The Academies

bayern · 18-01-2021 9:26pm

Leinster's backline was clearly 2nd best when it came to athleticism, size and speed against Ulster A at the weekend. Only Osborne didn't look out of place.

I think it's notable that the schools system, where leinster get the vast majority of their talent, hasn't produced many academy level outside backs over 6ft in the past 5 or so years and I was wondering why the gap.

As you said the club setup seems to be filling the gap with some notably big backs coming through system.

Paul Smeenus · 18-01-2021 10:56pm

Ironically, I thought the difference between the two backlines in the A game looked to be not height and size, but the top two inches.

UAEguy2020 · 18-01-2021 11:22pm

Quite afew seem to being coming through in the next u20 side it seems in Osborne,Kiely,Martin.

UAEguy2020 · 18-01-2021 11:24pm

As good as the schools are I don’t think they are quite able to make someone taller.

UAEguy2020 · 18-01-2021 11:25pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Ironically, I thought the difference between the two backlines in the A game looked to be not height and size, but the top two inches.

Exactly, like everything with Irish rugby we can focus on something less important like size rather than focusing on the actual problem which is again the top two inches, size doesn’t really matter if you are clueless on how to use it effectively.

luke9311 · 19-01-2021 12:00am

theVersatile wrote: »

Didn't know tall people had to exclusively join the schools...

The two best back prospects in Leinster at the moment, two clubs players, are both over 6'2 (Jamie Osborne and Karl Martin). I don't think there's any dearth of height or natural athleticism in Leinster (mind a declaration of "natural athlete" based on height alone is silly in its own right. Genetic specimen, maybe, but we know well genetic specimens don't automatically make great rugby players).

That Osborne anyway related to trinity’s rowan Osborne do you know?

Funny this was mention as outside backs and their size stats etc... based on last years cup run newbridges LBN looked a good prospect for academy spot although he has another year in a school I think but almost certain looking at him to be well under Bayern’s 6ft mark he’s on about. That kelly fella on the wing (can’t think of first name off my top my head) for Michael’s last year also looked a good prospect and again don’t know the stats etc for him but looking at him looked 6ft or over it. Haven’t heard of him since he left school tho as to where he’s playing or what he’s doing...

bayern · 19-01-2021 9:06am

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

As good as the schools are I don’t think they are quite able to make someone taller.

:rolleyes:

bayern · 19-01-2021 9:09am

luke9311 wrote: »

That Osborne anyway related to trinity’s rowan Osborne do you know?

Funny this was mention as outside backs and their size stats etc... based on last years cup run newbridges LBN looked a good prospect for academy spot although he has another year in a school I think but almost certain looking at him to be well under Bayern’s 6ft mark he’s on about. That kelly fella on the wing (can’t think of first name off my top my head) for Michael’s last year also looked a good prospect and again don’t know the stats etc for him but looking at him looked 6ft or over it. Haven’t heard of him since he left school tho as to where he’s playing or what he’s doing...

Ed Kelly, didn't make the leinster sub-academy.

LBN will struggle given his size, he has a lot of talent but it will be an uphill battle at pro level.. he has all the skills to be an excellent scrumhalf. But that would require far too much creative thinking to likely happen.

realhorrorshow · 19-01-2021 9:33am

bayern wrote: »

Ed Kelly, didn't make the leinster sub-academy.

LBN will struggle given his size, he has a lot of talent but it will be an uphill battle at pro level.. he has all the skills to be an excellent scrumhalf. But that would require far too much creative thinking to likely happen.

Honestly it's not even that creative to take an extremely talented but small footballer and try him at 9. In fairness, sometimes players can be extremely bullish about playing a certain position (not saying that's the case here).

bayern · 19-01-2021 9:53am

realhorrorshow wrote: »

Honestly it's not even that creative to take an extremely talented but small footballer and try him at 9. In fairness, sometimes players can be extremely bullish about playing a certain position (not saying that's the case here).

