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View Poll Results: Collins or DeValera
Collins 136 83.44%
DeValera 27 16.56%
Voters: 163. You may not vote on this poll

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18-11-2018, 01:17   #106
Snickers Man
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Originally Posted by Ascendant View Post
In fairness, Rees-Mogg and BJ are unlikely to lead an armed takeover of the Old Bailey and wait it out 'til civil war should anything other than Hard Brexit pass through.
Maybe not, but they'll make endless references to "Dunkirk Spirit", the indomitable nature of the "British Bulldog", the inadvisability of "pushing Britain around", and other appeals ti military action couched in terms of "it's what the generation of 1939-1945 or 1914-1918 would have done.
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18-11-2018, 19:42   #107
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This will always favour Collins, primarily because Dev's judgement includes his subsequent influence on the development of Catholic Ireland.
And why would Collins be any different? He said his prayers and went to Mass as well. Do you think the majority of the population from the 20s up until the 80s would have any time for anyone who was even remotely anti RCC?
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24-11-2018, 10:49   #108
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And why would Collins be any different? He said his prayers and went to Mass as well. Do you think the majority of the population from the 20s up until the 80s would have any time for anyone who was even remotely anti RCC?
One would think as a mixed race person of colour from a single parent family Dev would be popular again.
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24-11-2018, 21:41   #109
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One would think as a mixed race person of colour from a single parent family Dev would be popular again.
Would he have been any different if he was known as Coll?

Ned Coll v Mick Collins, it lacks gravitas or at least is less exotic,less colourful.
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30-11-2018, 21:04   #110
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Collins had the misfortune, or good fortune, depending on your point of view, to die young. We always remember fondly those who die young. De Valera lived to a ripe old age, and we had plenty of time to examine his flaws, weaknesses and errors. So it's maybe not a fair competition.

Many European countries passed from democracy to authoritarianism or, worse, fascism in the 1930s. Ireland did not. It's not difficult to construct an imaginative but plausible alternative history in which Collins does not die, becomes a significant leader who continues to conflate military and political roles while capitalising on his considerable personal magnetism, and ends up becoming a strongman dictator in the 1930s.
I think that is very plausable. For all intents and purposes Collins pretty much was Military Dictator of Southern Ireland.
If he had lived would he have sent Volunteers (or possibly the regular army) to help Franco in the Spanish Civil War or to Russia to help the Whites in Russian civil War? Some of Collin succesors went to fight in Spain for Franco anyway & people who fought against him went to fight for the Spanish Republicans.
Even tho he admired Connolly, a romantic ultra-Nationalist like Collins probably would have despised Marxism and I could see him taking a shine to Mussolini a person who dreamed of a mysty, glorious, Italian past who wanted to return his nation back to that prestigous glory, just like Collins did for Ireland.

Even tho I hated Dev's economic policies like the disasterous trade-war with Britain, he did well to stir Ireland away from Fascism & Leninism, which Ireland could have easily fell into just like Austria, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal,Greece, Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania & Russia all did during the 1920's & 30's. It really was a remarkable achievment to keep the Free State neutral during WWII.
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05-12-2018, 21:44   #111
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The Irish dabbled with Soviets and Fascism, the church (and business interests) had no stomach for the former.... the Blueshirts were a bit of a sideshow, esp with someone like O'Duffy in charge. With a more daring charismatic leader it could have made more headway.

Ireland was better off staying out of WW2, inviting more trouble than it was worth.
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06-12-2018, 00:41   #112
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The Irish dabbled with Soviets and Fascism, the church (and business interests) had no stomach for the former....
To be fair, the church didn't have much stomach for the latter either. One of the strking points about the Blueshirt movement is how little clerical support it attracted, in marked distinction to similar movements in some continental countries.

It might have been different if Ireland at the time had left-wing or anticlerical governments, or the possiblity of such looked realistic. In that scenario, church figures might have been tempted to lend support to O'Duffy's movement.
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