224 feared dead in plane crash in Eygpt

darkpagandeath · 05-11-2015 7:32am

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

After 9/11. No?

Thousands of dead multiple plane strikes on a world renowned land mark in America. is slightly different. All a direct Terrorist organised plot and action.

Autonomous Cowherd · 05-11-2015 8:24am

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Thousands of dead multiple plane strikes on a world renowned land mark in America. is slightly different. All a direct Terrorist organised plot and action.

Uh, the point was that in the wake of approximately 3000 US deaths there have been MILLIONS of civilians in Middle East who have lost their lives as direct and indirect result of US response. It is known as ''The War on Terror.''

darkpagandeath · 05-11-2015 8:28am

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Uh, the point was that in the wake of approximately 3000 US deaths there have been MILLIONS of civilians in Middle East who have lost their lives as direct and indirect result of US response. It is known as ''The War on Terror.''

No, the point was in relation to a bomb on one plane then the goal post got moved. This is a tragic event if a bomb still could be mechanical. But comparing 9/11 to this is ridiculous beyond belief.

Autonomous Cowherd · 05-11-2015 8:36am

darkpagandeath wrote: »

No, the point was in relation to a bomb on one plain then the goal post got moved. This is a tragic event if a bomb still could be mechanical. But comparing 9/11 to this is ridiculous beyond belief.

I was not comparing the two events.
Read back and see what the train of thoughts was.

Asherbassadd was being somewhat ironical wondering if Russian response to a terrorist attack would be commensurate with US response to their terrorist attacks.
You suggested a response lacking in proportion by US forces was a ''great fairy tale''.
I responded by suggesting that evidence in history shows that US response to terrorism has not been proportionate and is therefore not a great fairy tale.

That is all I was saying.

darkpagandeath · 05-11-2015 8:41am

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

I was not comparing the two events.
Read back and see what the train of thoughts was.

Asherbassadd was being somewhat ironical wondering if Russian response to a terrorist attack would be commensurate with US response to their terrorist attacks.
You suggested a response lacking in proportion by US forces was a ''great fairy tale''.
I responded by suggesting that evidence in history shows that US response to terrorism has not been proportionate and is therefore not a great fairy tale.

That is all I was saying.

I know exactly what one means, It's more directed at that other poster and what was posted is a Fairytale. This not the Russians 9/11 did Holland go and bomb the middle east ? I find it very interesting the Same Russian media disregarding the BUK missile as it did not support their narrative. Now using American and Western MSM to backup their claims about a bomb. It could be a bomb but the plane had also suffered a tail strike in the past. It's not like it was in an area planes were already getting shot down in like Mh.

Autonomous Cowherd · 05-11-2015 8:54am

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I know exactly what one means, It's more directed at that other poster and what was posted is a Fairytale. This not the Russians 9/11 did Holland go and bomb the middle east ? I find it very interesting the Same Russian media disregarding the BUK missile as it did not support their narrative. Now using American and Western MSM to backup their claims about a bomb. It could be a bomb but the plane had also suffered a tail strike in the past. It's not like it was in an area planes were already getting shot down in like Mh.

Actually if you would read the sources correctly the Russians have said very little about what caused the plane to crash..in fact from the beginning they have denied rushing to terrorism as an explanation. It is US and UK sources that first came forward with the explosion theory and are now consolidating towards a bomb theory. The Russian media so far are only reporting these US and UK assessments, but no authority has come forward from Moscow Yet with a conclusion.
Personally I still have not got any certainly about what happened in this tragic case. I also do not think Russia would respond drastically to the terrorist downing of the aircraft if such was the case, just as Netherlands did not.

On a side note, but relevant since the whole area seems such a flash point and minds are being concentrated by a civilian plane crash, an interesting article for anyone interested in whole Russia/US geopolitics in present time is this one...Just had a gawk at it.

http://www.voltairenet.org/article189146.html

nullzero · 05-11-2015 9:28am

As for comparing this incident to something else I think the closest comparison would be the Lockerbie bombing.

threeball · 05-11-2015 9:37am

nullzero wrote: »

As for comparing this incident to something else I think the closest comparison would be the Lockerbie bombing.

