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Religious hate-speech in the UK or fearless speaker of truth?

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    #92
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Alfredo Prehistoric Tendon wrote: »
    If it's a fact, then how can it be wrong, to even mention it?
    There's nothing wrong with mentioning or discussing the implications of the fact that certain groups might be overrepresented or underrepresented when it comes to criminal convictions.

    What is wrong is standing up in front of a crowd and implying to a mob with the clear intent to inflame, that the entirety of some group is guilty by association for the crimes of a minority of that group.

    It's for the same reason that moderators on this forum have frequently asked people to edit or retract comments like "all catholic priests are pedophiles", "all religious people are stupid" and so on. Neither statement is true and the discussion is not advanced by making false statements for wayward rhetorical reasons.


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    #93
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Tommy Robinson rights another wrong.
    The strange case of some trainee soldiers who were being disciplined and even discharged after certain people learned that the lads were TR supporters.
    That of course, automatically made them "bigoted scum bags" and so an Islamic organisation decided it was time to pull a few strings.


    TR was not having it though...


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ohDE-JmJRE



    Recedite, The Guarding One


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    #94
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Alfredo Prehistoric Tendon wrote: »
    Not familiar with Robinson, and wouldn't have any time to conisder his ramblings, he's probably not the smartest not the smartest cookie in the jar.

    Meant that the average poster (here), or anywhere else, wouldn't tar them all with the same sweeping generalisation. But...

    ... they would jump to his defense in droves, point out his charitable donations and how he was mistreated by the law. To me this strongly suggests that they're sympathetic to his position. Glad to hear that you're not.
    Why indeed?

    Likely economics plays a factor. Afterall how many young pakistani child-bearing women go to University, or are allowed career enhancement. It's more likely they are discourged, that is a 'cultural fact'. Their husbands would most likely prefer them to stay hidden away and bring up their offspring.

    So it all goes back to integration, but you can't force that. So instead education, but that's not easy. So alas all you can do is discuss it (not brush it under a carpet), with the hope of social education, and then better social integration, later (maybe generations later).

    Another possible reason to consider is the long history of Paki-bashing in the UK and the inevitable backlash. The sentiments expressed by those of the far right today are a clear extension of the racist rhetoric of Powell in the late 60s. If you look at education levels among Pakistanis in the UK they tend be in and around the national average at secondary level and third level while earning a fraction of the money. I take your point about the anti-egalitarian nature of Islam, and very much agree with it, but don't see it's relevance in this particular context.


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    #95
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    robindch wrote: »
    There's nothing wrong with mentioning or discussing the implications of the fact that certain groups might be overrepresented or underrepresented when it comes to criminal convictions.

    What is wrong is standing up in front of a crowd and implying to a mob with the clear intent to inflame, that the entirety of some group is guilty by association for the crimes of a minority of that group.

    It's for the same reason that moderators on this forum have frequently asked people to edit or retract comments like "all catholic priests are pedophiles", "all religious people are stupid" and so on. Neither statement is true and the discussion is not advanced by making false statements for wayward rhetorical reasons.

    Can agree with that, no one should ever say all '___' are '___'.

    However, has there been serious problems, and issues with the behaviour of many catholic priests? Including the prevention, administration and a general unhelpful ingrained secretive cultural fabric within their organisation?

    Certainly Yes.

    Can the same be said of pakistani-muslim gangs in England?

    Certainly Yes, also.

    Only by the exposure of these abnormalaties, is there hope for any redress.

    If anything, Robinson and his groupings are 'not' helping address the issue with extremist views. But even the most balanced of viewers, can agree there is a serious issue at hand. Will brushing it under a carpet help? No.


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    #96
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,359 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Alfredo Prehistoric Tendon wrote: »
    Can agree with that, no one should ever say all '___' are '___'.

    However, has there been serious problems, and issues with the behaviour of many catholic priests? Including the prevention, administration and a general unhelpful ingrained secretive cultural fabric within their organisation?

