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Airtight wall chases

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Comments

  • #102
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    Just off the phone with my airtight specialist and he said unless you're going for passive there's really no point in applying the pink stuff to the wall chases. He said to apply it around the box areas and leave it at that and with the wall plaster on top of the conduit the air leakage is minimal and really not worth the effort. I've used 6 inch blocks on my ground floor which should help also.


  • #103
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    BarneyMc wrote: »
    That's what I thought. By the way if the plaster is going to crack if placed on the pink stuff then what's to stop it cracking when placed over the conduit?

    As far as I know, the airtight pink stuff is intended as a base coat before application of final skim coat. It replaces sand/cement. If it caused cracks it wouldn't be much of a base coat.


  • #104
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    I've a can of SBR arriving today so will give the chases a coat using this. My airtightness guy said it was not worth the effort applying the pink stuff to them as he has seen little or no real air leakage there. Anyway, the SBR should not take long to apply so will go ahead with that for peace of mind.

    Regarding the boxes, I got a bit extra taken out of the wall to apply the pink stuff (my initial idea) but maybe I should just use the SBR (2 coats like Hex did) for the boxes also? Or should I just use the pink stuff for the boxes (have 2 bags of the stuff!!!).


  • #105
    hexosan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭hexosan


    The SBR won't fill up the boxes it's only the thickness of a coat of paint. How much extra in mm did you chase out.


  • #106
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    BarneyMc wrote: »
    I've a can of SBR arriving today so will give the chases a coat using this. My airtightness guy said it was not worth the effort applying the pink stuff to them as he has seen little or no real air leakage there. Anyway, the SBR should not take long to apply so will go ahead with that for peace of mind.

    Regarding the boxes, I got a bit extra taken out of the wall to apply the pink stuff (my initial idea) but maybe I should just use the SBR (2 coats like Hex did) for the boxes also? Or should I just use the pink stuff for the boxes (have 2 bags of the stuff!!!).

    If you're concerned about the cut outs for the boxes being too deep if you DON'T use the pink stuff, you can always just install deeper boxes. For switches, if you ever decided to replace conventional ones with wireless in future, you might accidentally have the room for them.
    I'm assuming wireless ones will be deeper than standard wired but could be wrong.


  • #107
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    hexosan wrote: »
    The SBR won't fill up the boxes it's only the thickness of a coat of paint. How much extra in mm did you chase out.

    Not sure how much but now that I think about it the pink stuff might just be the best to use in the boxes. The surface in the boxes is VERY rough so it might be just a good idea to apply a skim of the pink to help level things out.


  • #108
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    I've seen some poster talk about coating behind boxes and chases close to external walls. Also around the edges of walls where the door frames go on. Is this really taking it too far?


  • #109
    hexosan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭hexosan


    I can't remember who told me to do the door frames but if your using the SBR it'll only take a few mins to coat the frame


  • #110
    893bet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭893bet


    BarneyMc wrote: »
    I've seen some poster talk about coating behind boxes and chases close to external walls. Also around the edges of walls where the door frames go on. Is this really taking it too far?

    Definately but.....if you have some done it would be a pity to skip those while your at it. I think I read any chases within 1 metre of an external wall should be done.

    I took my chances and did none! Hope I don't live to regret it!


  • #111
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    Also tops of internal walls? :eek:


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  • #112
    hexosan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭hexosan


    Tops of internal walls ??????


  • #113
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    hexosan wrote: »
    Tops of internal walls ??????

    On the first floor, for instance, the tops of my inside walls will sit below the membrane. I assume the plasterers will not be plastering the top surface of these walls. Is this not the same then as the block surface showing at door frames?


  • #114
    hexosan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭hexosan


    BarneyMc wrote: »
    On the first floor, for instance, the tops of my inside walls will sit below the membrane. I assume the plasterers will not be plastering the top surface of these walls. Is this not the same then as the block surface showing at door frames?

    Ok. Not an issue for me as my airtight layer is in the attic.


  • #115
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    hexosan wrote: »
    Ok. Not an issue for me as my airtight layer is in the attic.

    But your door frames, wall chases etc. are all inside this airtight line and are still treated.
    Barney is saying that if air can come in through the vertical face of blocks 1m from external walls, it stands to reason that air can come in also on top of walls all around the house.

    Barney, I thought of this as I was working my way around external walls, and threw some of the pink stuff on top....but only when I had a bit left over on the end of the trowel. There's OCD and then there's daft as a brush.


  • #116
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    rampantbunny wrote: »
    But your door frames, wall chases etc. are all inside this airtight line and are still treated.
    Barney is saying that if air can come in through the vertical face of blocks 1m from external walls, it stands to reason that air can come in also on top of walls all around the house.

    Barney, I thought of this as I was working my way around external walls, and threw some of the pink stuff on top....but only when I had a bit left over on the end of the trowel. There's OCD and then there's daft as a brush.

