Do we pay too much tax for crappy services?

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

A friend of mine from Malaysia is a doctor specialising in Emergency Medicine and worked in several Dublin A&E Departments. He couldnt believe the third world service here, not to mention the drink and drug problem that comes crashing through the door at the weekends.

Id say they'd cane the arse clean off anyone who'd crash through the hospital doors on drink or drugs, thats why.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I believe they do get something in return. I'll skip ahead, yes I would inform the police/media if I'd proof. My justification is the policies, quangos, inappropriate behavour, and sweet deals that favour private interests over the tax payer. I do not believe this is down to foolishness or incompetence, entirely. Now I hope that eases your mind and I know my views are not a revelation to you us having well covered this ground before, now where do you stand on topic Christy? I always seem to post an opinion and then spend pages justifying it to you who will give none of your own, on topic.
Talk about distraction. Where are you on cutting welfare will help us over cutting need for welfare in the context of value for money for the tax payer, funding other essentials?

So you believe all government politicians get something in return i.e. are corrupt. That's real tinfoil hat stuff.

I'm not distracting from anything, the reason I asked is I've seen you post this conspiracy theory on several threads and you hadn't given the motive before. Thanks for answering even if I do find it bonkers.

Wouldn't be able to give much details on welfare cuts, although I have seen anecdotal evidence of if being too high. The blanket across the board increases do seem a bit suspect and could possibly be better spent

We pay too much tax for NO services..

We pay for our services separately on top of our taxes..

Bins, health, travel, emergency services, street lighting etc are all paid for separately or through Motor Tax, LPT etc..

Large swathes of the working population get very very little for what they pay in taxes here.

fliball123 wrote: »

Totally agree 30 years ago your tax covered all our roads (toll roads on the up) , our bins, our water, our property we had bought (although the stamp was ridiculously high) .. Were is all the money going that we are paying

The public accounts are public documents as far as I know.

That said there isn't a country in the world that are taking in or spending the same as they were 30 years ago

Just in case anyone wanted to have a look at some statistics etc on tax collected via Revenue.

https://revenue.ie/en/corporate/information-about-revenue/statistics/receipts/receipts-taxhead.aspx

Also on the expenditure side.

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

It wasn't though. The roads were crap. The bins were cheaper maybe because volume was much less and the council dug a hole, threw the stuff in and covered it over.

The education system at the time was bloody awful, I had kids with what I now know are special needs in my class and they were basically ignored.

Things were always better years ago, don't question it.

kippy wrote: »

The public accounts are public documents as far as I know.

That said there isn't a country in the world that are taking in or spending the same as they were 30 years ago

Your point being....that we just keep throwing good money after bad on antiquated out dated systems, work practices and public sector contracts...No thanks I want to see some bang for my buck

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

It wasn't though. The roads were crap. The bins were cheaper maybe because volume was much less and the council dug a hole, threw the stuff in and covered it over.

The education system at the time was bloody awful, I had kids with what I now know are special needs in my class and they were basically ignored.

Sorry roads are still crap even do there is a rake load of motor tax collected that should be used for it and yes bins where part of your return for paying tax there were no bin charges how they dealt with the rubbish was on them.



The education system is still awful (still reading peig sayers in some schools for irish) and any time a proposal to try and change is met with a firm NO give us more money from the unions involved. Sorry to hear about your kids but this is still happening people are still slipping through the cracks in education not to mention the people slipping through the cracks in health as in Cervical cancer checks, x-ray scandals and on and on it goes. Yet unions think throw more money at it when there should be more accountability before another penny is put in.



We pay a lot of cash for both sectors and we are not seeing the results in fairness education has come a bit but not where it should be for what we pay in tax for it.

fliball123 wrote: »

And the main reasons for the debt is public sector pay & pensions and welfare which was inflated before the bust (benchmarking) in 2007 during the downturn things like increments still going on and having the knock on effect for the ps pensions..your right do. Its been done to death or debt. The banks cost about 42 billion at this point out of that 200billion and if we sold what we own in the banks it could be significantly less.

What do you suggest the state does to bring spending and debt under control?

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Some form of accountability might dissuade any 'mistaken' wastes of tax payer monies. Checks and balances obviously need improving. Also a purely accountancy driven cost assessment of buying to use as social housing, renting privately as compared to building social/affordable housing. Basically find which is a better deal for the tax payer.
Be a start.