    Certainly Yes.

    Can the same be said of pakistani-muslim gangs in England?

    Certainly Yes, also.

    Only by the exposure of these abnormalaties, is there hope for any redress.

    The "All X are Y" sort of sentiments are never said aloud. Rather, they are heavily implied. The main reason I think a lot of people who go down this road get perceived a certain way, rightly or wrongly is that many of them tend to use any sort of incident to get on the same soapbox and wheel out the same racist tropes like "Welcome to the new France", "Multicultural enrichment", "Religion of peace", etc...
    Alfredo Prehistoric Tendon wrote: »
    If anything, Robinson and his groupings are 'not' helping address the issue with extremist views. But even the most balanced of viewers, can agree there is a serious issue at hand. Will brushing it under a carpet help? No.

    I'm not denying the issue's existence nor am I advocating silence on the matter. I think a lot of people tire of the tropes and as a result see people who keep bringing it up as being one and the same.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #97
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Alfredo Prehistoric Tendon wrote: »
    Can the same be said of pakistani-muslim gangs in England?

    Certainly Yes, also.

    But does this reflect in anyway on the much larger UK Pakistani Population of who the gangs make up such a tiny minority? For some perspective, we're talking about the actions of what are probably ~100 individuals from a population of 1.17 million (according to the 2011 UK census), so roughly 0.0001% of that population or one person out of every 10 thousand. To talk about Pakistani Muslims in the UK on the basis of these numbers is patently ridiculous, yet this appears to be what many from the far right are doing in pursuit of their anti-immigration agenda. It is not a fair or reasonable way to judge any group of people.


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    #98
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    For some perspective, we're talking about the actions of what are probably ~100 individuals from a population of 1.17 million..
    Are you joking or just deluded? There are nearly that many mugshots displayed on the first page of this thread. And that's just the tip of a very large iceberg.

    Thanks to the activism of TR and a few others we are starting to see some of them belatedly being brought to justice in the last year or two, but we still don't yet know how many are out there.


    Recedite, The Reckoning One


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    #99
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    smacl wrote: »
    ... so roughly 0.0001% of that population.

    And roughly 0.00000000001 % of the white Christians, Jewish, Buddist, Pagans etc etc... are involved in large organised grooming gangs that prey exclusively on young white girls.

    Sorry, but your argument sounds like a ploy from the extreme far-left, playing around with statistics, presented incorrectly, to suit some sort of agenda.

    Many researchers show 84% of grooming gangs, are British-Pakistani.

    12% of convicted rapists in Eng & Wales are Muslim (whether or not they're mostly British-Pakistani isn't specified).
    15% of the prison population E&W is also Muslim (crimes against the person is the largest classification).

    The issue is, thats a severe over-representation within the actual population. By roughly 300%.

    That does not mean, 'everyone' from this specific group is 'at it' it means there is an irregularity, that is all.

    Why try to hide this simple fact?
    Why not discuss what can be done, to reduce it?


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    #100
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    Are you joking or just deluded? There are nearly that many mugshots displayed on the first page of this thread. And that's just the tip of a very large iceberg.

    Thanks to the activism of TR and a few others we are starting to see some of them belatedly being brought to justice in the last year or two, but we still don't yet know how many are out there.


    Recedite, The Reckoning One

    Ok, so on the basis that I'm deluded, I assume that you can put better numbers on it then from a qualified source. From my reading, the moral panic surrounding this issue is largely manufactured. See Grooming and the ‘Asian sex gang predator’: the construction of a racial crime threat for some studied insight on the subject. From the conclusion of that study
    The image of the Asian groomer has proved a seductive and enduring one, yet, as this article has demonstrated, the idea of a uniquely Asian crime threat is ill founded, misleading and dangerous.