I agree its not that creative, but I doubt it will happen with LBN.

UAEguy2020 · 19-01-2021 1:00pm

He could do a job on the wing possibly.

BigJimV · 19-01-2021 1:24pm

Irish provenances recently appear to be picking big players, 6ft or over for age grade rep sides or the academies. Is this a policy? pick the bigger lads and try and turn them into rugby players.

Look at the wing and recent rep sides and academy selection, if your not 6ft+ they are not interested. Would Keith Earls, Dave Kearney or Andy Conway get selected in age grade or academies now?? There are plenty of 5ft 11 or smaller wingers playing pro rugby in top flight clubs in Europe. See examples, I am sure plenty missing from this list.

GALLAGHER PREMIERSHIP WINGERS
Exeter Chiefs
RW: Jack Nowell – 1.8m (5ft 11ins)/98kgs (15st 6lbs)

Harlequins
LW: Vereniki Goneva – 1.75m (5ft 9ins)/102kgs (16st 1lb)
RW: Gabriel Ibitoye – 1.78m (5ft 10ins)/92kgs (14st 7lbs)

Saracens
RW: Rotimi Segun – 1.8m (5ft 11ins)/92kgs (14st 7lbs)

Wasps
LW: Marcus Watson – 1.78m (5ft 10ins)/88kgs (13st 12lbs)
RW: Zach Kibirige – 1.78m (5ft 10ins)/83kgs (13st 1lb)

GUINNESS PRO14 WINGERS

Cheetahs
LW: Rabz Maxwane – 1.81m (5ft 11ins)/83kgs (13st 1lb)

Glasgow Warriors
LW: Niko Matawalu – 1.78m (5ft 10ins)/85kgs (13st 5lbs)

Leinster
RW: Dave Kearney- 1.8m (5ft 11ins)/90kgs (14st 2lbs)

Munster
LW: Keith Earls – 1.78m (5ft 10ins)/87kgs (13st 10lbs)
RW: Andrew Conway – 1.8m (5ft 11ins)/90kgs (14st 2lbs)

Scarlets
LW: Steff Evans – 1.78m (5ft 10ins)/82kgs (12st 13lbs)
RW: Ryan Conbeer – 1.78m (5ft 10ins)/91kgs (14st 5lbs)

Ospreys
LW: Luke Morgan – 1.75m (5ft 9ins)/81kgs (12st 11lbs)

Treviso
LW: Monty Ioane – 1.8m (5ft 11ins)/95kgs (14st 13lbs)

Zebre
RW: Charlie Walker – 1.8m (5ft 11ins)/85kgs (12st 4lbs)

TOP 14 WINGERS
Agen
LW: Valentin Saurs – 1.81m (5ft 11ins)/82kgs (12st 13lbs)
RW: Jamie-Jerry Taulagi – 1.8m (5ft 11ins)/90kgs (14st 2lbs)

La Rochelle
LW: Vincent Rattez – 1.81m (5ft 11ins)/77kgs (12st 2lbs)
RW: Jules Favre – 1.81m (5ft 11ins)/88kgs (13st 12lbs)
RW: Josua Tuisova – 1.8m (5ft 11ins)/108kgs (17st)

Montpellier
RW: Gabriel Ngandebe – 1.73m (5ft 8ins)/74kgs (11st 9lbs)

Stade Francais
LW: Lester Etien – 1.81m (5ft 11ins)/96kgs (15st 2lbs)

Toulon
LW: Gervais Cordin – 1.72m (5ft 8ins)/73kgs (11st 7lbs)

Toulouse
LW: Cheslin Kolbe – 1.71m (5ft 7ins)/74kgs (11st 9lbs)

theVersatile · 19-01-2021 1:35pm

At least from a Munster POV, that's complete BS. Our two academy back three players atm are Jonathan Wren and Sean French. Wren is probably 5'10. French on the other hand wasn't chosen because of his height, but because he was one of the best players in that age grade with a rediculous highlight reel.

