Work rant. Hazing management style

ILoveYourVibes · 25-06-2019 2:20am #1

I am working right now in the art dept of a much larger company. Its a tiny component of what they do.

There is one manager who leads up 3 departments inc mine ...she publicly hazes people by this i mean praise or criticism mean nothing. There is no substance to it. It's literally just her management style.

Its really stupid for anything creative because out work is less results driven and evaluation or criticism etc is the only way really to know how well or bad we're doing.

We were told the art dept was going to start doing more web design. And she told us everyone had to learn python. I tried telling her front end devlopment don't need python and there is no full stack person in our dept. I told her there is a reason front end don't use python its very difficult and its on another level of difficulty to HTML which is what web designers use. She does however have back end developers and full stack people in her enginering people. All she needs to do is put us all in the same room together for the time of the project.

The art department is literally graphic designers with web design skills. Like our job description is graphic designer with web design skills.

Not even people with a focus on web design who are just full blown web designers have to learn python. I think it's mental.

And when she asked a full stack developer he said ' they can learn if they want...but like i don't think that's a great idea ' It's going to be REALLY hard for these people to master python.

I have been asking other graphic and web designers if they have ever had to learn it. None of them said yes. And i know these type of people would just find that hard. It's a different type of intelligence. They all know HTML or Java but python is on a another level. I don't think she realizes the difference between them. I think she thinks if you can learn HTML then surely you have the skill to learn python. She doesn't GET that is why you have front end and back end developers and to ACTUALLY get someone who can do both is like ..awesome...full stack people are like diamonds. GO YOU FULL STACK PEOPLE!

She just is not prepared for the ****load of mistakes that is going to come out of this art department if she makes people learn python. 2 of them have zero web design experience only graphic design. She thinks because graphic designers learn java they can learn python. I mean it's obviously ALL just coding. grids,coordinates,color palettes,etc. web designers and graphic designers BOTH have to learn but don't overlap on everything ...there is a lot of divergent job description skills

I am not on the phones but the people who are have to leave a button when they go to the bathroom with a card that has the time they left their desk written on it and if they are gone more than 7 mins past that time they have to make it up from their lunch or break.

We had to make up the cards for her ...each card has 7 lines with 'Time Left' at the top of the column so 'They will only need one card a week'. She thinks people working in the call center should only need the loo once a day. How they came up with 7 mins i don't know.

I half think she can't be serious about the python thing and it's just her hazing nonsense. If she gets someone to write a few scripts that is all we need and we can just use them over and over. We usually just use apps for any web design and free scripts for coding graphics.

Someone told me a story of a time before I was there. She asked the art department to print off a fake winning scratch card and she gave it to a member of staff who still works there. The company does them as promotional tools. This guy though he had won a prize etc. And then it's all a big joke. Can you imagine?

The funny thing is i don't actually get the impression this is personal or that she is personally unaware of the effect she has on people. I don't get the impression she gets off on it. Or that she is a bad person.

I think this is an ACTUAL management style.

I feel like the python thing is part of it ..it's like an impossible task she knows people will fail...or maybe she doesn't ...

I also can't be sure i think though someone or a group have reported her to HR. I can't be sure though.

How do you cope if someone uses hazing in the workplace? Or gives you tasks you are going to fail?

Her opinions are not substance based. They don't mean anything. Her bulling etc doesn't mean something. Its just a management style . It's infuriating!

Like if your boss told you to go look for a tool that didn't exit.

Also the effect it's having is ..people don't trust her opinions ..or i don't ..and people are starting to involve her less and less in their work she is making herself irrelevant.

I dont know how to deal.

Does someone more experienced have any idea?

I know it is an actual management style though. Like supposedly to build solidarity and have other effects...

Sorry for the length of the post.

Tokyo · 25-06-2019 2:36am

I don't think 'hazing' means what you think it means. Poor or uninformed management decision maybe, depending on the contract you signed.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I also can't be sure i think though someone or a group have reported her to HR. I can't be sure though.

So go to HR yourself. Stop depending on others to maybe/possibly do it on your behalf. Only they can give you advice on how to move forward, IMO.

Deub · 25-06-2019 2:53am

Someone told me one day: Never refuse a training.
It may seem an useless one right now but could be what differentiate you from other candidates when applying for a new job.