The electorate, as a whole, simply don't care from what I can see.

LeBash wrote: »

By the national debt and the money still being borrowed, I'd say we aren't paying enough tax.

Yeah the services suck as a whole when compared to some parts of continental Europe but I'd prefer to have them there than not to be honest.

Equally we are miles ahead of most countries in the word. Mexico for example doesnt have a postal service, or at least a mate told me that over a few pints and I believed him.

Ironically though for the region of mexico I saw it actually has a better coach and bus service than Ireland. Coaches in particular much nicer with the higher class ones having toilets and working air conditioning

I would honestly say that I would be happy for bus eirrean to be shut down, private sector taking over longer routes as they basically have already with customers using Gobus,City link, DublinCoach and Aircoach far more for Dublin-galway Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Belfast as busses are nicer, quicker and have toilets.

Subsidise regional networks with an emphasis on reliability and time tables that work for those in employment, while back was using a bus eireann would get into work half an hour early every single day as the correct bus for my working hours would not turn up 50% of time, drivers that consistently don't turn up should be pensioned off

This is hilarious!!

When asked the following question:

What do you suggest the state does to bring spending and debt under control?

We get this

Matt Barrett wrote:

Some form of accountability might dissuade any 'mistaken' wastes of tax payer monies. Checks and balances obviously need improving. Also a purely accountancy driven cost assessment of buying to use as social housing, renting privately as compared to building social/affordable housing. Basically find which is a better deal for the tax payer.
Be a start.

So far so good....

Then, we get this when an idea on how to save some money, while delivering a service improvement, we get this.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

How come any privatisation plans usually mean the tax payer part funds them? Private companies won't supply routes unless there's enough money in it. If they won't and we need subsidise them, we're better off running our own. We can regulate fares and 'subsidise' the public for lower fares.
We often look at something were improvement is needed as a bad idea. It's not always the case.

A reversal of opinion within a few posts.

To be honest, this ties in with the OP. Why do we get crappy services with our tax money? Well, the answer is above, as exhibited by MattBarrett.

We, the electorate bemoan the government wasting money, but when ideas are thrown about which can save money, then the same people who bemoan the waste, are quick to give out about these ideas, without really examining them.

We accept the status quo of poor return for our tax money because that is the system we want. Hundreds of thousands of people rely on the system being inefficient and poorly run. These people have jobs because of this system and these people vote. Sure, they want efficiency's brought in elsewhere, which would not impact them.

Using the example above. Irish public transport is poor, really really poor. CIE as a semi-state needs serious reform and new blood running the show, but that means getting rid of people from their highly secure pensionable jobs. Sure the teacher or the HSE admin staff could agree with a reform of CIE. After all they would benefit from it...Until of course the barrel of the gun is aimed at their neck.

The HSE is unreformable because of this mindset. Everyone knows it needs reform, but is any politician really going to fire 20,000 admin staff to free up taxpayers money and implement a more technology-driven administered HSE?

So, yea we are a nation of spoofers and hypocrites. We want 'reform' and accountability when its someone else over there, but when it comes closer to home or if we may lose out in a way, then we don't and we want the status quo.

The classic case of all is child benefit. Millionaires can claim it, and its usually spent on fags and drink. A total waste of money giving no discernable benefit to the child but appeases the adults because they vote. The common sense approach would be to scrap it entirely and put it all and more into free full-time Early Childcare education. Makes sense right, but it will be a brave brave soul to run on that platform.

Direct taxes on many earners are very low.

On income of 48-50k my parents pay 8-10% direct tax (PAYE/USC and PRSI).

In return for the 8-10%, they get:

two medical cards
two free travel passes
free TV licence
35 pm / 420 pa off their elec bill

I've said this many times before, but Ireland is very generous.

kippy wrote: »

The electorate, as a whole, simply don't care from what I can see.

not true the fact is there is no one with any credibility looking to get elected they all look after their pockets first and foremost its very frustrating to look at an election and not have one credible option

fliball123 wrote: »

not true the fact is there is no one with any credibility looking to get elected they all look after their pockets first and foremost its very frustrating to look at an election and not have one credible option

If there actually were a "DEMAND" within the electorate for actual change, surely people would run to meet this demand. The demand simply isn't there from what I can see outside of a minority of people.