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Workplace issue

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  • 25-11-2020 4:18am
    #1
    Openmind2020
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭


    Hi all , im hoping i can get some advice please , im 4 years in my role and have always been a reliable and dependable employee
    Early 2020 after quite a traumatic 18 months in my personal life i had a serious mental heath issue and i was out for 6 weeks
    Anyway i was honest and told the truth , its ok not to be ok we were told
    Anyway my attendance hasnt been great , ive had a few more absences since , but have always followed procedure
    Also after my initial 6 week absence , on my return i was moved to a complete different department , thats another story
    I was called to hr other day after 3 days absence , and told enough is enough , letting the team down , youve had enough time now etc , i was in shock and still am
    Im so worried they will fire me , and no idea if they can or not
    Ive never had any sort of issues like warnings etc , so any advice is very much appreciated


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    #2
    shinobi
    Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭shinobi


    I'd check out Citizens Info first https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/
    You can Email/Phone/Call into them. They're free & a great resource. Hope this helps.


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    #3
    JustAThought
    Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    Just how much absence have you had in addition to the 6 full weeks?

    TBH if they are so exasperated with you that they are calling you in to say you are a workload burden on your colleagues I’d be very concerned.

    Are you mentally able to work properly and hold down whatever level of job you have? Maybe you’re not. In a nice way, maybe you should revise what you are now capable of and have an honest conversation with yourself about your future path and plans. It looks like HR have come to that point already ahead of you. Maybe there is a step aside position that has less stress or is less
    pivotal that you could move to? One where your absence does not hold the project back and prevent the company moving forward.

    You don’t want to let a job go in this economy or be out looking for a new one with high levels of absentism you have to account for on your record or a medical to go through/pass to get employed again. It might be better to discuss with HR before they make a decision for you. They are not ‘on your side’ and will be ensuring they fulfill their internal and legal requirements to cover their asses - not to fight your corner.
    Labour courts can only do so much in terms of unfair dismissal and token awards that may seem cushy but will be soon spent. I gather you want a future career & to be employable again? I’d look at sidestep options. Have you been out sick much since you moved to your new department? Maybe from their POV they have already moved you and facilitated your illness to a leas pressurised area but you still (in a nice way) cannot cope?


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    #4
    Openmind2020
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭Openmind2020


    Thanks for your honesty ,
    I just did not think i could be fired with no previous diciplinary issues








    uote="JustAThought;115411588"]Just how much absence have you had in addition to the 6 full weeks?

    TBH if they are so exasperated with you that they are calling you in to say you are a workload burden on your colleagues I’d be very concerned.

    Are you mentally able to work properly and hold down whatever level of job you have? Maybe you’re not. In a nice way, maybe you should revise what you are now capable of and have an honest conversation with yourself about your future path and plans. It looks like HR have come to that point already ahead of you. Maybe there is a step aside position that has less stress or is less
    pivotal that you could move to? One where your absence does not hold the project back and prevent the company moving forward.

    You don’t want to let a job go in this economy or be out looking for a new one with high levels of absentism you have to account for on your record or a medical to go through/pass to get employed again. It might be better to discuss with HR before they make a decision for you. They are not ‘on your side’ and will be ensuring they fulfill their internal and legal requirements to cover their asses - not to fight your corner.
    Labour courts can only do so much in terms of unfair dismissal and token awards that may seem cushy but will be soon spent. I gather you want a future career & to be employable again? I’d look at sidestep options. Have you been out sick much since you moved to your new department? Maybe from their POV they have already moved you and facilitated your illness to a leas pressurised area but you still (in a nice way) cannot cope?[/quote]


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    #5
    Openmind2020
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭Openmind2020


    Just a bit more info , the department i was moved to is known internally as "the death dept" no one wants to work there , those that do , come from outside , never ever internally , and its like a revolving door , no one can cope with the 9 hours of abuse and apologising it involves

    This caused me a serious set back and i was out again for 2 weeks
    I just cant help feeling since my honesty to them about what happened me everything changed and they wanted me out


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    #6
    JustAThought
    Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    No. Since your lengthy periods of illness/ absentism. No company or team can function properly with a key member consistantly absent. They are being honest with you.