ILoveYourVibes · 25-06-2019 3:11am

mike_ie wrote: »

I don't think 'hazing' means what you think it means. Poor or uninformed management decision maybe, depending on the contract you signed.

So go to HR yourself. Stop depending on others to maybe/possibly do it on your behalf. Only they can give you advice on how to move forward, IMO.

Thanks for your reply.

I am probably not expressing my thoughts in a structured way here. And it is partly just a venting rant etc.

But she has used the word hazing herself to describe certain management styles. Not when referring to herself though. But to general styles. She didn't use it in a negative way or as if it was a bad thing.

I know it's a part of American corporate management culture a lot. It's supposed to be team building and introduce conformity and group affiliation.

She does publicly haze people. Making them clean their desks. Practical jokes etc.

She will hang around one partic person for a while asking them to explain what they are doing in minutiae.

My resume says i have web design skills etc and i can manage python. I am ok ..but i know i mean I KNOW others in the office have zero web design skills on there resume it's not what they are there for. Its not gonna happen. I mean I can manage python but even me and the other web design person were using free scripts a lot of the time.

But there ARE people there whose job is to JUST do thus back end dev stuff.

If it's challenged etc i think she will just go ok....and think of another thing.

She takes no honest interest in the actual work.

I could say something to HR. But for all i know HR instated these practices. I dunno.

And yeah you are right i do tend to depend on others to stand up for me. But there is not an easy way to report to hr. It's difficult to say what 'code of conduct ' she is violating. And I can't do it anon.

I don't get the impression there are enough checks and balances between HR and other depts. The policy decisions seem driven another way.

I know HR does report to finance for example they don't report at the executive level in this company. That's not right.

Like the reason people have to be on the phones all the time is because they haven't hired enough people in the first place. Those practices woudn't have happened if HR reported at the exec level table ...well would be less likely.

That's no excuse for me not trying though I know. But that is just the way it is.

HR policy is often driven towards accomplishing finance goals

Good staff are not praised ..bad ones are not reprimanded its not consistent

Also it goes on your personal employment record if you take a complaint to hr etc ...along with evaluation reports ...

I honestly do not trust HR.

ILoveYourVibes · 25-06-2019 3:15am

Finance by the way are the ones who evaluate what your payroll should be for your dept and your salary for each job and raises etc.....and considering hr report to them and not at the exec level..i don't know if i am like ...so happy to report or bring my name up with hr.

Kind of don't want it on my file etc.

And if someone else is doing etc and it moderates or changes her behavior cool let them do it.

But managing her etc or tips on how to deal etc

ILoveYourVibes · 25-06-2019 3:32am

Deub wrote: »

Someone told me one day: Never refuse a training.
It may seem an useless one right now but could be what differentiate you from other candidates when applying for a new job.

Thanks for replying.

I have certification in python i got it from cct in dublin. Its rusty though. But that is part of what is making this frustrating.

Graphic design is NOT web design ...web design is front end not back end stuff.

And i know how different and difficult it is to make that leap from graphic design to back end development.

Its not going to be efficient.

I take your point though.

In that case i hope she realizes the company will have to send people to do a dip and they pay for it instead thinking they can just read up on it.
The course I did was only 15 weeks evenings so its doable. It was expensive though.

I'm having an 'I hate my job thus i hate my life moment /year'.

Big Bag of Chips · 25-06-2019 7:42am

ILoveYourVibes, your posts are very difficult to read. They are repetitive and a lot of unnecessary detail. Reading them I am imagining you hyperventilating as you type.

My 12 year old goes to a coding club and he learns Python.

You seem to think or suspect a lot without any substance. You 'think' someone went to HR? Someone else going to HR will be to discuss their issue with her as a manager. If you have an issue you'll need to address it yourself.

There are all types of personalities in the work place. Being a manager doesn't automatically mean that the person will be good at the job! It just means they were good at the interview. Or that their past work impressed management and they had something that management wants.

If you don't want to tackle her or her management style then you keep the head down and do the work. If she sends people off on unnecessary expensive training she won't be long about being pulled up on it. Maybe it was suggested to her by higher up that you all get python training.

You probably are just having a rant, but unless you are going to address the issues with her, your only option is to let her carry on, and just accept that she is the way she is. As a group you could possibly come together to offer alternative suggestions. There might be strength in numbers, but otherwise, just get on with the day's work and be glad to go home everyday.

