ICU presidet resignation

adrianshanahan · 08-01-2013 9:16pm

nouse4aname wrote: »

"I can't really comment on that (referring to the Training Centre). I'd like to see the course numbers myself but it could be due to factors outside the control of the GM''.

The Training Center is run by the office / GM nothing to do with the TDU what so ever, so the GM would be best to ask about how it's run / courses being run in it.

(For the record one of the Chairs of the technical commonalities who voted against the now famous motion was employed by the office/GM to run sessions out of the training center, not saying there is anything wrong with that just stating fat)

nouse4aname wrote: »

the TDU is just one small sub-committee of Canoeing Ireland. Up until recently, it happened to be a sub-committee which i had very little interest in.

The TDU is one of the larger groups who's chair sits on CI's board, in fact I'm almost sure that is the the second largest if the numbers I was told are correct.

nouse4aname wrote: »

My gripe with you on previous threads was that you stated you had "no problem" with financially rewarding TDU members for their work. Why should that be the case? Is their work any more valuable than what Michelle does as a volunteer for canoe polo? This is why certain folks in canoeing view the TDU as a glorified trade union for instructors.

Again just for clarity's sake the TDU is not a glorified trade union for commercial providers, and the general members are not financially rewarded for their work. If I was to do a straw poll I would guess that 90% + members of the TDU are non commercial providers.

I know nouse4aname you will just write off anything I say regarding the TDU because you assume I'm some sort of hardened paddle sport capitalist and only want to make money from paddle sport.

I like many members of the TDU have given our time to serving on technical committees, helping with our local clubs (personally I help where I can with KACC and have never once taken a cent in payment for doing anything for them) I am sure I am not the exception to the rule.

Like wise there are many members of the technical committees who have worked as instructors in the past. Nothing wrong with that either.

The way I see it paddle sport in Ireland is so small that many people are like myself, yes I am an instructor (therefore a member of the TDU) but I have also competed in many of the other disciplines over the year. (Surf, Marathon, Polo, Freestyle, not necessarily any use at any of them) the thing is we are all part of what makes up CI and all have played many differing roles.

This does not make one section or sun section more important than any of the others, if people continue to try point blame on one section say the TDU for pig irons sake all that will happen is a situation like we have currently people trying to endlessly prove a point they think is right and god dam no one else could have any valid points. This is happening on both side of the debate so please don't think I am singling any individual out.

Where do we go from here, well that is up the the membership as a whole.

One logical course of action is to hold the EGM as planned, re form the board. And then if the membership want they can re call a EGM via the correct channels and at that EGM propose motions that can change the entire structure of CI to something that might just work. What those motions are is a far more complex issue.

I do still think we as members of CI need to put to straight any lack of transparency in relation to the appointment of the GM. Again this is a more complex issue and nothing personally against the GM in person. I voted for Karl on to the executive and recognize his work carried out to date. But if we are ever going to break free from our recent history surely we should do this in as clear and transparent way possible?

It is not easy but if we all put behind our personal bias and emotions aside and discuss this in a reasoned and rational manor surely we can sort out the mess that CI is currently in and there will be a bright future for paddle sport in Ireland?

nouse4aname · 08-01-2013 9:40pm

adrianshanahan wrote: »

I know nouse4aname you will just write off anything I say regarding the TDU because you assume I'm some sort of hardened paddle sport capitalist and only want to make money from paddle sport.

Not at all! I don't know you and can only judge you on what you write here and on other forums.

seanieb · 08-01-2013 9:54pm

nouse4aname wrote: »

I've often heard a rumour that TDU members claim petrol expenses when they attend committee meetings. Is this just an old wives tale or is there any truth to it?

It is true. And what on earth would you have against a that?

This is common practice with NGO's. If someone was elected to the postion, surely they shouldn't have to pay out of their own pockets to do a the job. Maybe ye should just make sure everyone is from Dublin so as to save money.

nouse4aname · 08-01-2013 10:21pm

seanieb wrote: »

It is true. And what on earth would you have against a that?

This is common practice with NGO's. If someone was elected to the postion, surely they shouldn't have to pay out of their own pockets to do a the job. Maybe ye should just make sure everyone is from Dublin so as to save money.

Glad you asked! What i have against that, is to my knowledge all other committee members in Canoeing Ireland have not asked for a single red cent... I've spent my share of time and money sitting on technical committees and i never asked for anything in return.