    The politically correct will agree with you but a good company HR dept will make sure they cover themselves. You have now been told your impact and absence is unsustainable and now putting stress and pressure on other teammates. No doubt this is documented too. Its not a disciplinary matter - your absences and inability to handle the pressure or be available for work are impacting the company and are unsustainable. They have now told you. It’s your call next how you strategise this - in this climate and with a history of considerable absence and mental issues impacting your ability to do your job I would be revising whether I could come in stressed/ill and underperform or request a role or department or seniority change. I wouodn’t like to be looking for another job with that on my record - and thats just being honest.
    Even without a verbal reference check the
    most basic reference check has no. of days absent and often a reason on it - you have to pass a reference check to get another job. What will your figures say for 2020 -(6x5 days) & two or so more weeks? Even taking aside this economic climate who will take
    that on if someone with 2 or 3 days absence is your competiton for another job?

    You have to be thinking of the long term and what is good for you both economically and mentally. Maybe the job and path that once suited you just dosn’t anymore. People change and evolve. Maybe your existing company has a different low pressure role or function you can evolve into. What are your strengths? Programing? Project Management? Logistics? Data Analysis? Is there scope to use your best skills in a different way or elsewhere in the company? Or Maybe there is a needs gap that needs resourcing that has not been resourced that you could provide?

    Don’t be getting stuck in your head about death departments - you need to find a workable solution not a complaint.

    People will bang on about suing & your rights but from dark experience I would find a way to hold on there and get a better fit of a role that won’t put your colleagues under pressure and give them an excuse to remove you and badly erode your future prospects.


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    #7
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    Why did theyove you to a different dept on your return?
    Did you know about this move in advanc?
    Reason I ask is if it has a reputation as a place where there's a high turnover of staff, was it a deliberate move on your company's part to be able to get rid of you.

    I'm sorry you had health difficulties and I'm sorry if be ring honest and truthful with your management has made things more difficult.


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    #8
    Openmind2020
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭Openmind2020


    Again thank you for your honesty ,
    I work in an extremely high pressure industry , i think i might just have had enough after 20 years

    Brexit and Covid together broke alot of us lol

    Id like to walk rather than be fired , never been fired before , i dare say it feels as nasty as sounds
    Can i be fired with no previous issues though ?
    Just doesnt seem right
    JustAThought wrote: »
    No. Since your lengthy periods of illness/ absentism. No company or team can function properly with a key member consistantly absent. They are being honest with you.

    The politically correct will agree with you but a good company HR dept will make sure they cover themselves. You have now been told your impact and absence is unsustainable and now putting stress and pressure on other teammates. No doubt this is documented too. Its not a disciplinary matter - your absences and inability to handle the pressure or be available for work are impacting the company and are unsustainable. They have now told you. It’s your call next how you strategise this - in this climate and with a history of considerable absence and mental issues impacting your ability to do your job I would be revising whether I could come in stressed/ill and underperform or request a role or department or seniority change. I wouodn’t like to be looking for another job with that on my record - and thats just being honest.
    Even without a verbal reference check the
    most basic reference check has no. of days absent and often a reason on it - you have to pass a reference check to get another job. What will your figures say for 2020 -(6x5 days) & two or so more weeks? Even taking aside this economic climate who will take
    that on if someone with 2 or 3 days absence is your competiton for another job?

    You have to be thinking of the long term and what is good for you both economically and mentally. Maybe the job and path that once suited you just dosn’t anymore. People change and evolve. Maybe your existing company has a different low pressure role or function you can evolve into. What are your strengths? Programing? Project Management? Logistics? Data Analysis? Is there scope to use your best skills in a different way or elsewhere in the company? Or Maybe there is a needs gap that needs resourcing that has not been resourced that you could provide?