How can you compare it to anything when you don't know what brought it down?

donegaLroad · 05-11-2015 9:56am

How was a device planted on the plane? That is the biggest worry for airline companies at the minute.

Could it have been that the bagage handlers were involved while loading the plane?

kneemos · 05-11-2015 10:10am

The Americans have detected a heat flash from their military radar apparently.
Dunno if that signifies a bomb on the aircraft or a missile.

gandalf · 05-11-2015 10:20am

The first thing I thought of when this story broke was a bomb was the most likely cause. It's the most plausible explanation. Given the number of ground personnel who would have had access to the airplane it is not beyond the realm of possibility that terrorists either had someone on the inside or coerced an existing worker with threats.

seamus · 05-11-2015 10:33am

asherbassad wrote: »

End of any credibility any post you ever make again might have.

I won't lose any sleep over it. It's not like you ever read anyone else's posts anyway.

darkpagandeath · 05-11-2015 10:36am

Could it be a bomb Yes, Could it be a scenario of catastrophic fuselage failure due to stress on the tail section explosive decompression resulting in intimidate loss of control, catastrophic stress resulting in fuel tanks rupturing and resulting in an explosion. It's to early to say but at least thus far the area of wreckage should give them some idea at what altitude the plane broke up at. As for he heat flash that could be jet fuel ignition.

This is exactly what happened in the Mh-320, pilot blamed for having a flight sim terror immediately announced. It's not like Mh-17 where we knew planes where downed before.

Dohnjoe · 05-11-2015 10:37am

kneemos wrote: »

The Americans have detected a heat flash from their military radar apparently.
Dunno if that signifies a bomb on the aircraft or a missile.

The plane was almost 10km up, bit high for AA missile, especially anything ISIS in the region is known to have

Evidence is pointing strongly toward some sort of on board explosive device at the mo

seamus · 05-11-2015 10:43am

donegaLroad wrote: »

How was a device planted on the plane? That is the biggest worry for airline companies at the minute.

Could it have been that the bagage handlers were involved while loading the plane?

Relevant timing: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/11/tsa-airport-screeners-ability-to-detect-weapons-declared-pitiful/

Short answer: Airport security is a sham, it's all theatre. Smuggling weapons and drugs onto aircraft is easy for anyone with a few small connections. Even more so when you're dealing with smaller aircraft and smaller airports.

darkpagandeath · 05-11-2015 10:46am

seamus wrote: »

Relevant timing: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/11/tsa-airport-screeners-ability-to-detect-weapons-declared-pitiful/

Short answer: Airport security is a sham, it's all theatre. Smuggling weapons and drugs onto aircraft is easy for anyone with a few small connections. Even more so when you're dealing with smaller aircraft and smaller airports.

Don't get me started on the old illusion of security like they have in the USA all it does is slow down travel for normal people. It's been proven any kind of internal weapon/device smuggling onto a plane gets through 95% of the time. Terrorists can see monitor and figure out how to get around the security quite effectively unfortunately.

Duggy747 · 05-11-2015 11:07am

I traveled from Ireland and across America, east to west, on numerous changeover flights last year with a normal BIC lighter in my pocket.

I'd forgotten to get rid of it and only realised before I boarded my last flight that day. :pac:

asherbassad · 05-11-2015 1:01pm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Thousands of dead multiple plane strikes on a world renowned land mark in America. is slightly different. All a direct Terrorist organised plot and action.

What's so slightly different? Just the numbers? 9/11 was organised but this airplane attack was NOT organised? What the hell are you talking about?
If there is a threshold of civilian casualties killed in a terrorist strike before you are allowed go invading countries and slaughtering millions in revenge then tell us what is is

So 3000 civilians die in a single day from a terrorist attack....the response is to kill 2 million Afghans and Iraqis.