    As for the notion that the actions of these gangs somehow reflect on the broader community from which they're drawn, even the Quilliam report notes the following
    to say that the Asian population living in the UK has a CSE problem, or even that the British Pakistani community has a CSE problem is wholly inaccurate and a misrepresentation of the facts. It is more correct to say that there is strain of Asian men, mostly confined to towns and cities in the North of England, that have developed an unfortunately successful method of identifying and grooming young, vulnerable girls to engage in sexual activity with them. (Rafiq and Adil, 2017: 13)

    The article from Youth and Culture is probably one of the more balanced ones out there on the subject. But then the haters like Yaxley-Lennon have no interest in balance unless it entirely coincides with their agenda.


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    #101
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Alfredo Prehistoric Tendon wrote: »
    Many researchers show 84% of grooming gangs, are British-Pakistani.

    As per my previous post, perhaps you'd like to link your sources for 'many researchers' because I've looked and all I see the Quilliam report sitting on top of a two previous CEOPs reports which it uses in a rather dubious manner and a bunch of newspaper articles. The Quilliam report has been accused of being flawed and biased, see Grooming Gangs: Quilliam & the Myth of the 84 Percent. Which of the articles and studies surrounding this topic do you find more compelling and why?


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    #102
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    smacl wrote: »
    As per my previous post, perhaps you'd like to link your sources for 'many researchers' because I've looked and all I see the Quilliam report sitting on top of a two previous CEOPs reports which it uses in a rather dubious manner and a bunch of newspaper articles. The Quilliam report has been accused of being flawed and biased, see Grooming Gangs: Quilliam & the Myth of the 84 Percent. Which of the articles and studies surrounding this topic do you find more compelling and why?

    Sure, you can debate the Quilliam report day and out.

    But here's a more basic 'litmus test'...

    When is the last time you heard or even seen member mugshots about a large organised convicted grooming group from any other specific 'culture' (other than RCC priests, which is a lifestyle-occupation anyway).

    On a similar scale, to the recent exposures of these specific gangs in the UK:

    Rochdale,
    Rotherham,
    Oxford,
    Telford,
    Leeds,
    Birmingham,
    Norwich,
    Burnley,
    High Wycombe,
    Leicester,
    Dewsbury,
    Middlesbrough,
    Peterborough,
    Bristol,
    Halifax &
    Newcastle.

    Do you think the other stats from offical sources are 'made up' also? e.g.

    12% of convicted rapists in Eng & Wales are Muslim (whether or not they're mostly British-Pakistani isn't specified).

    15% of the prison population E&W is also Muslim (crimes against the person is the largest classification).


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    #103
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    As for the notion that the actions of these gangs somehow reflect on the broader community from which they're drawn, even the Quilliam report notes the following..
    You are drawing the wrong conclusions there. Quilliam is quite happy to blame the muslim communities in the northern towns, because Quilliam only represents a small and privileged band of wealthy London based British Asians. They consider themselves superior to those in the northern towns, and also to those in the Islamicised London working class suburbs such as Luton where TR hails from. And perhaps they are superior. But they are not representative of those others, who vastly outnumber them.


    Here's what one prominent and proudly muslim politician had to say...
    the London-based Quilliam Foundation is "a bunch of men whose beards are tame, accents crisp, suits sharp, and who have a message the government wants to hear".
    Recedite, The Majestic One


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    #104
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    recedite wrote: »
    TR was not having it though...
    It's not the only thing which SYL isn't having these days - seems that, together with Twitter, even free-wheeling Paypal has had enough of Yaxley-Lennon's inflammatory rhetoric:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46139193


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    #105
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    robindch wrote: »
    Itogether with Twitter, even free-wheeling Paypal has had enough..
    In a statement, Paypal said it could not comment on individual customers but added that it regularly reviewed accounts to ensure their use aligned with its acceptable use policy
    Somebody has been pulling strings again. But are you not at all concerned that private companies such as these have the power to censor and control public political debate and activity?
    As the crowdfunding donations were used primarily to launch a very expensive Supreme Court appeal to get Tommy out of jail during his unlawful imprisonment, it seems that the pursuit of justice is now contrary to paypal's "acceptable use policy".


