Pope slap

NIMAN · 02-01-2020 1:58pm

..... and ironically his speech later was about violence against women!

randomrb · 02-01-2020 1:58pm

There was a good line in the new film "The Two Popes" where pope bendict said to the then cardinal Bergoglio " You are gods messenger but you are not God"

The pope is Human and has human reactions, he was walking away from the crowd and was yanked back unexpectedly he simply tried to free himself.

I think the comparison to other celebrities is apt, try and do that to anyone in the public eye and see how long it takes to be dealt with by security.

Bannasidhe · 02-01-2020 2:02pm

looksee wrote: »

Did you see his face? She hurt him. If someone grabbed my hand awkwardly and caught my arthritisy thumb I would do exactly the same thing and I am 10 years younger than the Pope. I have no time for the whole charade, but it was a natural reaction.

Would you be walking along a crash barrier with people on the other side reaching out to touch you?
Would you, in fact, approach some of those people and take their hands?

My Dad died in Oct, I was (still am) recovering from hand surgery and tbh the recovery has been difficult due to internal build up of scar tissue. I shook people's hands. I would ask them to be gentle but some people reached out and caught my hand in a vice like grip pummeling it up and down as they offered their condolences. The pain was awful.
Should I have slapped them?

tayto lover · 02-01-2020 2:05pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And yet he has apologised....

He is hardly the average 83 year old man. He is an 83 year old absolute 'monarch' and head of an international organisation that claims to be based on love, forgiveness, non-violence and all that doing a walk about among the Faithful.
Yet here he is - retaliating violently.

In rugby that would have seen him sin binned. :P

Good job Punches Pilot wasn’t around.

02-01-2020 2:07pm

reaching a bit here folks

she was out of order, he reacted within reason, bit unfair to hang much more than that on him

splinter65 · 02-01-2020 2:10pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And yet he has apologised....

He is hardly the average 83 year old man. He is an 83 year old absolute 'monarch' and head of an international organisation that claims to be based on love, forgiveness, non-violence and all that doing a walk about among the Faithful.
Yet here he is - retaliating violently.

In rugby that would have seen him sin binned. :P

I’m puzzled as to why you would be happy to allow your 83 year old loved one to be assaulted in the way he was, albeit by a well meaning stranger. Or is it only the fact that it’s only the Pope that makes it alright?

Bannasidhe · 02-01-2020 2:18pm

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m puzzled as to why you would be happy to allow your 83 year old loved one to be assaulted in the way he was, albeit by a well meaning stranger. Or is it only the fact that it’s only the Pope that makes it alright?

That well meaning stranger was there specifically to see that 83 year old man.
In an organised walkabout the 83 year old man approached the barriers and reached out to touch people.
He invited people to reach out for him by approaching the barriers and reaching out.

Hardly a typical event for the average 83 year old now is it?

No-one made the 83 year old approach the crowd.
No one made the 83 year old reach out.
That was his choice - and one you can bet his extensive security was not thrilled about but the 83 year old can over rule them.

Fritzbox · 02-01-2020 2:18pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Should I have slapped them?

If they had tried to yank your arm off like that woman had, why not?

splinter65 · 02-01-2020 2:18pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Would you be walking along a crash barrier with people on the other side reaching out to touch you?
Would you, in fact, approach some of those people and take their hands?

My Dad died in Oct, I was (still am) recovering from hand surgery and tbh the recovery has been difficult due to internal build up of scar tissue. I shook people's hands. I would ask them to be gentle but some people reached out and caught my hand in a vice like grip pummeling it up and down as they offered their condolences. The pain was awful.
Should I have slapped them?

I’m sorry you lost your father. I’m sorry you didn’t think of putting your injured hand in a simple sling when greeting mourners at his funeral in order to avoid being hurt further.
In an effort to reach and reach to criticize the Pope you’re comparing you accepting condolences from family and friends at a family funeral, to an 83 year old head of state on a walkabout, suffering from arthritis, being suddenly violently and painfully almost pulled to the ground while his back was turned and reacting in that instant. Really?

splinter65 · 02-01-2020 2:22pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That well meaning stranger was there specifically to see that 83 year old man.
In an organised walkabout the 83 year old man approached the barriers and reached out to touch people.
He invited people to reach out for him by approaching the barriers and reaching out.

Hardly a typical event for the average 83 year old now is it?

No-one made the 83 year old approach the crowd.
No one made the 83 year old reach out.
That was his choice - and one you can bet his extensive security was not thrilled about but the 83 year old can over rule them.

So in your mind the fact that while his back was turned he was almost dragged to the ground is justified because he volunteered himself to reach out to pilgrims? And you would apply that to any similarly aged person in his position, or is it just because it’s the Pope?

splinter65 · 02-01-2020 2:24pm

NIMAN wrote: »

..... and ironically his speech later was about violence against women!

