Time to get rid of USC, Property tax

Geuze · 15-12-2018 11:49pm

seamus wrote: »

USC was introduced by Fianna Fail as an emergency tax to fill the gaping hole in taxation left by their financial mismanagement.

Note that USC replaces two previous taxes - the Income levy and the Health levy.

For many people, the USC is less than what they paid before.

Geuze · 15-12-2018 11:51pm

Nayeli Thousands Fax wrote: »

Property tax should be abolished, CAT should be abolished (for close relations anyway), DIRT aboilshed, CGT significantly reduced, entry point to higher rate of tax significantly increase, higher rate of tax reduced and high rate of USC for higher earners got rid of.

But USC should be kept as it’s the only tax some people pay who are below the threashold for income tax and rather than expecting middle and higher earners to fund low earners low earners should be contributing themselves.

To do this would require huge cuts to public expenditure.

Given the ageing of the population, pension and health exp goes up by hundreds of millions each year.

What spending do you propose to cut substantially?

Geuze · 15-12-2018 11:57pm

Nayeli Thousands Fax wrote: »

Property tax should be abolished, CAT should be abolished (for close relations anyway), DIRT aboilshed, CGT significantly reduced, entry point to higher rate of tax significantly increase, higher rate of tax reduced and high rate of USC for higher earners got rid of.

At a minimum, that is 1,000m of taxes gone, I'd say much more actually.

What expenditure would you cut?

Please note that State Pension exp increases by 200m pa, before any rate increases.

mvl · 16-12-2018 12:27am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You would need to go after the big three, Welfare, Health and Education. Everything else is relative chickenfeed. Have you some expertise in the provision of any of these? Would you be prepared to see your family members take a hit?

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/

Just seeing there how between 2009 - 2019 the pensions budget increased from 5.82 billion to 8.04 billion, while the total social protection budget is around 20 billion for both years ... sad to see these numbers tbh.

dxhound2005 · 16-12-2018 12:42am

mvl wrote: »

Just seeing there how between 2009 - 2019 the pensions budget increased from 5.82 billion to 8.04 billion, while the total social protection budget is around 20 billion for both years ... sad to see these numbers tbh.

I can't be bothered to look now, but there is another site showing how pensions rocketed from about 1997 to 2007. That was almost completely due to massive annual increases which got FF elected three times in a row.

The increase over the last 10 years would be more to do with a big increase in pensioner numbers. Pensions were frozen for a few years in the emergency, and the Christmas Bonus stopped for a while as well.

mvl · 16-12-2018 12:48am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The increase over the last 10 years would be more to do with a big increase in pensioner numbers. Pensions were frozen for a few years in the emergency, and the Christmas Bonus stopped for a while as while.

that is my assumption too: there would be no more pension money in the magic pot for the new retired persons unless something drastically changes ...

Franz Von Peppercorn · 16-12-2018 11:19am

Geuze wrote: »

What is meant by "personal" taxes?

PRSI is very low, at 4%.

UK = 12%

Germany = 20%

Income tax is below average.

The sum of all personal taxes, income tax, prsi and usc is very high. 50%+ and comes in at a very low income. Both are amongst the worst in the world.

(I’m sure your German prsi levels include corporate taxes but I need to look into it).

Shai · 16-12-2018 1:07pm

Geuze wrote: »

Hundreds of thousands of earners pay 0% income tax here.

My parents pay less than 10% on 49-50k income.

I pay maybe 26-30% on an above average salary.

Sorry, those figures surprise me. Would you mind putting some more context on those? How are earners paying 0% income tax? How are your parents paying 10%?

Geuze · 16-12-2018 10:15pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The sum of all personal taxes, income tax, prsi and usc is very high. 50%+ and comes in at a very low income. Both are amongst the worst in the world.

(I’m sure your German prsi levels include corporate taxes but I need to look into it).

You are correct that the top marginal tax rate of 50% starts very early, yes, at approx 35k.

That is the worst aspect of the Irish income tax system.

However, effective income tax rates are lower than other countries.

German social insurance includes four insurances, nothing to do with CT:

pension, health, unemployment, long-term care.

The employee pays 20-21% approx., subject to ceilings.

Geuze · 16-12-2018 10:17pm

Shai wrote: »

Sorry, those figures surprise me. Would you mind putting some more context on those? How are earners paying 0% income tax? How are your parents paying 10%?

If I get a chance a chance I will check Revenue data for you.

To start with, people aged 65+ pay no tax at all if earning under 36k.

My parents earn 49k approx and pay 8-10% direct income taxes.

This is a reflection of the low effective income tax rates in Ireland.

Geuze · 16-12-2018 10:20pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The sum of all personal taxes, income tax, prsi and usc is very high. 50%+ and comes in at a very low income. Both are amongst the worst in the world.

Let's check the data.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/income-distributors/income-tax-calculation.pdf

2016 gross income = 94,565m

tax due = 15.13%

So now we know that the average effective income tax rate in Ireland is 15.13%

Geuze · 16-12-2018 10:23pm

Shai wrote: »

Sorry, those figures surprise me. Would you mind putting some more context on those? How are earners paying 0% income tax? How are your parents paying 10%?