ILoveYourVibes · 25-06-2019 8:19am

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

ILoveYourVibes, your posts are very difficult to read. They are repetitive and a lot of unnecessary detail. Reading them I am imagining you hyperventilating as you type.

My 12 year old goes to a coding club and he learns Python.

You seem to think or suspect a lot without any substance. You 'think' someone went to HR? Someone else going to HR will be to discuss their issue with her as a manager. If you have an issue you'll need to address it yourself.

There are all types of personalities in the work place. Being a manager doesn't automatically mean that the person will be good at the job! It just means they were good at the interview. Or that their past work impressed management and they had something that management wants.

If you don't want to tackle her or her management style then you keep the head down and do the work. If she sends people off on unnecessary expensive training she won't be long about being pulled up on it. Maybe it was suggested to her by higher up that you all get python training.

You probably are just having a rant, but unless you are going to address the issues with her, your only option is to let her carry on, and just accept that she is the way she is. As a group you could possibly come together to offer alternative suggestions. There might be strength in numbers, but otherwise, just get on with the day's work and be glad to go home everyday.

Thank you for your reply. Chips

Yeah My posts are a little batty sorry about that.

I am pretty sure someone went to HR. I have my reasons to think this. Firstly because of who has been called to HR to be spoken to recently.

They haven't pulled her into a meeting but i am pretty sure they will in a short time. But they have pulled in people connected or who have seen things she has done.

I am even pretty sure i know who reported her at this stage.

She has no intention of sending people to training imo.

It's all smoke.

By the way I don't think she is like this outside of work. I don't think it's her natural personality. That's just intuition.

You are going to just have to trust its as bad as I say.

HR (higher up) didn't decide this its not their style or structure. This is her style . The way our development officer does things is very different. Also he would just SPEAK to us. It wouldn't come through her.

Its why i kind of know its smoke. She wouldn't really be the one to decide it or implement it.

She could suggest it TO him. But its not up to her. But as i said i don't think she is ...being genuine.

Python might seem easy but for a group of creatives hired for creativity etc and with their skill and training having gone in that direction it's not. And its probably not even what they want to be doing to be good at their job. That might seem divaish but it's not ...the work is going to suffer.

I would prefer to tackle her person to person. If anyone has any idea on how to approach her directly to her face ..not rude. But directly i would be interested.

beauf · 25-06-2019 8:29am

I think both your manger and the OP don't really know the difference between any of these web development roles are.

What graphic designers think of as web design everyone else just calls graphic design.

When people use the terms web design and front end terms they mainly to refer programming roles these days. Especially since most programmers think they are graphic designers the role of the true graphic designer in web development work is shrinking to just graphics. There is also UX work but that is becoming quite specialized and moving away from graphic design.

What you need to do is go look at the jobs looking for people in these roles and see what skillsets they require. Then look at the skill set your existing staff have.

But I guess the question is how viable for the project to have someone spend two years learning how to code ( web development) rather than bringing in someone with those skills already.

The other issue is that not everyone has the aptitude for coding. As it's mainly right side of the brain stuff and design and graphics is left side. Some people can do both but most can't. At least not well.

Lackadaisical · 25-06-2019 8:29am

OP, unfortunately I'm struggling to follow your post but the one thing that shocks me is a manager using the term "hazing".

Any manager using the term would want to be a extremely careful. It could be very easily construed as bullying.

It's not a term or a concept that should be in any organisation, as it basically means the use of humiliation and violence in the context of American college fraternity initiation ceremonies.

Even using a term like that creates a toxic culture within an organisation.

If you feel you're being bullied, you should raise it with HR.

beauf · 25-06-2019 8:40am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

...

Its really stupid for anything creative because out work is less results driven and evaluation or criticism etc is the only way really to know how well or bad we're doing.

....

I think both your manger and you are wrong. You can do user acceptance testing and sample surveys with your users and target market to see what works and what doesn't. This removes subjective opinion from the process.

You can put numbers on anything be it design or management techniques to evaluate them.

ILoveYourVibes · 25-06-2019 8:43am

Lackadaisical wrote: »

OP, unfortunately I'm struggling to follow your post but the one thing that shocks me is a manager using the term "hazing".

Any manager using the term would want to be a extremely careful. It could be very easily construed as bullying.

It's not a term or a concept that should be in any organisation, as it basically means the use of humiliation and violence in the context of American college fraternity initiation ceremonies.