I will repeat my earlier comment:

The TDU is just one sub-committee of Canoeing Ireland. Just like marathon, just like polo, just like slalom.

So what makes them so special????

And don't bother pulling the "West of Ireland" card Seanie! I can list plenty of members of technical committees who have traveled all over the country for meetings every month (sometimes twice or three times a month). All these people do it at their own expense because they volunteer to do a job. If they're not willing to make sacrifices, they don't put their hand up at the AGM.

What makes the TDU so special that their members can claim petrol expenses while other committee members are not entitled to such privilage??? I think its rich that members of the TDU so openly attack the board, especially when those same board members are volunteers who have jobs outside of canoeing and willingly give up both their time and money for the benefit of our sport.

If i ever meet the former chair of the TDU, i'll ask him one question; did he claim petrol expenses when he attended CI board meeting, because i doubt any of the others did...

And a message to all TDU members who feel like openly attacking board members; pay for your petrol like everyone else, then i might actually listen to you ranting at honest volunteers! This confirmation proves my point that members of the TDU cannot differentiate between voluntary work and their day jobs...

adrianshanahan · 08-01-2013 10:35pm

nouse4aname

I would be on fairly good information that it would be the norm ranter than exception for members of CI board and exec to claim expenses gained in filling their duties as board members. This is the case with the current board for certain.

As for how the TDU committee run their affairs, like any of the technical committees surely it is up to them to decide how they spend their budget be it covering travel costs of its committees members to meetings.

The same would apply to any of the technical committees and how their committees run their affairs. Much like it is up to the organisation committee of the liffey decent and how it's members claimed expenses?

Can I ask you to address the points I made above in previous post?

nouse4aname · 08-01-2013 11:03pm

adrianshanahan wrote: »

nouse4aname

I would be on fairly good information that it would be the norm ranter than exception for members of CI board and exec to claim expenses gained in filling their duties as board members. This is the case with the current board for certain.

Just to clarify, you're stating that all board members are currently claiming travel expenses for attending meetings? I've spoken to 3 (one former) who never claimed a single red cent. Two are not Dublin based. So you don't have it on fairly good information!

Is your "fairly good information" perhaps coming from the former TDU chair who WAS claiming petrol expenses? If so, i'd say thats not a very good source. "Ah sure they all do it!" never sounds morally convincing to me...

adrianshanahan wrote: »

As for how the TDU committee run their affairs, like any of the technical committees surely it is up to them to decide how they spend their budget be it covering travel costs of its committees members to meetings. The same would apply to any of the technical committees and how their committees run their affairs.

Where does the TDU's budget come from? And who holds the TDU accountable for its budget? I would think that any money would be better spent furthering the sport of canoeing rather than lining the pockets of its members... The marathon committee bring in significant money into their coffers each year from race levees. If they were lining their pockets with it, they would literally be linched at the AGM. But then again, ordinary honest paddlers can show up at the marathon AGM and have their say. The same cannot be said for TDU AGMs. So where is the transparency??? When the TDU budget is presented at the AGM, it is presented to a room full of instructors, all with the same professional agenda. Is that objective and transparent?

Once again, is it no wonder certain people view the TDU as a glorified trade union for instructors?

nouse4aname · 08-01-2013 11:09pm

adrianshanahan wrote: »

Can I ask you to address the points I made above in previous post?

In response to your previous post:

I actually thought it was very good. You made a clear and objective argument defending the TDU and you didn't attack anyone. You also had some good ideas about how we might move forward. I'd have to say i was half convinced by the argument you put forward...

But then Seanie confirmed that TDU members claim petrol expenses so now i'm back to square 1.

seanieb · 08-01-2013 11:16pm

nouse4aname wrote: »

Glad you asked! What i have against that, is to my knowledge all other committee members in Canoeing Ireland have not asked for a single red cent... I've spent my share of time and money sitting on technical committees and i never asked for anything in return.

I will repeat my earlier comment:

The TDU is just one sub-committee of Canoeing Ireland. Just like marathon, just like polo, just like slalom.

So what makes them so special????

And don't bother pulling the "West of Ireland" card Seanie! I can list plenty of members of technical committees who have traveled all over the country for meetings every month (sometimes twice or three times a month). All these people do it at their own expense because they volunteer to do a job. If they're not willing to make sacrifices, they don't put their hand up at the AGM.