200 Russians die from a terrorist attack....the response should not be to bomb thousands in related or unrelated locations.

that what you're saying?

asherbassad · 05-11-2015 1:04pm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

No, the point was in relation to a bomb on one plane then the goal post got moved. This is a tragic event if a bomb still could be mechanical. But comparing 9/11 to this is ridiculous beyond belief.

Both are mass murders of civilians in a terrorist attack. I'm asking can the response be the same? Would Russia be justified in finding out where the perpetrators trained and then bomb that country to powder killing hundreds of thousands?

Zillah · 05-11-2015 1:04pm

kneemos wrote: »

The Americans have detected a heat flash from their military radar apparently.
Dunno if that signifies a bomb on the aircraft or a missile.

Military satellite. Radar doesn't deal with heat. I imagine the satellite can detect infrared blooms, which would signify heat.

DarkyHughes · 05-11-2015 1:04pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's natural. If you are far removed from an incident it's always harder to show empathy.

Were very far away from Israel & look how much pages they get each thread about them. People feel empathy for the almighty $

seamus · 05-11-2015 1:18pm

Zillah wrote: »

Military satellite. Radar doesn't deal with heat. I imagine the satellite can detect infrared blooms, which would signify heat.

Also jet fuel isn't all that prone to spontaneously combusting when a plane breaks up. It remains liquid (and therefore non-combustible) below roughly 40 degrees.
In short, it would be quite unlikely that an aircraft break-up at 400kt would cause a large fireball, as the speed of the aircraft would cause any released fuel to disperse faster than it may vaporise. There may some fire or explosive force with whatever heated fuel is already present, but I'd be surprised if radar could pick that up.

I could be wrong though.

asherbassad · 05-11-2015 1:23pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The plane was almost 10km up, bit high for AA missile, especially anything ISIS in the region is known to have

Evidence is pointing strongly toward some sort of on board explosive device at the mo

Maybe some fanatic got past security with more than 200 ml of Gatorade, then mixed it in with some baby food and Brylcreme in the toilet and hey presto...bomb!

Zillah · 05-11-2015 1:27pm

seamus wrote: »

Also jet fuel isn't all that prone to spontaneously combusting when a plane breaks up. It remains liquid (and therefore non-combustible) below roughly 40 degrees.
In short, it would be quite unlikely that an aircraft break-up at 400kt would cause a large fireball, as the speed of the aircraft would cause any released fuel to disperse faster than it may vaporise. There may some fire or explosive force with whatever heated fuel is already present, but I'd be surprised if radar could pick that up.

I could be wrong though.

Radar could detect one signature diverging into multiple signatures, thereby showing that it broke up. The reference to US intel was definitely a military satellite detecting a heat bloom, which signifies a midair explosion.

darkpagandeath · 05-11-2015 1:34pm

seamus wrote: »

Also jet fuel isn't all that prone to spontaneously combusting when a plane breaks up. It remains liquid (and therefore non-combustible) below roughly 40 degrees.
In short, it would be quite unlikely that an aircraft break-up at 400kt would cause a large fireball, as the speed of the aircraft would cause any released fuel to disperse faster than it may vaporise. There may some fire or explosive force with whatever heated fuel is already present, but I'd be surprised if radar could pick that up.

I could be wrong though.

TWA Flight 800

asherbassad · 05-11-2015 1:34pm

The US are claiming that ISIS planted a bomb on the plane. What fcuking hidden agenda do these assholes have now? They know it was a bomb without so much as talking to a single forensics scientist who as of yet hasn't conducted an investigation.

You can always tell when these dicks try to benefit from any kind of disaster or atrocity, so predictable have their responses become.