You think he was violent to her? Ok. Do you think she treated him violently and if she did, did he have the right to defend himself?

splinter65 · 02-01-2020 2:26pm

_Brian wrote: »

Still, for abusing an 83yo man it’s what she deserved.

If it were one of my parents she abused like that I’d lay her out.

Me too. My mother is 85.They are not indestructible. As Boy George said on twitter yesterday, the Pope is not Harry Styles.

02-01-2020 2:26pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That well meaning stranger was there specifically to see that 83 year old man.
In an organised walkabout the 83 year old man approached the barriers and reached out to touch people.
He invited people to reach out for him by approaching the barriers and reaching out.

Hardly a typical event for the average 83 year old now is it?

No-one made the 83 year old approach the crowd.
No one made the 83 year old reach out.
That was his choice - and one you can bet his extensive security was not thrilled about but the 83 year old can over rule them.

big fan of your posting throughout the forum fwiw

but i think its a poor atheism that demands that an aul fella subject himself to a painful wrench because we have a bee in our bonnets about the structures of his organisation

tbh id feel a lot more comfortable making my case as an atheist that said - a pope is only an aul fella. if he has demonstrably human reactions to things, all the better. hes not the worst that ever was, in some ways id say hes doing what he can (a lot more than many in his role have done)

yerwan was in the wrong. calling him breaking her hold on him- which was inappropriate, aggressive and clearly painful- an assault or anything close is really just playacting with the event.

i think we can do better tbh

coolbeans · 02-01-2020 2:31pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Would you be walking along a crash barrier with people on the other side reaching out to touch you?
Would you, in fact, approach some of those people and take their hands?

My Dad died in Oct, I was (still am) recovering from hand surgery and tbh the recovery has been difficult due to internal build up of scar tissue. I shook people's hands. I would ask them to be gentle but some people reached out and caught my hand in a vice like grip pummeling it up and down as they offered their condolences. The pain was awful.
Should I have slapped them?

A bizarre comparison. Were you dragged over to the well wishers against your will i.e. physically displaced? That woman had dreadful manners and while his papishness overreacted it wasn't unreasonable given the violence of her approach. Leave the old man alone I say. Making a mountain out of this molehill only does a disservice to those who are truly the victims of domestic abuse be they male or female.

As an aside I do wonder what the reaction would have been had the protagonists' genders been reversed.

angel eyes 2012 · 02-01-2020 2:36pm

mikhail wrote: »

I don't think that's funny. He's an 83 year old man, and she grabbed him and pulled him hard. If someone did that to my dad, I'd be furious.

I have to admit I laughed. However, my Dad would not be bothered to queue for anything these days, especially a gathering of people to see a pope.

Bannasidhe · 02-01-2020 2:36pm

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m sorry you lost your father. I’m sorry you didn’t think of putting your injured hand in a simple sling when greeting mourners at his funeral in order to avoid being hurt further.
In an effort to reach and reach to criticize the Pope you’re comparing you accepting condolences from family and friends at a family funeral, to an 83 year old head of state on a walkabout, suffering from arthritis, being suddenly violently and painfully almost pulled to the ground while his back was turned and reacting in that instant. Really?

Almost pulled to the ground?
Steady on. He was not almost pulled to the ground.

I am comparing situations where I placed myself in a situation - through my own free will - where contact with people was expected. That contact could, for me, be painful. I accepted that.
The Pope placed himself in a situation, of his own free will, where contact with people would be expected. He did this by walking over to the barriers, He initiated the physical contact with the crowd by reaching out. There was a possibility that contact could be painful.

Bannasidhe · 02-01-2020 2:40pm

coolbeans wrote: »

A bizarre comparison. Were you dragged over to the well wishers against your will i.e. physically displaced?

As an aside I do wonder what the reaction would have been had the protagonists' genders been reversed.

Are you watching the same video?
The Pope walked over to the barriers of his own free will.
He reached out to the crowds to press the flesh of his own free will.
He then went to walk away and the nest person reached out over a crash barrier and grabbed his hand.

No one dragged him over there in the first place. He walked there.

I doubt the Pope would have slapped a man.

coolbeans · 02-01-2020 2:49pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Are you watching the same video?
The Pope walked over to the barriers of his own free will.
He reached out to the crowds to press the flesh of his own free will.
He then went to walk away and the nest person reached out over a crash barrier and grabbed his hand.

No one dragged him over there in the first place. He walked there.

I doubt the Pope would have slapped a man.

I would ask you the same question; he was clearly dragged to a place where he did not want to be. I suggest you look again, as I have. Re the second comment, nice avoidance.