Even using a term like that creates a toxic culture within an organisation.

If you feel you're being bullied, you should raise it with HR.

I thought it was weird too she has done it a few times. She said something like hazing being used as an organization tool to build group conformity.

'Hazing as a tool to change a group's corporate culture' or something.

She definitely wasn't using it in a negative light.

The thing is the term bullying would imply it's something personal. And i really don't think it is.

I really think she feels it's a management style. It's not really to do with the people it happens to etc.

beauf · 25-06-2019 8:43am

Lackadaisical wrote: »

OP, unfortunately I'm struggling to follow your post but the one thing that shocks me is a manager using the term "hazing".

Any manager using the term would want to be a extremely careful. It could be very easily construed as bullying.

It's not a term or a concept that should be in any organisation, as it basically means the use of humiliation and violence in the context of American college fraternity initiation ceremonies.

Even using a term like that creates a toxic culture within an organisation.

If you feel you're being bullied, you should raise it with HR.

It's not hazing the OP is confused. it's fake praise or manipulation.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/evolution-the-self/201401/praise-manipulation-6-reasons-question-compliments%3famp

The manager obviously thinking it's the same as motivation and genuine praise.

It's not results driven.

beauf · 25-06-2019 8:47am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

...
I would prefer to tackle her person to person. If anyone has any idea on how to approach her directly to her face ..not rude. But directly i would be interested.

Don't. Neither you or her know how to handle that situation.

Look at job specs. Skillsets. Put metrics on the work the team does.

You really need to hire someone with experience of web development to do the web development.

ILoveYourVibes · 25-06-2019 8:52am

beauf wrote: »

I think both your manger and you are wrong. You can do user acceptance testing and sample surveys with your users and target market to see what works and what doesn't. This removes subjective opinion from the process.

You can put numbers on anything be it design or management techniques to evaluate them.

Yes I agree, but what if she makes up the numbers and makes it so they have no relation to how customers feel about it. Because that is what she is doing.

It's like she says you have to have a certain number of F's in the group results regardless of how the group performs. And the A's come when you have under preformed.

It really is literally like the A and the F don't actually matter. And my work hasn't gotten F's personally.

Apologies for the poor analogy.

But if you understand it's because we know that the a and the f mean nothing it's what makes us insecure about our works REAL ability.

I have actually just kept my head down.

I agree though. I and my boss could be both wrong.

25-06-2019 8:55am

Developer here.

Sounds like your manager is completely clueless and a bully. Why would you get web designers to learn python? If they had coding ability they would have learned python and 20 other languages themselves ages ago.

People who have both artistic and technical ability in the top 10% are pretty rare - that's why Leonardo da Vinci was a genius.

Even if you manage to learn python the code you write will be shocking and buggy - it takes years to properly learn to code, even for a developer.

The 12 year old learning python is a red herring - either he's just mucking about with the basics or he's one of these child prodigies who eats sleeps and dreams coding. People think coding is like learning to ride a bike, anyone can do it to a high level but that just isn't true. Its more like football or singing, or art for that matter.

ILoveYourVibes · 25-06-2019 8:56am

beauf wrote: »

Don't. Neither you or her know how to handle that situation.

Look at job specs. Skillsets. Put metrics on the work the team does.

You really need to hire someone with experience of web development to do the web development.

There are people there who do that already..but they do mostly network admin. I just told her just put us and them in the same room for whatever project you want. It will be easier.

I think I need to learn how to handle that situation though. And if she can't handle it ...help her through it in a non threatening way.

25-06-2019 9:00am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

There are people there who do that already..but they do mostly network admin. I just told her just put us and them in the same room for whatever project you want. It will be easier.

I think I need to learn how to handle that situation though. And if she can't handle it ...help her through it in a non threatening way.

Why are programmers doing mostly network admin? They can't be very good. They are 2 COMPLETELY different jobs. If it was a small company with only 10 people total it might be understandable but you are talking teams of people.

What sort of messed up company do you work for?

ILoveYourVibes · 25-06-2019 9:01am

Deleted User wrote: »

Developer here.

Sounds like your manager is completely clueless and a bully. Why would you get web designers to learn python? If they had coding ability they would have learned python and 20 other languages themselves ages ago.

People who are both artistic and technical ability in the top 10% are pretty rare - that's why Leonardo da Vinci was a genius.