    Don’t be getting stuck in your head about death departments - you need to find a workable solution not a complaint.

    People will bang on about suing & your rights but from dark experience I would find a way to hold on there and get a better fit of a role that won’t put your colleagues under pressure and give them an excuse to remove you and badly erode your future prospects.


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    #9
    Openmind2020
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭Openmind2020


    Thanks for replying
    I knew nothing of my move into that department it genuinely floored me
    Its never ever been done to any other past or present employee , which is why i got so upset

    Staff turnover is madness , especially that dept


    I applied fir my role and was hired for that role
    Never would have or wanted a role in dept im in now

    Rubberchikken wrote: »
    Why did theyove you to a different dept on your return?
    Did you know about this move in advanc?
    Reason I ask is if it has a reputation as a place where there's a high turnover of staff, was it a deliberate move on your company's part to be able to get rid of you.

    I'm sorry you had health difficulties and I'm sorry if be ring honest and truthful with your management has made things more difficult.


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    #10
    long_b
    Registered Users Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭long_b


    With 4 years experience perhaps they can find some other role for you (in a different area maybe) that will be more suitable - at least for a few months?


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    #11
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    It would make your posts far more legible if you didnt cut off the square brackets in quotes causing them to break.


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    #12
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,843 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Sadly the truth is, many employers don't actually really care about your mental well being, many work environments are actually highly toxic for employees, mentally, it is okay not to be okay, but some employers seem to think this doesn't apply to their business. Your mental well being is extremely critical to your overall well being, you may need to consider your position, and move on, if possible, go out on illness benefit if needs be, and if you can afford it, you can also stay and fight your corner, but your mental well being will probably suffer. Welcome to the real world regarding mental health issues, as a therapist once told me, we re a country that talks about mental health issues, and thats as far as it goes, best of luck with things.


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    #13
    Duke of Url
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭Duke of Url


    Are your health issues related to your work environment?


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    #14
    Openmind2020
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭Openmind2020


    Its certainly an eye opener , and im sorry to say that i regret my honesty and should have said nothing about mental health ,
    Only a month before this happened to me i was personally asked by hr to drum up more interest in the companies darkness into light effort !

    Litte did i know


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    #15
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,843 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Openmind2020 wrote:
    Its certainly an eye opener , and im sorry to say that i regret my honesty and should have said nothing about mental health , Only a month before this happened to me i was personally asked by hr to drum up more interest in the companies darkness into light effort !


    You shouldn't feel ashamed for speaking up about your mental health issues, it's your employer that should be ashamed, speaking up helps you deal with it, and helps others, to be honest, I'm not surprised of your situation, some companies seriously don't care about employees well being, what industry is it?


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    #16
    Openmind2020
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭Openmind2020


    Initially no , but everything since i returned has genuinely destroyed my confidence


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    #17
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,103 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Openmind2020 wrote: »
    Again thank you for your honesty ,
    I work in an extremely high pressure industry , i think i might just have had enough after 20 years

    Brexit and Covid together broke alot of us lol

    Id like to walk rather than be fired , never been fired before , i dare say it feels as nasty as sounds
    Can i be fired with no previous issues though ?
    Just doesn’t seem right]
    You can be dismissed if you are unable to do the job. And this includes inability to do to the job because your health condition won’t allow it.

    If your condition is likely to result in a continuing pattern of repeated absences then, yeah, it’s possible that this is causing your employer problems, and that if a solution isn’t found he could come to the conclusion that you are not fit enough for the position you’re in. That obviously depends on a number of factors, including (a) the demands of your position, and (b) the nature, consequences and likely duration of your health condition. Before dismissing you, your employer would have to follow fair procedures and act fairly, and this includes making you aware of the problem, making you aware of the implications for your employment, exploring solutions other than dismissal, etc.