Bannasidhe · 02-01-2020 2:50pm

Deleted User wrote: »

big fan of your posting throughout the forum fwiw

but i think its a poor atheism that demands that an aul fella subject himself to a painful wrench because we have a bee in our bonnets about the structures of his organisation

tbh id feel a lot more comfortable making my case as an atheist that said - a pope is only an aul fella. if he has demonstrably human reactions to things, all the better. hes not the worst that ever was, in some ways id say hes doing what he can (a lot more than many in his role have done)

yerwan was in the wrong. calling him breaking her hold on him- which was inappropriate, aggressive and clearly painful- an assault or anything close is really just playacting with the event.

i think we can do better tbh

It has nothing to do with being an athiest.

This is an annual event organised by the Vatican where the Pope presents himself to be seen by those who believe he is God's representative on Earth.
There is no onus on the Pope to approach the crash barriers.
There is no rule that says he has to press the flesh.
He can wave from a car if he wishes.

The Pope chose to walk to the barriers and grasp people's hands. He may then have realised this caused him pain so went to walk away.
As he did so, the next person in line grabbed his hand. Yes, this was not a good thing to do but no-one seems to be interested in why she did that. She probably saw her only chance to touch her God's representative on Earth slipping from her grasp (as it were) and she reached out. It was stupid. But as an athiest I think being there in the first place was stupid.
The Pope slapped her. That was a stupid thing to do. He must have realised that being grabbed was a possibility when he approached the barriers - he is not a stupid man.

The Pope chose to do a man of the people routine. He got more of the people then he wanted.

I would say it's a 50/50 liability.

splinter65 · 02-01-2020 3:12pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Almost pulled to the ground?
Steady on. He was not almost pulled to the ground.

I am comparing situations where I placed myself in a situation - through my own free will - where contact with people was expected. That contact could, for me, be painful. I accepted that.
The Pope placed himself in a situation, of his own free will, where contact with people would be expected. He did this by walking over to the barriers, He initiated the physical contact with the crowd by reaching out. There was a possibility that contact could be painful.

Yes he nearly fell over when she yanked him. If he were 53 then her determined yank wouldn’t have rendered him so unstable but he’s very elderly, has fallen a number of times recently and is in pain with a common condition amongst the elderly. In order to release her grip on his hand he had to be forceful.
What you are suggesting is that anyone in the public eye of any age in any public scenario of their own free will must not react to inappropriate physical approaches? Or once again, is it only because it’s the Pope?

02-01-2020 3:17pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It has nothing to do with being an athiest.

This is an annual event organised by the Vatican where the Pope presents himself to be seen by those who believe he is God's representative on Earth.
There is no onus on the Pope to approach the crash barriers.
There is no rule that says he has to press the flesh.
He can wave from a car if he wishes.

The Pope chose to walk to the barriers and grasp people's hands. He may then have realised this caused him pain so went to walk away.
As he did so, the next person in line grabbed his hand. Yes, this was not a good thing to do but no-one seems to be interested in why she did that. She probably saw her only chance to touch her God's representative on Earth slipping from her grasp (as it were) and she reached out. It was stupid. But as an athiest I think being there in the first place was stupid.
The Pope slapped her. That was a stupid thing to do. He must have realised that being grabbed was a possibility when he approached the barriers - he is not a stupid man.

The Pope chose to do a man of the people routine. He got more of the people then he wanted.

I would say it's a 50/50 liability.

she grabbed him. he broke the grab.

if it was nothing to do with atheism/religion then bringing anything beyond the above into it is irrelevant imo

no public duty suggests that his personhood is subject to force.

any suggestion of that in any other context would be rightly deemed absurd.

smacl · 02-01-2020 3:24pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Yes he nearly fell over when she yanked him. If he were 53 then her determined yank wouldn’t have rendered him so unstable but he’s very elderly, has fallen a number of times recently and is in pain with a common condition amongst the elderly. In order to release her grip on his hand he had to be forceful.
What you are suggesting is that anyone in the public eye of any age in any public scenario of their own free will must not react to inappropriate physical approaches? Or once again, is it only because it’s the Pope?

If he's frail to that degree it seems like appalling judgement that the security should let him come into contact with a crowd which clearly included some rather fervent religious fanatics. Of course we don't know if that judgement call was made by the Pope in spite of security advise, the Vatican in spite of security advise or by the security people themselves. Cynic that I am I'd guess the Vatican would have no issue taking risks with the Pope's welfare if they thought the PR warranted it.

Of course she shouldn't have grabbed him, and getting a minor smack is par for the course that kind of action, but then he really shouldn't have been placed in that position in the first place. I'd imagine there's more than just your woman smarting from a smacked wrist at this point.