In the sub academy, the next winger is Aaron Leahy who again isn't close to 6ft.

Also, we've just spent the last couple of pages discussing all of Leinsters small players yet now we're saying they aren't interested if they aren't tall enough? Paradoxical.

Would love to hear Connacht and Ulster POVs.

Paul Smeenus · 19-01-2021 1:51pm

Michael Lowry. That's how highly Ulster prize having bruisers in the back three.

realhorrorshow · 19-01-2021 2:05pm

theVersatile wrote: »

At least from a Munster POV, that's complete BS. Our two academy back three players atm are Jonathan Wren and Sean French. Wren is probably 5'10. French on the other hand wasn't chosen because of his height, but because he was one of the best players in that age grade with a rediculous highlight reel.

In the sub academy, the next winger is Aaron Leahy who again isn't close to 6ft.

Also, we've just spent the last couple of pages discussing all of Leinsters small players yet now we're saying they aren't interested if they aren't tall enough? Paradoxical.

Would love to hear Connacht and Ulster POVs.

At Connacht our home grown outside backs tend to be on the small side. Diarmuid Kilgallen is probably our most powerful since Robbie and he's not exactly a monster.

bayern · 19-01-2021 2:07pm

Only Ulster have big fast wings consistently coming through their system.

Locke_Lamora · 19-01-2021 2:43pm

bayern wrote: »

Only Ulster have big fast wings consistently coming through their system.

There are some good athletes there but McIlroy is playing ahead of the other back three academy players, and he's not as big or fast as any of them.

Baloucoune may be a very good athlete but he wouldn't have got nearly as much game time if his defending hadn't been so great from the start.

We may have good athletes coming through but it's clear we value skill more.

Paul Smeenus · 19-01-2021 2:46pm

Locke_Lamora wrote: »

There are some good athletes there but McIlroy is playing ahead of the other back three academy players, and he's not as big or fast as any of them.

Baloucoune may be a very good athlete but he wouldn't have got nearly as much game time if his defending hadn't been so great from the start.

We may have good athletes coming through but it's clear we value skill more.

Absolutely. Our third choice wing - Lyttle - is 5'9". Baloucoune and Stockdale are both comfortably north of six foot, but that's not why they are first choice.

bayern · 19-01-2021 2:54pm

just because they are big fast athletes doesn't mean they lack skill, in fact if they are in the academy or senior squad then a high base level of skill can be assumed I would have thought.

Locke_Lamora · 19-01-2021 2:57pm

bayern wrote: »

just because they are big fast athletes doesn't mean they lack skill, in fact if they are in the academy or senior squad then a high base level of skill can be assumed I would have thought.

You would think so but if you read the Ireland thread then you might get the impression that Stockdale has never been capable of catching a ball let alone jumping and catching at the same time.

FrannoFan · 20-01-2021 8:18am

bayern wrote: »

Ed Kelly, didn't make the leinster sub-academy.

LBN will struggle given his size, he has a lot of talent but it will be an uphill battle at pro level.. he has all the skills to be an excellent scrumhalf. But that would require far too much creative thinking to likely happen.

They did that exact thing with Foley! Center for Gerrard's and moved to 9.

bayern · 20-01-2021 8:48am

FrannoFan wrote: »

They did that exact thing with Foley! Center for Gerrard's and moved to 9.

Foley was a 9 before he was a centre.

FrannoFan · 20-01-2021 11:44am

bayern wrote: »

Foley was a 9 before he was a centre.

Was playing 12 in 6th year

bayern · 20-01-2021 11:46am

FrannoFan wrote: »

Was playing 12 in 6th year

played 9 in 2nd year, 4th year and 5th year.

played 9 for leinster underage teams.

he played 12 in 3rd year and 6th year to help Gerards have the strongest possible side.

bayern · 20-01-2021 11:47am

rumoured that Marcus Kiely has been cut by Leinster sub-academy.

expect he will end up with Connacht.