    For what it’s worth, moving you to the graveyard department and then saying “enough is enough, pull yourself together” doesn’t sound to me like a fair approach to the problem. But of course if push came to shove and you ended up in a shouting match in the tribunal the employer would probably offer a different characterisation of how it has handled the matter. Word to the wise: document carefully what is going on - meetings, conversations, dates, names of those involved, what is said or done, etc. Hopefully you will never need this information for a tribunal hearing but, if you do need it, you want to have it.

    You should consider the possibility that your health condition might be classed as a disability, in which case you have rights under the employment equality legislation, including the right to have your employer put in place appropriate, effective, practical measures to enable you do your job on a equal footing with other employees, provided that this can be done without imposing a “disproportionate burden” on your employer. Would flexible work arrangements, a move to part-time work or some juggling of duties with co-employees enable you to do your job with less impact from, or on, your mental health condition? This would need to be explored and excluded as a possibility before you could be lawfully dismissed. Knowing nothing about your condition I can’t say whether any of this is relevant to your situation, but at the very least you should talk to your doctor about whether changes of this kind in your work situation would be beneficial, and whether you shold be proactive in seeking them from your employer.

    Finally, what you say above - extremely high pressure industry, might just have had enough - raises an obvious question; do you want this job? It goes without saying that you want an income, but if this particular way of earning it is going to exacerbate your mental health issues you might want to consider other possibilities. But you’d prefer not to have to consider other possibilities because you have been dismissed. And if your employer gets the sense that you yourself think your present job is not one you want, any feeling he has that he would like to terminate this relationship are likely to be intensified. So by all means think about this, but do not share your thoughts with your employer. As far as your employer is concerned, you want to explore the ways in which you can be a 100% effective member of his team.

    And finally finally, obviously, if you’re a member of a trade union, approach them and seek their support. They know about this stuff. (And, if you’re not, now you know why you should be.)


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    #18
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,068 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Some people mistakenly think you cannot be dismissed if you are ill/on illness leave. Repeated absences can result in fair dismissal by an employer. The informal warning you were given will have been noted in your employment file, the employer has to be careful to avoid dismissing you unfairly, but it sounds like they are telling you that this is the way things are heading.

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/fair_grounds_for_dismissal.html


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    #19
    Openmind2020
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭Openmind2020


    Thank you so much for your excellent and valuble input
    Im finding some of these tough to hear but very informative
    I worked so hard for 20 years to get to a role i relished and genuinely enjoyed everyday

    I genuinely feel humiliated , my confidence is just non existant anymore


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    #20
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,843 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    havent listened to this yet, but might be helpful

    https://soundcloud.com/sunday-business-post/phoenix-talent-talks-episode-6-mental-health-in-the-workplace


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    #21
    Diziet
    Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭Diziet


    Openmind2020 wrote: »
    Just a bit more info , the department i was moved to is known internally as "the death dept" no one wants to work there , those that do , come from outside , never ever internally , and its like a revolving door , no one can cope with the 9 hours of abuse and apologising it involves

    This caused me a serious set back and i was out again for 2 weeks
    I just cant help feeling since my honesty to them about what happened me everything changed and they wanted me out

    This looks very bad on behalf of the company - deliberately moving you to a position that they know is likely to harm you.

    As others, said, please document everything. I would add that you may want to talk to an employment solicitor as well. You may want to explore a mediated exit instead of ending up in a tribunal, or ill.

    It does not look like your employer has handled that at all well. Please look after your health.


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    #22
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Sadly the truth is, many employers don't actually really care about your mental well being

    Really? I find the salary my employer is paying me goes a long way for my mental well being


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    #23
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Sadly the truth is, many employers don't actually really care about your mental well being, many work environments are actually highly toxic for employees, mentally, it is okay not to be okay, but some employers seem to think this doesn't apply to their business.

    And some think it applies to all their staff, including the ones who constantly have to work harder to cover for the people who don't show up.

