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Who created the 26 counties?

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245

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    #32
    Gee Bag
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    Article 4
    The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.


    Article 4 of the constitution gives the offical name of the state. Seems we are called Éire and Ireland (which surprised me).

    Personally I don't really mind people mixing up the Southern/Republic of Ireland thing. After all, nobody really calls North Korea by its slightly deceptive offical name, the Democratic Republic of Korea!



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    #33
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Gee Bag wrote: »


    Article 4 of the constitution gives the offical name of the state. Seems we are called Éire and Ireland (which surprised me).

    Personally I don't really mind people mixing up the Southern/Republic of Ireland thing. After all, nobody really calls North Korea by its slightly deceptive offical name, the Democratic Republic of Korea!


    To be pedantic the Irish version of text is actually the official text, the english version is a translation. If we are to fully translate it then we get the following:
    Éire is ainm don Stát nó, sa Sacs-Bhéarla, Ireland
    The name of the State is Ireland, or, in the English
    language    , Ireland.

    Of course the word Ireland derives from éire + land (with the é lobbed off -- Cambro-Normans for ye!)


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    #34
    Gee Bag
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    dubhthach wrote: »
    To be pedantic the Irish version of text is actually the official text,

    Of course the word Ireland derives from éire + land (with the é lobbed off -- Cambro-Normans for ye!)

    I always thought I was from a place called Éireann.


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    #35
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Hhmm, I agree a lot of Brits get confused about which bit of Ireland is which, but in fairness a quick read through some AH threads shows that there is a certain amount of confusion about what is England/Scotland/Britain.

    I've pointed out many times that an athlete, swimmer or cyclist is British not English and that it is the British team and not English. To which the usual reply is "ah, its the same thing really".

    Chris Hoy might disagree.


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    #36
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Gee Bag wrote: »
    I always thought I was from a place called Éireann.

    Éireann is the genitive case of Éire. Just as Dubhthaigh is the genitive case of Dubhthach, this marks where one noun modifies another one (eg shows possession of one noun on other). So prime example here would be -- Poblacht na hÉireann

    Poblacht (noun 1) affects/acts on Éire (noun 2) thus you use the genitive case (Éireann).

    other examples would be (it's also used as plural)
    Sasanach -> Sasanaigh (Englishman -> Englishmen)
    Connachtach -> Connachtaigh (Connachtman -> Connachtmen)
    Ultach -> Ultaigh (Ulsterman -> Ulstermen)


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    #37
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    corktina wrote: »
    the name of the state is Ireland in the same way that the Republic of France is referred to as France.

    As a matter of interest, most Britlish people refer to it NOT as the Republic but as Southern Ireland,(as in the Opposite of Northen Ireland presumably) a wholly incorrect description which I'm amazed the Irish don't ever seem to object to, particularly those in Donegal who live further North than anywhere in Northern Ireland!

    Southern Ireland is not a wholly incorrect description. The Government of Ireland Act of 1920 created Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland remained as it was but Southern Ireland evolved itself to the Republic of Ireland.
    Referring to Southern Ireland is no worse than referring to Zimbabwe as Rhodesia or Myanamar as Burma.


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    #38
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Hhmm, I agree a lot of Brits get confused about which bit of Ireland is which, but in fairness a quick read through some AH threads shows that there is a certain amount of confusion about what is England/Scotland/Britain.

    I've pointed out many times that an athlete, swimmer or cyclist is British not English and that it is the British team and not English. To which the usual reply is "ah, its the same thing really".

    Chris Hoy might disagree.

    Andy Murray certainly would.

    Just like a Welshman would also disagree. Please feel free to call the Paralympic Gold Medallist discus thrower Aled Davies an Englishman, and see how far that gets you...

    tac


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    #39
    im invisible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,372 ✭✭✭im invisible


    something something great british rowers...


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    #40
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    As a corollary to the question, when were the 32 counties one nation?


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    #41
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    MadsL wrote: »
    As a corollary to the question, when were the 32 counties one nation?

    For a short period in December 1922 before Northern Ireland chose to secede.


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    #42
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    For a short period in December 1922 before Northern Ireland chose to secede.

    ...and before that?


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    #43
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    Fenian Army wrote: »
    When the ignorant ask "which Ireland" I'm from, I simply reply "Ireland". I don't have a partitionist mindset.

    As if there'd be a major difference if I happened to live 20 mins up the road! (compared to say crossing borders in continental Europe)
    are you sure ? why do some irish believe that everyone from the UK has it in for them,they seem to want to take every thing thats not politically correct as a insult, moaning about someone who says southern irish,yet seem quite happy to call those in the north nordies,the scots often call the english sassenach[gaelic word means southener] it doesent upset the english one bit,why get worked up there is no real intent to be insulting,


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    #44
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    MadsL wrote: »
    ...and before that?

    There were no counties in Ireland before the British came.


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    #45
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    There were no counties in Ireland before the British came.

    That's not what I asked. I asked when were the existing 32 counties (ie the whole Island) a single nation before that?


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    #46
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    MadsL wrote: »
    That's not what I asked. I asked when were the existing 32 counties (ie the whole Island) a single nation before that?

    Depends on what you define as a Nation, is it that you mean a unitary state? In that case Germany didn't exist as a nation before 1871 and Italy wasn't a nation before 1870.


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    #47
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Depends on what you define as a Nation, is it that you mean a unitary state? In that case Germany didn't exist as a nation before 1871 and Italy wasn't a nation before 1870.

    Simple definition, single unified independent entity ruled by a single government/leader/chief/clan/tribe etc.