FellasFellas · 20-01-2021 7:29pm

bayern wrote: »

rumoured that Marcus Kiely has been cut by Leinster sub-academy.

expect he will end up with Connacht.

He turned down a lot of Dublin sides to play for Naas so maybe not the smartest move looking back. Not that a lot of rugby was played anyway but he probably thought mens rugby was a better move for him than 20's.

Lost Ormond · 20-01-2021 7:55pm

FellasFellas wrote: »

He turned down a lot of Dublin sides to play for Naas so maybe not the smartest move looking back. Not that a lot of rugby was played anyway but he probably thought mens rugby was a better move for him than 20's.

Would have called it a good move staying in Naas especially when playing 1B rugby which is a good step up from 20s.
Probably wouldnt be a factor though especially when so little rugby has been played.

FellasFellas · 21-01-2021 3:01am

Festive Life wrote: »

Would have called it a good move staying in Naas especially when playing 1B rugby which is a good step up from 20s.
Probably wouldnt be a factor though especially when so little rugby has been played.

Yeah tough to say this season. I agree that it would have been good for him as a player. I really rate him, think he could be an excellent player going forward for whoever snaps him up.

bayern · 21-01-2021 8:38am

Neil Francis on academy changes

The whole academy system is now being reviewed and it will be streamlined – significantly.

Peter Malone is no longer the director of the Munster Academy and Peter Smyth, the head of elite player development, is currently seconded to the Munster Academy. Nobody knows how long he'll be there or what the next step will be.

The plan currently being proposed is for a national academy based, say, in Athlone or even Blanchardstown. All the provincial academies would be discontinued and all the talent would be schooled in the national academy.

At the end of the season the talent would be farmed out.

If Munster need a prop or Ulster need a centre they are picked out of the national academy, irrespective of where they live or were brought up or whether they always dreamed of playing in blue, red etc.

Some of the provinces have had slim pickings from their academies in recent years – others (like Leinster) have been spectacularly successful in sustained excellence in the quality of players that they have produced.

Go through the Leinster team when it is announced on Friday and see how many in the squad are academy graduates.

This, in theory, is an efficient way of distributing talent throughout the four provinces – but it will do serious damage to Leinster who have already provided too much talent for everyone else.

Richie_Rich89 · 21-01-2021 8:58am

bayern wrote: »

Neil Francis on academy changes

Absolute lunacy.

Paul Smeenus · 21-01-2021 10:05am

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Absolute lunacy.

That is an appalling idea and will backfire spectacularly if it happens.

realhorrorshow · 21-01-2021 10:18am

Possibly one of the worst things you could do to Irish rugby, my God.

salmocab · 21-01-2021 10:22am

realhorrorshow wrote: »

Possibly one of the worst things you could do to Irish rugby, my God.

It sounds like they are trying to do some restructuring, this is one idea and it’s the one Francis is latching onto to make a story. I’d hold my annoyance for a while.

arsebiscuits1 · 21-01-2021 11:10am

At the moment this is barely even hearsay.

But the model of the academies will doom a national academy to fail.

As long as they depend on academy players being part time students and part time players this cannot work.

Do they expect every prospective pro rugby player to study in Dublin? If they're not studying in Dublin do they expect them to commute there to get to a 6am gym session before lectures?

I use Dublin as an example, obviously this issue is prevalent where ever you put it.

The potential workaround here is to put National academy centers in each of the provinces. But then you're left with essentially the same model as there is. There will still be the same provincial leanings the players would have etc.

You can put to bed the AIL as a product also if you centalise where all the academy players go also. No chance the AIL can be a competitive All Ireland competition if so many of the academy players are plying their trade in one location

Lost Ormond · 21-01-2021 12:03pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

At the moment this is barely even hearsay.

But the model of the academies will doom a national academy to fail.

As long as they depend on academy players being part time students and part time players this cannot work.

Do they expect every prospective pro rugby player to study in Dublin? If they're not studying in Dublin do they expect them to commute there to get to a 6am gym session before lectures?

