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View Poll Results: Collins or DeValera
Collins 188 85.45%
DeValera 32 14.55%
Voters: 220. You may not vote on this poll

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18-11-2018, 01:17   #106
Snickers Man
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In fairness, Rees-Mogg and BJ are unlikely to lead an armed takeover of the Old Bailey and wait it out 'til civil war should anything other than Hard Brexit pass through.
Maybe not, but they'll make endless references to "Dunkirk Spirit", the indomitable nature of the "British Bulldog", the inadvisability of "pushing Britain around", and other appeals ti military action couched in terms of "it's what the generation of 1939-1945 or 1914-1918 would have done.
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18-11-2018, 19:42   #107
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This will always favour Collins, primarily because Dev's judgement includes his subsequent influence on the development of Catholic Ireland.
And why would Collins be any different? He said his prayers and went to Mass as well. Do you think the majority of the population from the 20s up until the 80s would have any time for anyone who was even remotely anti RCC?
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24-11-2018, 10:49   #108
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And why would Collins be any different? He said his prayers and went to Mass as well. Do you think the majority of the population from the 20s up until the 80s would have any time for anyone who was even remotely anti RCC?
One would think as a mixed race person of colour from a single parent family Dev would be popular again.
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24-11-2018, 21:41   #109
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One would think as a mixed race person of colour from a single parent family Dev would be popular again.
Would he have been any different if he was known as Coll?

Ned Coll v Mick Collins, it lacks gravitas or at least is less exotic,less colourful.
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30-11-2018, 21:04   #110
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Collins had the misfortune, or good fortune, depending on your point of view, to die young. We always remember fondly those who die young. De Valera lived to a ripe old age, and we had plenty of time to examine his flaws, weaknesses and errors. So it's maybe not a fair competition.

Many European countries passed from democracy to authoritarianism or, worse, fascism in the 1930s. Ireland did not. It's not difficult to construct an imaginative but plausible alternative history in which Collins does not die, becomes a significant leader who continues to conflate military and political roles while capitalising on his considerable personal magnetism, and ends up becoming a strongman dictator in the 1930s.
I think that is very plausable. For all intents and purposes Collins pretty much was Military Dictator of Southern Ireland.
If he had lived would he have sent Volunteers (or possibly the regular army) to help Franco in the Spanish Civil War or to Russia to help the Whites in Russian civil War? Some of Collin succesors went to fight in Spain for Franco anyway & people who fought against him went to fight for the Spanish Republicans.
Even tho he admired Connolly, a romantic ultra-Nationalist like Collins probably would have despised Marxism and I could see him taking a shine to Mussolini a person who dreamed of a mysty, glorious, Italian past who wanted to return his nation back to that prestigous glory, just like Collins did for Ireland.

Even tho I hated Dev's economic policies like the disasterous trade-war with Britain, he did well to stir Ireland away from Fascism & Leninism, which Ireland could have easily fell into just like Austria, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal,Greece, Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania & Russia all did during the 1920's & 30's. It really was a remarkable achievment to keep the Free State neutral during WWII.
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05-12-2018, 21:44   #111
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The Irish dabbled with Soviets and Fascism, the church (and business interests) had no stomach for the former.... the Blueshirts were a bit of a sideshow, esp with someone like O'Duffy in charge. With a more daring charismatic leader it could have made more headway.

Ireland was better off staying out of WW2, inviting more trouble than it was worth.
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06-12-2018, 00:41   #112
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The Irish dabbled with Soviets and Fascism, the church (and business interests) had no stomach for the former....
To be fair, the church didn't have much stomach for the latter either. One of the strking points about the Blueshirt movement is how little clerical support it attracted, in marked distinction to similar movements in some continental countries.

It might have been different if Ireland at the time had left-wing or anticlerical governments, or the possiblity of such looked realistic. In that scenario, church figures might have been tempted to lend support to O'Duffy's movement.
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13-12-2018, 21:34   #113
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I'm obviously at weak point in my personal emotion level, but listening to that lady speaking personally about Michael Collins made the tears come to me.


My dad [a local man from Blackrock] was often his driver around the Cork City area. He had worshipped him all his life.
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13-12-2018, 21:44   #114
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Bonaparte is not common either in France compared to other statesmen/military. There is just one in Paris, the rue Bonaparte, and none of the quais or bridges are named for him, although several were built on his instructions. There is a Napoleon Bonaparte Bridge in Florida.