Let's check the data:

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/income-distributors/income-earners-tax.pdf

2016 income tax

2.4m income tax units

875,000 exempt from income tax

Over 35% of earners pay no income tax.

Shai · 16-12-2018 11:27pm

Geuze wrote: »

Let's check the data:

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/income-distributors/income-earners-tax.pdf

2016 income tax

2.4m income tax units

875,000 exempt from income tax

Over 35% of earners pay no income tax.

I am by no means disagreeing with you, I was merely hoping you might know how this came to be.

_Kaiser_ · 16-12-2018 11:41pm

Tell you what I'd like to see.. The rebalancing of tax so that those unmarried or single aren't unfairly penalised for it in terms of the amounts they pay and the benefits they don't get.

Also ridiculous that buying a decent property now requires 2 full time incomes

troyzer · 16-12-2018 11:43pm

Great idea. Let's get rid of the one positive legacy the **** bags in Fine Gael have: the broadening of the tax base.

Capt'n Midnight · 16-12-2018 11:43pm

Wibbs wrote: »

The "well you can always move house/downsize" is a silly argument that has little practical use unless you're actively looking to buy and where you buy isn't based on where your job/extended family/schools for your kids etc are.

Also if you do move you are have to pay auctioneers fees , and stamp duty and possibly capital gains tax.

_Kaiser_ · 16-12-2018 11:46pm

troyzer wrote: »

Great idea. Let's get rid of the one positive legacy the **** bags in Fine Gael have: the broadening of the tax base.

To be fair, they've since taken so many back out of it again or reduced the rates that they effectively have narrowed it again

troyzer · 16-12-2018 11:52pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Great idea. Let's get rid of the one positive legacy the **** bags in Fine Gael have: the broadening of the tax base.

To be fair, they've since taken so many back out of it again or reduced the rates that they effectively have narrowed it again

I agree. I'm a lefty and I think backing down on water charges was ultimately stupid. They're going to back down on property taxes as well and they've made no secret of the fact that they want to cut USC.

So they've ruined their own legacy.

Shai · 17-12-2018 12:11am

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Tell you what I'd like to see.. The rebalancing of tax so that those unmarried or single aren't unfairly penalised for it in terms of the amounts they pay and the benefits they don't get.

Are they? I thought there was only an income tax difference when only one person in a marriage works? I thought that when both people in a marriage were working each of them was pretty much taxed the same way as an unmarried person?

troyzer · 17-12-2018 12:13am

Shai wrote: »

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Tell you what I'd like to see.. The rebalancing of tax so that those unmarried or single aren't unfairly penalised for it in terms of the amounts they pay and the benefits they don't get.

Are they? I thought there was only an income tax difference when only one person in a marriage works? I thought that when both people in a marriage were working each of them was pretty much taxed the same way as an unmarried person?

Not quite. It's not just if only one person works, it's when one person makes a fair bit more money than the other.

Shai · 17-12-2018 12:19am

I just looked up the details. You are indeed quite correct.

Grueller · 17-12-2018 12:24am

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

People shouldn’t inherit anything. Work for your own wealth in an one generation.

The real price for food is the market price. If the Irish farmers can’t compete let’s them rot. If they can’t manage steak at the price people want, import it.

Absolutely. When farmers here are subject to the same welfare and traceability standards as the countries we import from, like Brazil, where foot and mouth is endemic for example or the USA where they use growth hormones banned in the EU and GM crops.

Geuze · 17-12-2018 12:32am

Shai wrote: »

I am by no means disagreeing with you, I was merely hoping you might know how this came to be.

You can earn a lot in Ireland before you enter the tax net.

It used to be 20k, now 16,500, still higher than many countries.

It's 18k/36k for people aged over 65.

We have a very progressive income tax system.

Very low direct taxes on low earners, but then it rises fast.

Indeed, we have the most progressive income tax system in the OECD.

17-12-2018 1:17am

troyzer wrote: »

Not quite. It's not just if only one person works, it's when one person makes a fair bit more money than the other.

Well it’s not that either, one making a fair bit more than the other makes no difference if both are in the higher tax bracket. If both of a couple are earning the fairly small amount that is required to pay the higher rate of tax then there is no advantage over a single person. If one doesn’t work or earns below the higher rate of tax and the other pays the higher Rae of tax there are some advantages and rightly so as a married couple are treated as a single unit for tax purposes (if you choose to be taxed in this way).

dr.fuzzenstein · 17-12-2018 7:30am

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

People shouldn’t inherit anything. Work for your own wealth in an one generation.

I don't think this is going to fly comradski.

nice_guy80 · 17-12-2018 9:03am

Reduce the USC

Increase property taxes on larger and less energy efficient houses
Especially in wealthier areas

We should be encouraging people to build smaller houses with better energy performance

People will also stop spending daft amounts of money on houses they really cannot afford

17-12-2018 9:52am

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Reduce the USC

Increase property taxes on larger and less energy efficient houses
Especially in wealthier areas

We should be encouraging people to build smaller houses with better energy performance

People will also stop spending daft amounts of money on houses they really cannot afford

Live in a small house? No thanks, they are a waste of space compared to a bigger far more fictional house with all the space and rooms you want.

Time to get rid of USC, Property tax

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