    Recedite, The Bountiful One


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    #106
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,178 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    recedite wrote: »
    Somebody has been pulling strings again. But are you not at all concerned that private companies such as these have the power to censor and control public political debate and activity?
    As the crowdfunding donations were used primarily to launch a very expensive Supreme Court appeal to get Tommy out of jail during his unlawful imprisonment, it seems that the pursuit of justice is now contrary to paypal's "acceptable use policy".


    Recedite, The Bountiful One


    Otherwise known as grifting. I cant believe people still fall for his nonsense.


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    #107
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    recedite wrote: »
    Somebody has been pulling strings again. ]
    Who has been pulling which strings and why?
    You keep alluding this the vast and elaborate conspiracy against this guy.

    Please explain who do you think is involved? How do they weld such power?

    Is it secret Muslims? Lizard people?


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    #108
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    King Mob wrote: »
    Who has been pulling which strings and why?
    You keep alluding this the vast and elaborate conspiracy against this guy.

    Please explain who do you think is involved? How do they weld such power?

    Is it secret Muslims? Lizard people?

    (((Globalists)))?


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    #109
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,359 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    recedite wrote: »
    Somebody has been pulling strings again.

    Proof?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #110
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    King Mob wrote: »
    Who has been pulling which strings and why?
    I don't know. Its probably a mixture. Some people in influential positions like this guy. Others like yourself, people who feel some sense of self-satisfaction when they feel they are "punching a nazi". Paypal will easily cave in to such people because "corporate values" as always, are really only to make money and to get more subscribers.


    Lets look at what just happened..
    But Mr Robinson, whose real name is Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, said: "They just don't like my opinion and want to silence me.
    "The government and establishment can see I have public support, they can see I have the ability to fight back."
    He said Paypal had also frozen "a lot" of money that was in the account for 180 days...
    In May, Mr Robinson, 35, was jailed for contempt of court. The 13-month sentence sparked a series of #freetommy protests and a conviction which was later quashed after procedural concerns.
    Is it really such a bad thing when crowdfunding technology is used to get an innocent man out of jail?
    Do you even accept that he was unlawfully arrested and unlawfully imprisoned at Leeds earlier this year?
    Do you think an appeal all the way to the UK Supreme Court and a judgement by the Lord Chief Justice, the top lawyer in the UK, comes cheap?

    If an appeal is successful, as this one was, then the appellant is considered vindicated. The original conviction is considered wrongful. Can you not accept that fundamental fact?



    Recedite, The Loving One


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    #111
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    recedite wrote: »
    I don't know. Its probably a mixture. Some people in influential
    Par example? And evidence of same?
    recedite wrote: »
    Others like yourself, people who feel some sense of self-satisfaction when they feel they are "punching a nazi".
    Oh boy, I've never been part of a conspiracy before!
    recedite wrote: »
    Recedite, The Loving One
    Are you picking these out of a hat?


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    #112
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,178 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    King Mob wrote: »
    Par example? And evidence of same?


    Oh boy, I've never been part of a conspiracy before!


    Are you picking these out of a hat?


    well out of somewhere, certainly.


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    #113
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    King Mob wrote: »
    Par example? And evidence of same?
    The example was actually a link.
    King Mob wrote: »
    Oh boy, I've never been part of a conspiracy before!
    Congrats, its your lucky day :pac:
    King Mob wrote: »
    Are you picking these out of a hat?
    All will be revealed in the fullness of time.

    Will you now answer the questions I asked you 2 or 3 posts back?


    Recedite, The All-Pervading One


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    #114
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    recedite wrote: »
    The example was actually a link.
    Cool beans.
    Evidence that he used his influence to get paypal to do anything?
    Any evidence that he's involved in the conspiracy?
    Any motive in particular for him to be so corrupt? Is he being paid? Or just evil?
    recedite wrote: »
    All will be revealed in the fullness of time.