I use Dublin as an example, obviously this issue is prevalent where ever you put it.

The potential workaround here is to put National academy centers in each of the provinces. But then you're left with essentially the same model as there is. There will still be the same provincial leanings the players would have etc.

You can put to bed the AIL as a product also if you centalise where all the academy players go also. No chance the AIL can be a competitive All Ireland competition if so many of the academy players are plying their trade in one location

We had a national academy at the very beginning 20 years ago.
Dont agree with going back to it. Would agree about a national academy with basically centres in each province/multiple locations as youre left with essentially whats in place now.
Dont see how it would affect AIL as a competitive product as all players wont be playing in one or even a few teams. They will still play for a wide range of teams
We've heard for years from some that UCD would be winning the AIL because of the amount of Leinster academy players in their squad and theyve made top 4 twice and in the only year they played in a semi final they were well beaten.

Bazzo · 21-01-2021 1:41pm

I reckon Franno is talking ****e (:eek:)

Quin_Dub · 21-01-2021 2:07pm

There is already a "National Academy" in the National Talent Squad where the best prospects that are not currently officially in an Academy are monitored and train together regularly.

Segregating the Academies from the rest of the provincial squads makes no sense at all. The benefits they get from training with the Snr Squads in each region would be lost, along with a whole host of other impacts.

Having said that , I think that there are opportunities to improve the Academy selection process to ensure that we are maximising the resources.

A bit of a "College Draft" thing.

All of the regional talent managers submit their list of potential candidates to a central panel where they get ranked by potential and position.

Then all the Provinces get to make an offer for a player they want and the player can choose the one they prefer if they have more than 1 offer.

Lost Ormond · 21-01-2021 2:16pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

There is already a "National Academy" in the National Talent Squad where the best prospects that are not currently officially in an Academy are monitored and train together regularly.

Segregating the Academies from the rest of the provincial squads makes no sense at all. The benefits they get from training with the Snr Squads in each region would be lost, along with a whole host of other impacts.

Having said that , I think that there are opportunities to improve the Academy selection process to ensure that we are maximising the resources.

A bit of a "College Draft" thing.

All of the regional talent managers submit their list of potential candidates to a central panel where they get ranked by potential and position.

Then all the Provinces get to make an offer for a player they want and the player can choose the one they prefer if they have more than 1 offer.

The national talent squad isnt an academy though. More sub academy, players who may likely join the pro game in years to come.
Totally agree about losing the every day to day interaction with senior squads would be a major negative of this but all academy players together learning from each other could be a real game changer.

Quin_Dub · 21-01-2021 2:23pm

Festive Life wrote: »

The national talent squad isnt an academy though. More sub academy, players who may likely join the pro game in years to come.
Totally agree about losing the every day to day interaction with senior squads would be a major negative of this but all academy players together learning from each other could be a real game changer.

I have no issue with them expanding the NTS concept and bringing all the Academy players together on a regular basis to improve standards etc.

Definite benefits there without question.

But - Monday to Friday, week to week they need to be in the Province training with their potential future teammates.

Hands Like Flippers · 21-01-2021 3:56pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I have no issue with them expanding the NTS concept and bringing all the Academy players together on a regular basis to improve standards etc.

Definite benefits there without question.

But - Monday to Friday, week to week they need to be in the Province training with their potential future teammates.

Plus who would pay the cost of accomodation etc? An Academy contract is not exactly huge, never mind the position of sub-academy players.

Whichever province it was 'centralised' in would benefit, even if it were only by virtue of people's homes to Blanchardstown or wherever.

Lucas44 · 21-01-2021 4:12pm

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

Plus who would pay the cost of accomodation etc? An Academy contract is not exactly huge, never mind the position of sub-academy players.

Whichever province it was 'centralised' in would benefit, even if it were only by virtue of people's homes to Blanchardstown or wherever.