Must be some way to profit from this atrocity....more scanners at the airports? Turn Russian public opinion against Putin for putting civilians in harm's way over his bombing of ISIS and American funded mercenaries in Syria? Must be some way the US can turn this to their advantage financially or politically.

darkpagandeath · 05-11-2015 1:36pm

asherbassad wrote: »

The US are claiming that ISIS planted a bomb on the plane. What fcuking hidden agenda do these assholes have now? They know it was a bomb without so much as talking to a single forensics scientist who as of yet hasn't conducted an investigation.

You can always tell when these dicks try to benefit from any kind of disaster or atrocity, so predictable have their responses become.

Must be some way to profit from this atrocity....more scanners at the airports? Turn Russian public opinion against Putin for putting civilians in harm's way over his bombing of ISIS and American funded mercenaries in Syria? Must be some way the US can turn this to their advantage financially or politically.

You mean like Russia Immediately pointing to external factors and playing down disrepair of the aircraft ?

kneemos · 05-11-2015 1:37pm

asherbassad wrote: »

The US are claiming that ISIS planted a bomb on the plane. What fcuking hidden agenda do these assholes have now? They know it was a bomb without so much as talking to a single forensics scientist who as of yet hasn't conducted an investigation.

You can always tell when these dicks try to benefit from any kind of disaster or atrocity, so predictable have their responses become.

Must be some way to profit from this atrocity....more scanners at the airports? Turn Russian public opinion against Putin for putting civilians in harm's way over his bombing of ISIS and American funded mercenaries in Syria? Must be some way the US can turn this to their advantage financially or politically.

They may have inside knowledge.
They do keep an eye on these people.

Dr.Internet · 05-11-2015 1:38pm

I hope the russians totally flatten the ****hole

Zillah · 05-11-2015 1:40pm

Dr.Internet wrote: »

I hope the russians totally flatten the ****hole

Egypt?

Dr.Internet · 05-11-2015 1:43pm

Zillah wrote: »

Egypt?

Yep and their neighbours

BoJack Horseman · 05-11-2015 1:45pm

Dr.Internet wrote: »

Yep and their neighbours

Okey-dokey

seamus · 05-11-2015 1:50pm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

TWA Flight 800

Thanks, interesting read, and certainly a possibility. Slightly different scenario though, where the fuel tank fire caused the break-up. I was specifically referring to the possibility of tanks igniting after the break-up.

jam_mac_jam · 05-11-2015 1:54pm

Dr.Internet wrote: »

Yep and their neighbours

You need help

Dr.Internet · 05-11-2015 2:00pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

You need help

Of course I Need help. I don't own any bomber planes or warships. I wasn't suggesting I do it all myself singlehandly

asherbassad · 05-11-2015 2:01pm

kneemos wrote: »

They may have inside knowledge.
They do keep an eye on these people.

Just a few days ago that lunatic John McCain was alluding to giving the FSA missile capabilities to shoot down aircraft at this height. It's also no secret that the FSA is a farce of an organisation concocted in London and they have a histroy of handing over all their toys to nutjobs in various ISIS spinoffs.

And a girl who has her head screwed on:

Zillah · 05-11-2015 2:04pm

Dr.Internet wrote: »

Yep and their neighbours

But, there are brown people all over the place. We should get Pakistan while we're at it too. And I know India haven't been up to much lately but we better flatten them just in case - I saw a few of them wearing turbans.

Parts of France, too.

donegaLroad · 05-11-2015 2:08pm

Duggy747 wrote: »

I traveled from Ireland and across America, east to west, on numerous changeover flights last year with a normal BIC lighter in my pocket.

I'd forgotten to get rid of it and only realised before I boarded my last flight that day. :pac:

I flew from london to toronto in october 2001 with a large screwdriver in my jacket pocket. I didnt know it was there until I went looking for a pen to fill out the customs forms.

kneemos · 05-11-2015 3:59pm

donegaLroad wrote: »

I flew from london to toronto in october 2001 with a large screwdriver in my jacket pocket. I didnt know it was there until I went looking for a pen to fill out the customs forms.

Could have taken the plane apart.

nullzero · 05-11-2015 4:44pm

threeball wrote: »

How can you compare it to anything when you don't know what brought it down?