What makes the TDU so special that their members can claim petrol expenses while other committee members are not entitled to such privilage??? I think its rich that members of the TDU so openly attack the board, especially when those same board members are volunteers who have jobs outside of canoeing and willingly give up both their time and money for the benefit of our sport.

If i ever meet the former chair of the TDU, i'll ask him one question; did he claim petrol expenses when he attended CI board meeting, because i doubt any of the others did...

And a message to all TDU members who feel like openly attacking board members; pay for your petrol like everyone else, then i might actually listen to you ranting at honest volunteers! This confirmation proves my point that members of the TDU cannot differentiate between voluntary work and their day jobs...

I'm quoting this as it's utterly ridiculous. Volunteering does not require the volunteer to donate their own money as well as their time. How can you even try equating petrol expenses to pay?

If other people don't claim petrol expenses, thats their prerogative. The ICU pays petrol expenses so people from all of the country can easily participate in the organisation, not just those that live in Dublin or those that can afford it.

Also, you pick a really funny expenditure to get all uptight about. You should take a look at the books when the ICU had nearly a million in turnover.

PS. Other technical committees have alos claimed expenses in the past 10 years (including taxis for committee members form Dublin). So I dont know why you are pointing the finger at the TDU.

Zuppy · 08-01-2013 11:24pm

seanieb wrote: »

It is true. And what on earth would you have against a that?

This is common practice with NGO's. If someone was elected to the postion, surely they shouldn't have to pay out of their own pockets to do a the job. Maybe ye should just make sure everyone is from Dublin so as to save money.

While I agree that someone should not be out of pocket for volunteering their services and that Petrol money seems like a fair way of doing it, especially when a lot of committees hold their meetings in Dublin and it makes no sense to drag 80% of a committee large distances to Cork or Galway/Sligo.

I have to disagree that this is common practice with NGB's and I can speak for at least two other sports in this respect. It is most definitly not common practice anomgst sporting bodies or social groups I have been a part of.

Also I am certain that some of the technical committees should introduce this to promote more regional representation. Should funds be available to use like this. Maybe the TDU could spare some more cash.

If the TDU budget stretches to this and the facility is available to all sub committees, I see no problem. If this funding is taken from other projects and this has been ok'ed then I see no problem for the TDU to account for this at their AGM, as we can see, the TDU cannot fill it's positions so either its incentive hasn't worked or it needs to come up with more.

It does seem odd! But then if they were going to pay my petrol to all the meetings, I might join them. The cost if too many members of the committee came from far afield might prove a bit high.

nouse4aname · 08-01-2013 11:33pm

seanieb wrote: »

I dont know why you are pointing the finger at the TDU.

I think i explained very clearly why i'm pointing the finger at the TDU. Because this is not common practice on other technical committees in Canoeing Ireland. So what makes the TDU so special???

I am disappointed that it goes on and i genuinely thought it was just an urban myth.

PS- Justifying it be saying "sure look at all the crap that went on before" is poor. What went on with the old crowd was a disgrace but it doesn't make this any more morally justifiable...

KenHy · 08-01-2013 11:53pm

Ah now - there was a sensible conversation going on here - petrol expenses? Seriously?

No matter what side of the debate your coming from if anyone is going to try to use as trivial a point as the culture behind claiming back reasonably incurred expenses as justification for their arguments then clearly they are so blinded by a particular POV there is no point in continuing the debate.

Zuppy · 09-01-2013 12:07am

KenHy wrote: »

Ah now - there was a sensible conversation going on here - petrol expenses? Seriously?

No matter what side of the debate your coming from if anyone is going to try to use as trivial a point as the culture behind claiming back reasonably incurred expenses as justification for their arguments then clearly they are so blinded by a particular POV there is no point in continuing the debate.

Yip, we have officially run out of legally safe speculation to use and now we are slightly off topic. :-)

Well spotted. Now has anyone any other thoughts on the Union?

nouse4aname · 09-01-2013 12:10am

KenHy wrote: »

Ah now - there was a sensible conversation going on here - petrol expenses? Seriously?

No matter what side of the debate your coming from if anyone is going to try to use as trivial a point as the culture behind claiming back reasonably incurred expenses as justification for their arguments then clearly they are so blinded by a particular POV there is no point in continuing the debate.

I'm not trying to derail the positive discussion that's been going on here but if we're gonna discuss the problems between the TDU and the rest of Canoeing Ireland then this needs to be discussed. You previously said the TDU cannot get the technical committees to see eye to eye with them. Is it no wonder, when there are rules for them and not others... This is not common practice on other committees. Can't you see the problem with that???

