finally, when there are grades for everybody, apply a bell-curve nationally to the overall result set. Similar to what I believe is done every year anyway.

Now I don't really know if this would work, and it's certainly no replacement for a proper LC. But if not, surely there's *some* grading system that treats everybody the same.

St. Kilians German school open letter to DoES

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