    I have sympathy for the OP but I don't see the value in going with a narrative where the company is being harsh on him because he was honest about his issues. Its far more likely that they have lost patience not because he was honest, but because he keeps being absent.


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    #24
    jrosen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭jrosen


    Your in a tough spot op but when your performance or lack thereof impacts on the wider team and the company that can only go unnoticed for so long.

    I would have expected your employer to place you on some sort of PIP, a time to reflect, check in, be monitored. It would have given you a chance to turn things around and ultimately shown the company was willing to work with you. The move to change your dept is an odd one? Did they move you to allow for someone to replace you on your team? Did they move you temporarily? How was it phrased.

    I wouldnt assume its because you absences were down to mental health.


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    #25
    Purple Mountain
    Registered Users Posts: 13,028 ✭✭✭✭Purple Mountain


    I'm just wondering if it might be worthwhile phoning NERA?

    To thine own self be true



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    #26
    Meeoow
    Registered Users Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Meeoow


    OP, don't ever regret or feel ashamed for informing your employer that you have mental health issues. I too have these, and we should be commended for keeping going. I know plenty of able bodied people who are on long term sick, and couldn't be arsed working.
    By moving you to a less favourable area, they are at risk of a constructive dismissal case.


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    #27
    Augme
    Registered Users Posts: 5,188 ✭✭✭Augme


    Unfortunately OP the company have decided they want you out and have made strategic moves to ensure this happens. The move to the new "death dept" would have been done purposely and deliberate in an attempt to get you to resign or to ensure the stress was too much and you been out and then they could act.

    The second part has worked and now you've been given an informal warning. After your next absence I'd expect a written warning and then you'll be fired after any other subsequent absence.


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    #28
    JustAThought
    Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    Meeoow wrote: »
    OP, don't ever regret or feel ashamed for informing your employer that you have mental health issues. I too have these, and we should be commended for keeping going. I know plenty of able bodied people who are on long term sick, and couldn't be arsed working.
    By moving you to a less favourable area, they are at risk of a constructive dismissal case.

    Yes to the first part - personally I’d be more prudent and keep sick notes deliberately non specific. But to the last sentence - that is giving the OP false hope - he cannot go a tribunal saying a department is classed as the death department and everybody there dies or gives up the will to live - from the employers perspective as someone else has already outlined the employers notes will say how he was absent for almost 2
    months, the team suffered, it was obvious (from his own admission) he couldn’t cope somthey moved him to a department where there were vacancies and continued supporting him until further absences in this department too showed he may not be capable of earning his salary/keep.

    OP - as mentioned earlier you CAN be fired as unfit for purpose, not being able to fulfil your end of the contract, or in these present times simply chosen based on past performance and absences or despite these chosen independently due to evolving needs/economic climate to he re-structured out - this can be entirely and legitimately done. It can be cloaked in Covid19 or Britexit reasons with a dusting of poor attendence and no longer able to do the job or just the downturn blamed or that and a combination of absentism nd sadly unable to support etc
    They don’t have to pay you redundancy and it could be managed ( & they have the experts to manage it) quickly and legitimately. I would start brainstorming and maybe do it with someone with a clearer head alongside you and see what the alternatives and preferred alternatives are & expect the worse and have a fame olan for that scenario shouod they call you from your deak to drop down for a meeting. its cruel and its ruthless but you have had an exasperated advance warning of what might be coming.
    You don’t want to be managed out without a strategy. You have sadly already blamed your stress on outside events so you can’t pin that on them. Next move is what you can deliver & how for the company - make it work for you. It might require a sidestep or move to a ‘lesser’ position but a salary is a salary and you need a break - both a mental rest where work isn’t as high pressure and something you can achieve and deliver and feel good doing.

    I also woupdn’t be quick to plan to run to the workplace tribunal - if this company has 20 years service from you it will be tour main reference I suspect and that will be hard to hide or explain in an interview - and as you have aLready found out - companies are not ok with supporting sustained mental health issues where they interfere with your ability to deliver your job. Sadly.


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