If Canoeing Ireland pay travel expenses to TDU members but not other committees then thats wrong. Either pay all committee members expenses or don't pay any. I prefer the second option but either way there needs to be equality.

Again I ask, what makes the TDU so special?

nouse4aname · 09-01-2013 12:13am

Seriously! Am I the only one here that see's a problem with one group being allowed to claim expenses and not the rest???

seanieb · 09-01-2013 12:25am

nouse4aname wrote: »

Seriously! Am I the only one here that see's a problem with one group being allowed to claim expenses and not the rest???

What you have siad here is FALSE. They can all claim expenses if they need to.

Legitimate reimbursement happens, it has happened on the ICU board and executive, other organizations do so and there is a good reasons to do so.

nouse4aname · 09-01-2013 12:49am

seanieb wrote: »

What you have siad here is FALSE. They can all claim expenses if they need to.

Legitimate reimbursement happens, it has happened on the ICU board and executive, other organizations do so and there is a good reasons to do so.

How is this false? It doesn't happen on any of the other technical committees (certainly none that i know of). The TDU is not the board or the executive; it is a technical committee like slalom, like polo, like marathon.

Is it written in our articles of association that technical committee members can reclaim travel expenses? If so, when was that decided?

nouse4aname · 09-01-2013 1:00am

If there is a clear, open and transparent policy of reimbursing all technical committee members (regardless of what committee they serve on) then:

1) It is news to me.

and

2) I apologize to all concerned for the last hour of me ranting. :pac:

I don't believe there is such a policy though...

seanieb · 09-01-2013 1:26am

nouse4aname wrote: »

How is this false? It doesn't happen on any of the other technical committees (certainly none that i know of).....

I think your knowledge of the ICU has been faulty once or twice ion this conversation...just saying:D.

nouse4aname wrote: »

Is it written in our articles of association that technical committee members can reclaim travel expenses? If so, when was that decided?

I've no idea, but it doesn't matter. Expenditure is at the discression of the board and the excessive board themselves. Oh, and for bonus points...guess what else isn't in the articles of association?! The GM role.

nouse4aname · 09-01-2013 1:41am

seanieb wrote: »

I think your knowledge of the ICU has been faulty once or twice ion this conversation...just saying:D.

Yeah you're right, maybe i should talk to the Women's polo chair before posting... :P

seanieb · 09-01-2013 6:08am

nouse4aname wrote: »

Yeah you're right, maybe i should talk to the Women's polo chair before posting... :P

Touche.

Paddle Hard · 09-01-2013 9:16am

Recent posts did take away from healthy debate yet again.
Some FACTS!
1. People are entitled to claim travel and subsistence within certain parameters. The travel and subsistence policy was redrafted under the recently resigned executive and the rest of the board.
Some choose not to avail of this facility, some aren't even aware that they can.

2. The motion which led to the resignation of the Executive and certain Board members had nothing to do with how the GM position came about, whether or not it's creation should be reviewed, whether or not the process was flawed or transparent or fair or any of the other descriptions which have been used in earlier threads.
The board were asked to support a motion put forward by the President and supported by the Executive. When repeatedly asked why the motion should be supported absoloutely no solid information was provided. Board members were asked in effect to vote blindly. Several Board members asked for clarification as to why the exec felt so strongly about their position they did not put forward any supporting argument. This left a number of Board members unable to support the motion. It fell, the Executive resigned.

Board Member.

P.S fell free to pm me if I can answer any other question I will try to do so. Point worth noting. Since this debacle began only three people have asked me what actually went on, interesting.... Please don't rely on the internet for "facts".

adrianshanahan · 09-01-2013 10:24am

Feel free to post or DM your name, phone number or email address and I'll happily add you to the list of board members I've spoken to about this.

multisport · 09-01-2013 10:45am

A few people seem to have highlighted the lack of use of the training centre, particularly over last summer for beginners courses.
It was spoken about at the last ADM that the number of beginners courses being run was down on previous years, the high river levels over the summer was cited as one of the reasons.

Paddle Hard · 09-01-2013 11:21am

@ Adrian, Will do.

seanieb · 09-01-2013 4:54pm

Paddle Hard wrote: »

Recent posts did take away from healthy debate yet again.
Some FACTS!
1. People are entitled to claim travel and subsistence within certain parameters. The travel and subsistence policy was redrafted under the recently resigned executive and the rest of the board.
Some choose not to avail of this facility, some aren't even aware that they can.