Even if you manage to learn python the code you write will be shocking and buggy - it takes years to properly learn to code, even for a developer.

I KNOW that's EXACTLY what I think! All the coding guys think she is nuts!

One of the designers used to be an art teacher! You are not going to get her to learn how to code at her age! She is good at what she does but it's in another world.

She thinks because I did a course in python to help me use free scripts etc that i can actually code IN python. She doesn't get why i can't.

I think she should just get the developer guys we have and the artsy types in the same room for a few days to do whatever she wants.

beauf · 25-06-2019 9:04am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Yes I agree, but what if she makes up the numbers and makes it so they have no relation to how customers feel about it. Because that is what she is doing. . .

You have a habit of over thinking this. So no offence I don't don't think you will be the person to sort this out. But since you asked, maybe you are..

Why can't YOU draw up a table in Excel with the skill sets required and average years of experience looked for in job ads.

But at the end of the day if someone won't listen they won't listen. Nothing you say will make any difference. In that situation to walk away from the problem. But be professional about it.

beauf · 25-06-2019 9:08am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

...I think she should just get the developer guys we have and the artsy types in the same room for a few days to do whatever she wants.

Definitely.

beauf · 25-06-2019 9:10am

I didn't realise you had developers it was too confusing..

ILoveYourVibes · 25-06-2019 9:14am

beauf wrote: »

You have a habit of over thinking this. So no offence I don't don't think you will be the person to sort this out. But since you asked, maybe you are..

Why can't YOU draw up a table in Excel with the skill sets required and average years of experience looked for in job ads.

But at the end of the day if someone won't listen they won't listen. Nothing you say will make any difference. In that situation to walk away from the problem. But be professional about it.

I know what I think i will do. I will ask her and our development officer to meet with me about it. I will do what you say etc. And see what training she really thinks is realistic. I won't do it on my own.

Maybe I will talk about building unity and changing corp culture in other more positive ways with him too not to her but just in front of her.

ILoveYourVibes · 25-06-2019 9:15am

beauf wrote: »

I didn't realise you had developers it was too confusing..

That's ok. I tend to attack the post like a canvas ..it gets real expressive and messy in here!

beauf · 25-06-2019 9:19am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I know what I think i will do. I will ask her and our development officer to meet with me about it. I will do what you say etc. And see what training she really thinks is realistic. I won't do it on my own.

Maybe I will talk about building unity and changing corp culture in other more positive ways with him too not to her but just in front of her.

I see you've found your corporate hat....

Something like that exactly...

beauf · 25-06-2019 9:21am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

That's ok. I tend to attack the post like a canvas ..it gets real expressive and messy in here!

I moved from graphics to IT/development I know exactly what you mean.

Sardonicat · 25-06-2019 9:23am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I know what I think i will do. I will ask her and our development officer to meet with me about it. I will do what you say etc. And see what training she really thinks is realistic. I won't do it on my own.

Maybe I will talk about building unity and changing corp culture in other more positive ways with him too not to her but just in front of her.

The only thing this will achieve is a target on your back.

Tokyo · 25-06-2019 9:30am

Mod:

As this has developed into a specific work-related issue, moving to Work & Jobs > Work Problems. Please note that their charter now applies.

ILoveYourVibes · 25-06-2019 9:33am

mike_ie wrote: »

Mod:

As this has developed into a specific work-related issue, moving to Work & Jobs > Work Problems. Please note that their charter now applies.

I was actually looking for that forum when i posted it! Thanks!

I thought this was for personal finances! :P

ILoveYourVibes · 25-06-2019 9:39am

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are programmers doing mostly network admin? They can't be very good. They are 2 COMPLETELY different jobs. If it was a small company with only 10 people total it might be understandable but you are talking teams of people.

What sort of messed up company do you work for?

I assume they have the other skill set.

They didn't replace 2 people in IT that left or they haven't yet . And one is on extended sick leave he will be back soon though but only starting back part time.

I assume it's why she feels they are not free to work with us or something.

I think it's like you put down something in your cv you have a little experience of or know a little about and they think that you can do that job.

All i know is i am not going to be able to do what she is asking if she's serious!

Yurt2 · 25-06-2019 9:59am

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

My 12 year old goes to a coding club and he learns Python.
.

Your kid also likely learns French or German in school, he won't be interpreting or translating legal documents any time soon though.

Work rant. Hazing management style

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