The same people that pay their accommodation right now? Majority of academy players are in college, parents are paying for college accommodation and some clubs will subsidise some their costs if they want the players to sign after school. It’s not like their living in dublin/belfast/Galway/limerick for free at the moment . Anyway Don’t agree with the idea of a centralised academy

Lost Ormond · 21-01-2021 4:49pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I have no issue with them expanding the NTS concept and bringing all the Academy players together on a regular basis to improve standards etc.

Definite benefits there without question.

But - Monday to Friday, week to week they need to be in the Province training with their potential future teammates.

All the academies players and coaches should be coming together on regular/occasional basis anyway. Leinster coaches working with Munster players, Connacht coaches with Leinster. Units all working together against each other etc all to improve each other.
A national academy isnt needed. We tried it. A decentralised set up works better but some more integration in some areas would be nice.

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

Plus who would pay the cost of accomodation etc? An Academy contract is not exactly huge, never mind the position of sub-academy players.

Whichever province it was 'centralised' in would benefit, even if it were only by virtue of people's homes to Blanchardstown or wherever.

Same People who do now? Parents, AIL clubs often assist players with accommodation.

Hands Like Flippers · 21-01-2021 5:24pm

Lucas44 wrote: »

The same people that pay their accommodation right now? Majority of academy players are in college, parents are paying for college accommodation and some clubs will subsidise some their costs if they want the players to sign after school. It’s not like their living in dublin/belfast/Galway/limerick for free at the moment . Anyway Don’t agree with the idea of a centralised academy

Mmm, plenty of them can stay at home and travel wden its local.

Hands Like Flippers · 21-01-2021 5:26pm

Festive Life wrote: »

All the academies players and coaches should be coming together on regular/occasional basis anyway. Leinster coaches working with Munster players, Connacht coaches with Leinster. Units all working together against each other etc all to improve each other.
A national academy isnt needed. We tried it. A decentralised set up works better but some more integration in some areas would be nice.

Same People who do now? Parents, AIL clubs often assist players with accommodation.

AIL club in Ulster are hardly going to be keen to pay accommodation in Dublin for example.

Paul Smeenus · 21-01-2021 5:40pm

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

AIL club in Ulster are hardly going to be keen to pay accommodation in Dublin for example.

If the Grand Central Academy itself couldn't pay for it, a sport that should and needs to widen its appeal is basically saying that if you can't personally afford to relocate, you're out of the running.

Dubinusa · 21-01-2021 6:00pm

Wouldn't it be more productive to have ve a clubs academy or academies?

Lost Ormond · 21-01-2021 6:01pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

Wouldn't it be more productive to have ve a clubs academy or academies?

What do you mean by club academy?

Lucas44 · 21-01-2021 9:07pm

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

AIL club in Ulster are hardly going to be keen to pay accommodation in Dublin for example.

Ail clubs with academy players only see them on a Thursday night for team run & Saturdays for the match. Doesn’t matter if there 2km down the road or 100km. As per the previous point, I’d be willing to bet 85+% of academy players do not live at home, maybe higher

Hands Like Flippers · 21-01-2021 11:01pm

Lucas44 wrote: »

Ail clubs with academy players only see them on a Thursday night for team run & Saturdays for the match. Doesn’t matter if there 2km down the road or 100km. As per the previous point, I’d be willing to bet 85+% of academy players do not live at home, maybe higher

Perhaps you are right, but driving from Belfast to Banbridge or Rainey and back on a Thursday pm is a different proposition from Dublin. However if it is 'centralised' in Dublin it will be fine for the Leinster guys I suppose.

FrannoFan · 21-01-2021 11:26pm

Lucas44 wrote: »

Ail clubs with academy players only see them on a Thursday night for team run & Saturdays for the match. Doesn’t matter if there 2km down the road or 100km. As per the previous point, I’d be willing to bet 85+% of academy players do not live at home, maybe higher

I'd say a lot of Leinster academy lads live at home.

Ringrose is still living at home!

Expensive place to rent and on buttons.

The Academies

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