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    #48
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    MadsL wrote: »
    Simple definition, single unified independent entity ruled by a single government/leader/chief/clan/tribe etc.

    So you believe that the German nation only came into existence in 1871 then?


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    #49
    whitelines
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 159 ✭✭whitelines


    dubhthach wrote: »
    So you believe that the German nation only came into existence in 1871 then?

    Seems reasonable. When do you think it came into existence?


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    #50
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    dubhthach wrote: »
    So you believe that the German nation only came into existence in 1871 then?

    I'm not talking about 'belief' or trying to prove a point. I'm curious as to when the Irish 'nation' was first considered a 'nation'.

    The phrase 'a nation once again' springs to mind, ergo when was Ireland a 'nation' prior to 1922.


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    #51
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    MadsL wrote: »
    I'm not talking about 'belief' or trying to prove a point. I'm curious as to when the Irish 'nation' was first considered a 'nation'.

    The phrase 'a nation once again' springs to mind, ergo when was Ireland a 'nation' prior to 1922.

    Well at least one early reference to a nation -- in the context of Gaeldom -- is the letter of King Robert I of Scotland that dates from 1315:
    Whereas we and you and our people and your people, free since ancient times, share the same national ancestry and are urged to come together more eagerly and joyfully in friendship by a common language and by common custom, we have sent you our beloved kinsman, the bearers of this letter, to negotiate with you in our name about permanently strengthening and maintaining inviolate the special friendship between us and you, so that with God's will our nation (nostra nacio) may be able to recover her ancient liberty.

    Of course his brother Edward Bruce was proclaimed King of Ireland in 1315, only later to be killed in the Battle of Faughart in 1318.

    From same time period we see the famous Remonstrance (to the pope) of 1317, which several times talks about an "Irish nation".


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    #52
    indioblack
    Registered Users Posts: 1,936 ✭✭✭indioblack


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    Agree on the North/South 'geographic' bit, but my experience when working for an English company was that everyone invariably called it 'Eire' which for some reason I found more annoying. It provoked me to start referring to the branch in Wales as the office in Cymru and suggested that it be referred to as such in company literature to ensure consistency..... (Exasperated cry from Marketing Dept.- 'Look, it bloody Eire, that's what you have on you money isn't it!')


    Took a parcel into the post office this morning.
    "What's the destination?"
    "Ireland", I said.
    "Southern Ireland?"
    "Yes".
    I'd written EIRE in big capitals. Why? Because I've been doing it since the early 1960's on all my mail to Ireland.
    The important part was "Co.Cork" - it's destination.
    The main thing is my mail always arrives - perhaps the postmen in Ireland are too polite to send it back.


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    #53
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Our postal service is still a state entity, so in my experience the service is better (definitely in rural areas.)
    Nobody here sees it as a 'big deal', but writing/speaking in English the name is ‘Ireland’ and ‘Eire’ when writing in Irish. Addressing an envelope to ‘Eire’ when the rest of the address is in English is rather like writing Caerdydd for an address in Cardiff.


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    #54
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Is that the same postal service that writes "Eire" on its stamps?


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    #55
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Is that the same postal service that writes "Eire" on its stamps?

    Yes. Like all state and semi-state entities in Ireland the postal service is encouraged to use Irish in its communication. Its name - 'An Post' - is Irish and its old postboxes have the 'P 7 T' logo, which also is Irish. 'Eire' appearing on its own on the stamps is linguistically correct.
    The Irish Postal Service always uses/used Eire on its stamps, except when we were the Irish Free State, when it used the Irish translation 'Saorstat Eireann'.

    Great Britain AFAIK never puts the country name on its stamps, just the monarch's head.


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    #56
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    Yes. Like all state and semi-state entities in Ireland the postal service is encouraged to use Irish in its communication. Its name - 'An Post' - is Irish and its old postboxes have the 'P 7 T' logo, which also is Irish. 'Eire' appearing on its own on the stamps is linguistically correct.
    The Irish Postal Service always uses/used Eire on its stamps, except when we were the Irish Free State, when it used the Irish translation 'Saorstat Eireann'.

    Great Britain AFAIK never puts the country name on its stamps, just the monarch's head.
    what country should the the people in the UK put on their stamps,england,wales,scotland,northern ireland ?dont say britain because it is not a country,


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    #57
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    getz wrote: »
    what country should the the people in the UK put on their stamps,england,wales,scotland,northern ireland ?dont say britain because it is not a country,

    Those in Scotland and Wales (devolved governments with a constitutional monarch) could put those names on stamps along with the monarch's head if they were allowed to do so.
    My point from the outset has been that a letter addressed to
    John Smith,
    Main Street,
    Newtown,
    Co Cork.
    EIRE

    has the same linguistic error as a letter addressed to

    John Smith,
    Main Street,
    Swansea,
    CYMRU


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    #58
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Is this a thread about the postal service now?


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    #59
    im invisible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,372 ✭✭✭im invisible


    I think its about to go postal allright


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    #60
    paky
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭paky


    whitelines wrote: »
    Religion was an important parameter at that time and one on which many borders between states were settled. In any case, then as now, the terms Protestant and Catholic were as much ethnic labels as anything else. You could say that the new border was put in place in order to recognise the reality of two peoples living on the island - The Irish and The Ulster British - both entitled to self determination.

    Since when was being Catholic considered to be distinctly Irish?


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    #61
    whitelines
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 159 ✭✭whitelines


    paky wrote: »
    Since when was being Catholic considered to be distinctly Irish?

    Catholicism was as central to Irish identity, as Protestantism was to British identity. Had Ireland been Protestant it might well still be part of The UK, or alternatively all of Ireland might be independent.


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