Bannasidhe · 02-01-2020 3:37pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Yes he nearly fell over when she yanked him. If he were 53 then her determined yank wouldn’t have rendered him so unstable but he’s very elderly, has fallen a number of times recently and is in pain with a common condition amongst the elderly. In order to release her grip on his hand he had to be forceful.
What you are suggesting is that anyone in the public eye of any age in any public scenario of their own free will must not react to inappropriate physical approaches? Or once again, is it only because it’s the Pope?

I am saying the Pope is an intelligent, grown man who made the decision to place himself in a position where the possibility of being grabbed by an over excited member of the public was a distinct possibility.
I fact, as no doubt his security team would have been insisting, the possibility of an assassination attempt could not be ruled out.

Knowing the risks, an intelligent, grown man (his age is immaterial) made the decision to approach the barriers and place himself within reach of physical contact.

Things went a bit out of control. An over excited member of the public grabbed at him as he walked away. She is responsible for her actions.
The Pope reacted by slapping her. He is responsible for his actions.

2 people reacted to a situation they found themselves in. Each is responsible for their own part in what happened.

However, I am not buying the whole trope of this being a random assault on an old man.

This is a man who is supposed to set the moral standards as regards human beheaviour (according to himself and the organisation he rules), who placed himself of his own free will in a potentially dangerous scenario and then reacted with anger and a small degree of violence when the situation went beyond his control.

The Pope has apologised "for setting a bad example" - so it would appear he thinks he overreacted. Which is what I am saying he did. I have never justified what the woman did - in fact I posited she may have been suffering from the hysteria known as "religious fervour".

Ironically, while it appears the Pope and I agree (there's a sentence I rarely write) that for a man in his position he "set a bad example" - I am going to get chastised for holding that view.

How ironic.

ohnonotgmail · 02-01-2020 4:42pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It has nothing to do with being an athiest.

This is an annual event organised by the Vatican where the Pope presents himself to be seen by those who believe he is God's representative on Earth.
There is no onus on the Pope to approach the crash barriers.
There is no rule that says he has to press the flesh.
He can wave from a car if he wishes.

The Pope chose to walk to the barriers and grasp people's hands. He may then have realised this caused him pain so went to walk away.
As he did so, the next person in line grabbed his hand. Yes, this was not a good thing to do but no-one seems to be interested in why she did that. She probably saw her only chance to touch her God's representative on Earth slipping from her grasp (as it were) and she reached out. It was stupid. But as an athiest I think being there in the first place was stupid.
The Pope slapped her. That was a stupid thing to do. He must have realised that being grabbed was a possibility when he approached the barriers - he is not a stupid man.

The Pope chose to do a man of the people routine. He got more of the people then he wanted.

I would say it's a 50/50 liability.

so the pope is 50% liable for the woman not letting go? You're just embarrassing yourself.

Bannasidhe · 02-01-2020 5:03pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so the pope is 50% liable for the woman not letting go? You're just embarrassing yourself.

Who is embarrassing themselves?

You who are claiming I said things I didn't say?
The Pope for apologising indicating he believes he was, at least partially, at fault?
Me for agreeing with the Pope?

Tis a conundrum.

ohnonotgmail · 02-01-2020 11:55pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Who is embarrassing themselves?

that would be you.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You who are claiming I said things I didn't say?
The Pope for apologising indicating he believes he was, at least partially, at fault?
Me for agreeing with the Pope?

Tis a conundrum.

I would say it's a 50/50 liability.

unless my maths is very much off you are saying the pope is 50% liable.

smacl · 03-01-2020 12:15am

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

unless my maths is very much off you are saying the pope is 50% liable.

So why is the Pope apologising if he's done nothing wrong?

ohnonotgmail · 03-01-2020 12:36am

smacl wrote: »

So why is the Pope apologising if he's done nothing wrong?

he didnt do anything wrong. the apology is just PR.

PonchoMcHoncho · 03-01-2020 12:45am

He acted as any cantankerous old fart would act. You can't fault him for that. But he's not just any cantankerous old fart.

The church has spent quite a bit of time trying to brainwash people into thinking he's the greatest moral and spiritual authority that walks the earth spreading God's message of love, peace and forgiveness.

Hard to take that seriously watching him angrily hitting some woman who drank a bit too much of the koolade.

03-01-2020 12:55am

PonchoMcHoncho wrote: »

He acted as any cantankerous old fart would act. You can't fault him for that. But he's not just any cantankerous old fart.

The church has spent quite a bit of time trying to brainwash people into thinking he's the greatest moral and spiritual authority that walks the earth spreading God's message of love, peace and forgiveness.

Hard to take that seriously watching him angrily hitting some woman who drank a bit too much of the koolade.

did you take it seriously before?

and theres nothing cantankerous about reacting to someone grabbing and pulling at you like that

these are bad takes guys.

bad takes.

Pope slap

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