That's because Bonaparte was Corsican, not French.
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13-12-2018, 21:49   #115
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One would think as a mixed race person of colour from a single parent family Dev would be popular again.

Explain, please? DeValera's father was Spanish, from the Basque region of Spain. Spaniards/ Basques are Western European Caucasians, not 'black' or even 'brown'.
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14-12-2018, 11:48   #116
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Explain, please? DeValera's father was Spanish, from the Basque region of Spain. Spaniards/ Basques are Western European Caucasians, not 'black' or even 'brown'.
The term is non literal. In the US any one speaking Spanish is considered Hispanic and non white. Naturally it is absurd but it is a the product of a race-obsessed land the US, which is heavily influencing Irish culture. Also some people say he was half Cuban.
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14-12-2018, 16:34   #117
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Great speech from Dev broadcast on the wireless this afternoon - specifically his speech on WWII in 1939, on Ray D'Arcy's show today. Dev came on and first apologised to everybody that because he was so busy he had only notes to read from in front of him and not a prepared manuscript! There was something wonderfully indicative of Dev's political skill in that very humble introduction.

de Valera speech on RTÉ Radio, 1939
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14-12-2018, 21:52   #118
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DeValera's father was Spanish, from the Basque region of Spain.
First time I have heard that one.

De Valera himself, his family and historians, have spent much time and effort over the last century trying to discover who his father was, without any success.

If you have evidence, perhaps you could enlighten us.
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14-12-2018, 22:31   #119
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Éamon de Valera was born on 14 October 1882 in New York City, the son of Catherine Coll, who was originally from Bruree, County Limerick, and Juan Vivion de Valera, described on the birth certificate as a Spanish artist born in the Basque Country, Spain.[5][6] His parents were reportedly married on 18 September 1881 at St Patrick's Church in Jersey City, New Jersey, but archivists have not located any marriage certificate or any birth, baptismal, or death certificate information for anyone called Juan Vivion de Valera (nor for "de Valeros", an alternative spelling). On de Valera's original birth certificate, his name is given as George de Valero and his father is listed as Vivion de Valero. Although he was known as Edward de Valera before 1901, a fresh birth certificate was issued in 1910, in which his first name was officially changed to Edward and his father's surname given as "de Valera".[7][8] As a child, he was known as "Eddie" or "Eddy".[9]

According to Coll, Juan Vivion died in 1885 leaving Coll and her child in poor circumstances.[10] Éamon was taken to Ireland by his uncle Ned at the age of two. Even when his mother married a new husband in the mid-1880s, he was not brought back to live with her, but was reared instead by his grandmother, Elizabeth Coll, her son Patrick and her daughter Hannie, in County Limerick. He was educated locally at Bruree National School, County Limerick and C.B.S. Charleville, County Cork. Aged sixteen, he won a scholarship. He was not successful in enrolling at two colleges in Limerick, but was accepted at Blackrock College, Dublin, at the instigation of his local curate.[11]

and.............

UK Census 1901 held in the National Archives in the Republic of Ireland de Valera listed as Edward in a Roman Catholic boarding school, Blackrock College, in Dublin. This was the same boarding school which T.F. O'Rahilly attended, listed as Rahilly.
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Ronan Fanning (2016). A Will To Power: Eamon De Valera. Harvard University Press. p. 3. ISBN 9780674970557. "De Valera was born on 14 October 1882 in the Nursery and Child's Hospital, Lexington Avenue, Manhattan, New York; the only child of Juan Vivion de Valera and Catherine ('Kate') Coll [..] Vivion de Valera had been born in 1853 in Spain's Basque Country"
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did Dev Valera refuse an offer of Unity...?
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"Flann and me and his greatest story never told", The Irish Times, 12 July 2010 (subscription required)

I'll let you sort that out, I'm off to bed.

Last edited by tac foley; 14-12-2018 at 22:34.
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14-12-2018, 22:54   #120
tabbey
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We know that his mother was Kate Coll.

There is no evidence that Vivion De Valera ever existed. Ms Coll had to give some details of the putative father when registering the birth, but it may be fiction.

Successive waves of researchers have had no success in finding a record of his father, including a priest who was asked personally by Dev.

PS - your bibliography seems to omit the two volumes on Dev by David McCullagh, described by Prof Eunan O'Halpin as the most extensively researched history of DeValera to date.
The first volume "Rise-1882-1932" describes the many researchers attempts to verify Juan Vivion DeValera.

Last edited by tabbey; 14-12-2018 at 23:04.
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