2. The motion which led to the resignation of the Executive and certain Board members had nothing to do with how the GM position came about, whether or not it's creation should be reviewed, whether or not the process was flawed or transparent or fair or any of the other descriptions which have been used in earlier threads.
The board were asked to support a motion put forward by the President and supported by the Executive. When repeatedly asked why the motion should be supported absoloutely no solid information was provided. Board members were asked in effect to vote blindly. Several Board members asked for clarification as to why the exec felt so strongly about their position they did not put forward any supporting argument. This left a number of Board members unable to support the motion. It fell, the Executive resigned.

Board Member.

P.S fell free to pm me if I can answer any other question I will try to do so. Point worth noting. Since this debacle began only three people have asked me what actually went on, interesting.... Please don't rely on the internet for "facts".

Thank you.

What would you see as the key items/issues to fix within the ICU structure or operations so that this doesn't occur again?

nouse4aname · 09-01-2013 10:01pm

Paddle Hard wrote: »

Recent posts did take away from healthy debate yet again.
Some FACTS!
1. People are entitled to claim travel and subsistence within certain parameters. The travel and subsistence policy was redrafted under the recently resigned executive and the rest of the board.
Some choose not to avail of this facility, some aren't even aware that they can.

Thanks for that information Paddle Hard! I had no intention of derailing what has been a very productive thread.

Apologies for yesterdays unnecessary ranting, everyone!

TheBlackJoke · 10-01-2013 11:42pm

nouse4aname · 11-01-2013 2:22am

Jaysus, someone has a fierce high opinion of who i am!!!

Its a bit off topic, but out of curiosity who are you referring to? Its possible i know them and I'm sure they'd be happy to see you accusing them of defrauding the government...

Regarding the rant, as i said apologies for derailing what has been a productive thread. I genuinely didn't know that this policy was available to all committee members (i'm assuming non-Dublin based committee). I would hope that everyone has been made aware of it and maybe it'll encourage more non-Dublin participation on all technical committees!

multisport · 17-01-2013 1:07pm

https://docs.google.com/file/d/1fDjOzScgSN4MOEXVB1EePa2i_yOs8hi1T9j6zALEmnB323M-zymNEGLSmi4Z/edit?pli=1

Statement January 2013

As an interim measure the Board of the Irish Canoe Union Limited T/A Canoeing Ireland ,
will continue to take responsibility for the operation of Canoeing Ireland, working with the GM and the
staff in the Office in the best interests of all its’ members and stakeholders .

The Board presently consists of seven members, the Chairpersons of disciplines, who were elected
democratically at discipline AGM’s by the paddling community at large.

The Board met on January 9th 2013 to discuss the date for the EDM. At this meeting it was agreed by
consensus to bring forward the date for the ADM from October 2013 to Saturday 9th March 2013. The
Annual Delegate Meeting will be convened in order to facilitate the election of a new Executive and
President. This decision was made on the timeline to allow sufficient time to prepare audited accounts
and also to avoid the necessity of holding an EDM and an ADM in close proximity.

The Board will meet again in two weeks time and ADM notices will be published shortly.

Yours Sincerely,

The Board of Irish Canoe Union Ltd T/A Canoeing Ireland

Ciaran Farrell, Chairperson Slalom
Eamon Fleming, Chairperson Sprint
Brendan O’Brien, Chairperson Marathon
Michelle Power, Chairperson Canoe Polo
Tadhg MacIntyre, Chairperson Wild Water Racing
Brendan Barry, Chairperson Surf
Adrian Durant, Chairperson Freestyle

ADM vs EDM, not going to please all of the people all of the time.
Personally I think an ADM is better as everything can be discussed instead of just a single issue of electing a new exec. But we have to wait a little longer.

Zuppy · 17-01-2013 1:54pm

multisport wrote: »

https://docs.google.com/file/d/1fDjOzScgSN4MOEXVB1EePa2i_yOs8hi1T9j6zALEmnB323M-zymNEGLSmi4Z/edit?pli=1

ADM vs EDM, not going to please all of the people all of the time.
Personally I think an EDM is better as everything can be discussed instead of just a single issue of electing a new exec. But we have to wait a little longer.

I thought the EDM was the single issue meeting?!?!?

The ADM has an agenda and motions can be put to the floor

ICU presidet resignation

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