    Totally agree. I dusted off about a meter (the magic meter) of some of these walls today but I will only put something on them if I've the time. I'll also see if I'm in the humour to do the door frames. Some are really far from outside walls so won't be doing them.

    I got a lot of my SBR applied to the chases today. Although easy, it took longer than I thought but maybe I was a bit particular. I left out the boxes as I'm not sure if I've enough depth to apply the pink stuff or just continue with the SBR. I'll try and get all finished next week - time is the issue!


  • #117
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    Some visuals from today's SBR action.


  • #118
    hexosan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭hexosan


    So barney after using it do you think it'll do the job


  • #119
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    hexosan wrote: »
    So barney after using it do you think it'll do the job

    Yes sir, I certianly do. My airtight engineer said chases did not contribute any significant airtightness problems. He said to do the boxes and that would be fine. Using the SBR in the chases is easy so I'm glad to go ahead with this anyway.

    For anyone thinking of going down the 'pink stuff' route with the chases - good luck. I'd say you'll be there til Christmas! I might be using it in the box areas (have to see if there's enough depth left) but if not then the SBR will do the trick.


  • #120
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    BarneyMc wrote: »
    Yes sir, I certianly do. My airtight engineer said chases did not contribute any significant airtightness problems. He said to do the boxes and that would be fine. Using the SBR in the chases is easy so I'm glad to go ahead with this anyway.

    For anyone thinking of going down the 'pink stuff' route with the chases - good luck. I'd say you'll be there til Christmas! I might be using it in the box areas (have to see if there's enough depth left) but if not then the SBR will do the trick.

    For anyone reading this in the future...

    Pink stuff - advantages:
    Designed to be airtight. Sense of comfort when you can completely cover the conduit.
    IMO easy to apply if you have the right tools (needs to be mixed like skim coat with paddle, and trowel is required to apply)

    Pink stuff - disadvantages:
    Chases must be wide enough and deep enough to allow 6mm of product.
    ...and you need the right tools.


    Would I use the pink stuff again - no, unless the chases could be made wider using standard chasing tool.


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  • #121
    PROJECT K
    Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭PROJECT K


    Hi Barney/Hexosan, interesting discussion! I know its all relative but how much SBR did you use - did you find 5L enough for a typical two storey house, i will probably go overboard (as usual!) and paint all the door frames and any questionable areas...will be interesting to hear how the airtightness test goes lads! Can you PM the make of SBR you used and where you got it? I have used SBR products before (not in this particular application) but i think it is important to apply another wet coat directly before final plastering over...?
    Thanks
    PK


  • #122
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    5L will certainly be enough for my 2 storey. I'm taking a sensible approach and as well as doing external wall chases I'm only doing an odd chase that's close to external walls plus an odd doorframe that's close to external walls. I probably won't do the side of the doorframe that's on the inner side if you know what I mean. I'll use the pink stuff where I can also as it's quick and easy to apply and I've more than enough!

    I'm not sure why you would want a wet coat before final plastering?

    I'll PM you the SBR details.


  • #123
    PROJECT K
    Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭PROJECT K


    BarneyMc wrote: »
    I'm not sure why you would want a wet coat before final plastering?.

    SBR is a styrene butyl rubber and is designed to offer water resistance (tanking etc) so may impact final plastering, depends on mixture ratios but i guess with a high cement content in your concoction it should be ok...:)
    Also its only used within the chase so should be ok, might need to be careful covering too much of the wall with it...


  • #124
    893bet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭893bet


    rampantbunny wrote: »
    Designed to be airtight. Sense of comfort when you can completely cover the conduit.

    But you are not meant to cover the conduit?

    The point is to cover the the chase behind the conduit. The conduit is then covered as normally using sand and cement I think!


  • #125
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    893bet wrote: »
    But you are not meant to cover the conduit?

    The point is to cover the the chase behind the conduit. The conduit is then covered as normally using sand and cement I think!

    Meant??

    Who is making up the rules here...afaik no one has any of these details documented so its up to you do decide how you should apply.
    I covered the conduit and can't see the problem with this approach.

    The product is marketed for use as an airtight base coat before application of final skim. It shouldn't matter if it is behind the conduit, in the conduit, in front of the conduit...


  • #126
    893bet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭893bet


    rampantbunny wrote: »
    Meant??

    Who is making up the rules here...afaik no one has any of these details documented so its up to you do decide how you should apply.
    I covered the conduit and can't see the problem with this approach.

    The product is marketed for use as an airtight base coat before application of final skim. It shouldn't matter if it is behind the conduit, in the conduit, in front of the conduit...

    My point is there is no advantage to covering the conduit is all. As sand and cement is airtight regardless. The air leakage path is from the socket box up up along the chase.


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  • #127
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    893bet wrote: »
    My point is there is no advantage to covering the conduit is all. As sand and cement is airtight regardless. The air leakage path is from the socket box up up along the chase.