Its a basic comparison. I never claimed to know what caused the crash.
I love how people jump on you on this site sometimes.

SeanW · 05-11-2015 10:40pm

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

On a side note, but relevant since the whole area seems such a flash point and minds are being concentrated by a civilian plane crash, an interesting article for anyone interested in whole Russia/US geopolitics in present time is this one...Just had a gawk at it.

http://www.voltairenet.org/article189146.html

Israel colonising Northern Syria ... ISIS in Ukraine ... what the actual ****?

asherbassad wrote: »

I suppose it only stands to reason now that if ISIS knocked this plane out of the sky and murdered 200+ Russian civilians including women and children then Russia should go all out and incinerate every single IS camp, depot, training site, the lot.

Much as I hate to say it, seems the Russian and Iranian moves against ISIS are the only ones that are accomplishing a damn thing, so while I'm not a fan of either, if the Russians obliterate IS, more power to them as far as I am concerned. So far they seem to be accomplishing more than the USs "lets arm the rebels" nonsense.

Must be some way to profit from this atrocity....more scanners at the airports? Turn Russian public opinion against Putin for putting civilians in harm's way over his bombing of ISIS and American funded mercenaries in Syria? Must be some way the US can turn this to their advantage financially or politically.

Huh? Not everything is a conspiracy against Russia. Russian civilians are frequently murdered by Islamic terrorists, and they have lost planes due to bombings in the past. Not saying for sure that's what happened, but I assume that Irish, UK and other European authorities would be hesitant to suspend flights to the region without at least some kind of reason.

donegaLroad · 06-11-2015 10:01am

the bomb-in-the-hold theory is official now. It would make me uneasy flying anywhere for a while.

threeball · 07-11-2015 9:18pm

nullzero wrote: »

Its a basic comparison. I never claimed to know what caused the crash.
I love how people jump on you on this site sometimes.

In that case they would have to be comparable which at the time of posting wasn't possible. It could have been comparable to MH317 or any other number of mid air break ups that were for much different reasons so to say it was most comparable to Lockerbie was jumping the gun.

LordSutch · 07-11-2015 9:47pm

donegaLroad wrote: »

the bomb-in-the-hold theory is official now. It would make me uneasy flying anywhere for a while.

But is it still a Theory, or is it a FACT ?

Lots of smoke and mirrors + several 'Theories' in the case of this tragedy.

When that last second of sound is analysed, we'll know more . . . .

seamus · 07-11-2015 9:49pm

LordSutch wrote: »

But is it still a Theory, or is it a FACT ?

Lots of smoke and mirrors + several 'Theories' in the case of this tragedy.

Once that last second of sound is analysed . . . .

I think he means it's officially a theory

It was written off as unlikely by most (including myself) when it first happened, but seems to be the lead theory at this point for everyone except the Egyptians and Russians.

LordSutch · 07-11-2015 10:12pm

Can it really take this long to find 'residue' from a bomb?

nullzero · 08-11-2015 11:33pm

threeball wrote: »

In that case they would have to be comparable which at the time of posting wasn't possible. It could have been comparable to MH317 or any other number of mid air break ups that were for much different reasons so to say it was most comparable to Lockerbie was jumping the gun.

It was more comparable to Lockerbie than 9-11 is the point I was making.
I sometimes wonder is it possible for people to be civil on the Internet, everything has to be an absolute version of itself, the possibility of duality of meaning is seemingly lost on people like you.

snubbleste · 17-11-2015 11:04am

seamus wrote: »

Doesn't initially look like anything nefarious here. Aircraft stalled and dropped out the sky. Probably pilot error.
RIP.

Turns out it is. Russia says plane in Sinai brought down by bomb

Ann22 · 17-11-2015 12:31pm

Russia is offering a Â£33 million reward for info leading the arrests of those responsible.

224 feared dead in plane crash in Eygpt

Comments