    Recedite, The All-Pervading One
    You know there's a function in boards that allows you to apply a signature so you don't have to keep signing it each time.


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    #115
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    King Mob wrote: »
    Cool beans.
    Evidence that he used his influence to get paypal to do anything?
    Any evidence that he's involved in the conspiracy?
    Any motive in particular for him to be so corrupt? Is he being paid? Or just evil?
    He's not evil, but he is most definitely a follower of Islam. And he receives a nice salary from the UK taxpayer.

    From the link..
    Nazir Afzal the Crown Prosecution Service’s lead on child sexual abuse and violence against women and girls says "There is no religious basis for the abuse in Rotherham".
    That's it. He knew that in advance of any prosecutions. And he's in a position where he gets to say who gets prosecuted and who does not. Just think about that for a second.
    And there are loads more just like him in control of local councils, boroughs, police, social services etc..


    Most of the abuse and rape allegations have been in the public domain for many years, but the investigations only started much more recently. Like after people such as the bould Tommy started asking questions. But then he got locked up (several times) on various spurious and overblown minor charges.
    King Mob wrote: »
    You know there's a function in boards that allows you to apply a signature so you don't have to keep signing it each time.
    I'm using a different sig each time, but when I settle on one I might use that function, thanks. Which one of them do you think suits me best?

    And are you ready to answer my previous questions yet?


    Recedite, The Wise One


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    #116
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    recedite wrote: »
    He's not evil, but he is most definitely a follower of Islam. And he receives a nice salary from the UK taxpayer.

    From the link..That's it.
    ...
    And there are loads more just like him in control of local councils, boroughs, police, social services etc..
    And by "just like him" you mean...?
    Also Muslims?
    Or...?
    recedite wrote: »
    I'm using a different sig each time, but when I settle on one I might use that function, thanks. Which one of them do you think suits me best?

    Recedite, The Wise One
    None. They all sound incredibly like you're trying too hard.
    I'm honestly perplexed by your logic in using them.


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    #117
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    recedite wrote: »
    He's not evil, but he is most definitely a follower of Islam. And he receives a nice salary from the UK taxpayer.

    From the link..That's it. He knew that in advance of any prosecutions. And he's in a position where he gets to say who gets prosecuted and who does not. Just think about that for a second.
    And there are loads more just like him in control of local councils, boroughs, police, social services etc..


    ...................
    O Noes!!!! The Islamics conspiracy is takin over!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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    #118
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    recedite wrote: »
    Your video of John Bercow above shows an MP abusing parliamentary privilege by using it to insult and slander a fellow citizen from a location where he has immunity to any possible legal defamation proceedings. A cowardly act indeed.

    Mr. Bercow also whinges in a somewhat undemocratic and unconstitutional way that he has no control over "the other place".
    That "other place" is the House of Lords, and to provide fair context and balance to what he was saying, we would also have to view the video which offended him. That involved Lord Pearson complimenting Tommy as "a most remarkable man, not at all what the mainstream media would have you believe".
    As well as being an eloquent speaker, the Baron of Rannoch also shows he has a good understanding of Islam, and of the relationship between the koran and the hadiths (unlike some of his more vocal critics).





    As for the "burden of proof" when making allegations, you made the allegations concerning Tommy Robinson's alleged criminal activities, so its up to you to cite links to them.

    You're wasting your time trying to argue sense in here, "Atheists" that sneer at all religions except Islam - they seem to love that crap here.


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    #119
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,115 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    You're wasting your time trying to argue sense in here, "Atheists" that sneer at all religions except Islam - they seem to love that crap here.

    I don't know why this garbage gets repeated on a regular basis in this forum without any repercussions. It's a straight up lie.


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    #120
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    You're wasting your time trying to argue sense in here, "Atheists" that sneer at all religions except Islam - they seem to love that crap here.




    ..........another "post & run" snide remark.


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    #121
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,022 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Can't be bothered posting counterexamples YET AGAIN.

    Life ain't always empty.



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