    I understand that 893..fair point.
    To say that 'you are not meant to' though, implies that you should not cover it.


  • #128
    PROJECT K
    Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭PROJECT K


    came across this (http://www.blowerproofliquid.com/en/solutions-products/floor-wall-connections) as part of my research into the OT - its a paint on air tight polymerised paste that doesnt have to be mixed. Is this the answer we have been looking for?!!! They are based in Belgium but i might get some in the interest of R&D and future self builders!!!


  • #129
    hexosan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭hexosan


    PROJECT K wrote: »
    came across this (http://www.blowerproofliquid.com/en/solutions-products/floor-wall-connections) as part of my research into the OT - its a paint on air tight polymerised paste that doesnt have to be mixed. Is this the answer we have been looking for?!!! They are based in Belgium but i might get some in the interest of R&D and future self builders!!!

    Looks the business any idea of cost.


  • #130
    PROJECT K
    Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭PROJECT K


    Just left a message and sent a follow up email, dont think they have any distributors in Ireland/UK - probably prohibitively expensive to get 5-10L shipped here but i might be able to sort something...


  • #131
    PROJECT K
    Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭PROJECT K


    and heres another one im looking into - http://arcipic.jimdo.com/

    designed to be sprayed on but should work with a brush for small areas like chases etc...


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  • #132
    hexosan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭hexosan


    I've had a few packages shipped from Germany via courier and it's only €30-€50 a package 1.5mx200mmx200mm


  • #133
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    PROJECT K wrote: »
    and heres another one im looking into - http://arcipic.jimdo.com/

    designed to be sprayed on but should work with a brush for small areas like chases etc...

    Came across that product (http://www.pristinecoatings.co.uk/product.php?id=14) before posting this. Post didn't get much response. The video they have makes it look so easy when spraying it on.

    Let us know if you get a response from that other manufacturer.
    Whereabouts are you building?


  • #134
    Tom Hagen
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 86 ✭✭Tom Hagen


    does anybody know if you could possibly tape the socket boxes to help with air leakage? with siga airtight tape. any help appreciated


  • #135
    ht9zni1gs28crp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭ht9zni1gs28crp


    Tom Hagen wrote: »
    does anybody know if you could possibly tape the socket boxes to help with air leakage? with siga airtight tape. any help appreciated

    Yes. It works also. What you are preventing is the air ingress into the chase. So tape/membrane it first before electrics go in. Make sure you get up beyond the ceiling line etc.


  • #136
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    Tom Hagen wrote: »
    does anybody know if you could possibly tape the socket boxes to help with air leakage? with siga airtight tape. any help appreciated

    A number of ways this can be done Tom. Taping and membrane, parge coating with specialist pink plaster (standard plaster might also work). One self builder used a product (think it was called SBR) that was mixed with cement and painted into the chase behind box and conduit.
    I've no data on which is more effective (doubt anyone has) but some approaches are more time consuming than others.


  • #137
    Tom Hagen
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 86 ✭✭Tom Hagen


    rampantbunny wrote: »
    A number of ways this can be done Tom. Taping and membrane, parge coating with specialist pink plaster (standard plaster might also work). One self builder used a product (think it was called SBR) that was mixed with cement and painted into the chase behind box and conduit.
    I've no data on which is more effective (doubt anyone has) but some approaches are more time consuming than others.


    ya my electrician is on about taping the back boxes to help with air leakage. I'm no expert so I'll let him at it. :confused:


  • #138
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    Tom Hagen wrote: »
    ya my electrician is on about taping the back boxes to help with air leakage. I'm no expert so I'll let him at it. :confused:

    Congrats on finding one of the few electricians that considers this. I chatted to a few lads over a year ago when getting quotes and none were up to speed on this..things might be changing.


  • #139
    Tom Hagen
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 86 ✭✭Tom Hagen


    893bet wrote: »
    Knowledge is sparse on the ground where I am.

    Builders merchants look at me like i have two heads
    Electricians the same (but interested to learn)
    Architect about as useful as $%%£ flavoured lollypop

    Airtight tape in the chase wont work as the chase is too narrow from what I can see and I just cant see it getting the chase airtight. I have called my airtight supplier (partell) and they recommended pink bonding or tile grout to seel roughly a metre up from socket box/switch. Fill the chase with the bonding/plaster and push the conduit and box into it and scrap of the excess that comes back out then if required. They also recommended a product to seal around the junstion between the conduit and the socket box.


    why seal only a meter up from socket box? not all the way up the chase? :confused:


  • #140
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    Mixing some cement with SBR and painting on with a brush is a fast enough way of dealing with this. You can also 'paint' behind the boxes. My conduits all stayed within my envelope so didn't need to plug them.


  • #141
    porrige
    Registered Users Posts: 38 ✭porrige


    What about taping the internal side of the back box ?

    Or taping over the conduit with a tape that can handle plaster ?


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