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Third Secretary & Development Specialist Campaign 2020

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    #392
    blithe
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭blithe


    Just completed mine. Think it went okay, but I've never done one of these before so I've no real idea whether I did it right or not. Nothing to do but wait and see now :)

    Best of luck to everyone else doing it today and for those doing it again tomorrow.


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    #393
    emhds
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭emhds


    Just finished - that was very tough. Quite confident I'll lose marks based on the fact that it didn't flow very well and was a bit disjointed.

    I found it really hard to choose what info to cut and what to include.

    Very best of luck to those completing it today and to those who have to repeat it tomorrow.


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    #394
    ErikaYa
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭ErikaYa


    Just finished mine. Unsure if I included the important information or not but I did my best. Just about got it in in time as well. Now we wait I guess.

    Best of luck to everyone! Especially those of you having to do it again :(


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    #395
    ddpas
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭ddpas


    How long after submitting did people get a confirmation email?


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    #396
    ErikaYa
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭ErikaYa


    ddpas wrote: »
    How long after submitting did people get a confirmation email?

    I got mine after about 10 minutes


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    #397
    ddpas
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭ddpas


    Cool got it there thanks :) hope it went well for everyone! So hard to know what they're looking for at this stage, hoping I got the main points across


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    #398
    rainyday2020
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭rainyday2020


    Given that some people have to repeat the exercise I believe that this puts these candidates at a distinct disadvantage to other candidates as they now know what they can expect from the exercise.

    The précis exercise should be discounted.


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    #399
    ticklemonster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭ticklemonster


    rainyday2020 wrote: »
    Given that some people have to repeat the exercise I believe that this puts these candidates at a distinct disadvantage to other candidates as they now know what they can expect from the exercise.

    The précis exercise should be discounted.

    How much advantage would these people really have though? Doubt they would void a shortlisting round unless it was a major screw up


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    #400
    emhds
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭emhds


    ticklemonster wrote: »
    How much advantage would these people really have though? Doubt they would void a shortlisting round unless it was a major screw up

    A few reasons, they’ve had a practice run for one, under proper, timed conditions. They got an idea of the type of document it is that we have to summarise. Also they had themes at the end which are an indicator of what they’re looking for. While I can’t imagine them cancelling the entire thing, I would tend to agree.


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    #401
    rainyday2020
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭rainyday2020


    emhds wrote: »
    A few reasons, they’ve had a practice run for one, under proper, timed conditions. They got an idea of the type of document it is that we have to summarise. Also they had themes at the end which are an indicator of what they’re looking for. While I can’t imagine them cancelling the entire thing, I would tend to agree.

    I agree with all the above. Given that PAS's overarching goals is to ensure fairness and consistency at all stages of a competition I think it is safe to say that this is out the window in regards to this competition.


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    #402
    CrouchTiger
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭CrouchTiger


    rainyday2020 wrote: »
    I agree with all the above. Given that PAS's overarching goals is to ensure fairness and consistency at all stages of a competition I think it is safe to say that this is out the window in regards to this competition.

    I really don't think so. Sorry to be frank, but they're just going to get people to do it again and score people based on the result. Seeing it once before isn't really that much help, it's about doing it under pressure and producing the result from an unseen text. Those conditions aren't going to change. A précis is a précis, they are already telling you what it is.


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    #403
    FenFlynn
    Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭FenFlynn


    CrouchTiger wrote: »
    I really don't think so. Sorry to be frank, but they're just going to get people to do it again and score people based on the result. Seeing it once before isn't really that much help, it's about doing it under pressure and producing the result from an unseen text. Those conditions aren't going to change. A précis is a précis, they are already telling you what it is.

    I totally agree with you there. I went through a whole book written on Precis with samples and solutions and hints, but it didn't help me much in the test. There was too little time to even think about any of the techniques or points to be careful about.
    The fact that we had geared up to do it on Wednesday and gave it our all and afterwards completely left it behind, then to be told that you have to do it again is already a test for one's patience and mental attitude. I don't see any advantage in that at all. Not to count in the two mornings took off work, and the stress beforehand, the mere fact that one has to rewire their head and make sure it's in the same mental focus as before is already a lot to ask. Being non native English speaker, I had been reading the news, listening to podcasts beforehand so I could think of words to say, and now to do it again just created so much stress.
    If I had the choice I wouldn't want to be doing it again, not with the practice or the knowledge of the type of the passage. It's just my honest opinion.


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    #404
    CrouchTiger
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭CrouchTiger


    FenFlynn wrote: »
    I totally agree with you there. I went through a whole book written on Precis with samples and solutions and hints, but it didn't help me much in the test. There was too little time to even think about any of the techniques or points to be careful about.
    The fact that we had geared up to do it on Wednesday and gave it our all and afterwards completely left it behind, then to be told that you have to do it again is already a test for one's patience and mental attitude. I don't see any advantage in that at all. Not to count in the two mornings took off work, and the stress beforehand, the mere fact that one has to rewire their head and make sure it's in the same mental focus as before is already a lot to ask. Being non native English speaker, I had been reading the news, listening to podcasts beforehand so I could think of words to say, and now to do it again just created so much stress.
    If I had the choice I wouldn't want to be doing it again, not with the practice or the knowledge of the type of the passage. It's just my honest opinion.

    I have a lot of sympathy for everyone going through this process. If it's any consolation, it's good practice for the job itself which will test all of your resolve, patience, and determination sometimes - even at HQ. When I was going through the testing process it felt interminable and there was no pandemic then. In one way, it is harsh and impersonal in order to be fair to everyone, but it is ruthless. Try stay patient and calm, focus on one stage at a time, and allow yourself to stay realistic about the job - if it doesn't work out many competitive applicants normally have lots of really enviable other opportunities.


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    #405
    FenFlynn
    Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭FenFlynn


    CrouchTiger wrote: »
    I have a lot of sympathy for everyone going through this process. If it's any consolation, it's good practice for the job itself which will test all of your resolve, patience, and determination sometimes - even at HQ. When I was going through the testing process it felt interminable and there was no pandemic then. In one way, it is harsh and impersonal in order to be fair to everyone, but it is ruthless. Try stay patient and calm, focus on one stage at a time, and allow yourself to stay realistic about the job - if it doesn't work out many competitive applicants normally have lots of really enviable other opportunities.

    Thanks a million for the encouragement and advice. I'll be really glad when this is all finished. It is an invaluable experience to take away for sure.


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    #406
    spritefeedback
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭spritefeedback


    Well I was one of those that had to go through the precis exercise twice. Before completing the second one I would have been sympathetic that doing it a second time would have been a benefit. I had gone over in my head my last exercise and spotted some ways to reduce or tighten it up.

    However, having just finished the second one I can say that the topic and type of data for the second exercise was completely different so none of this helped at all. So, for myself, I don't think it was an advantage at all to have done it twice. I am really not sure that my piece today was any stronger than the first one.

    I don't really think that doing an exercise twice makes all that much difference. Although briefing in general is not alien to me, so maybe for others it might but I doubt it.


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    #407
    FenFlynn
    Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭FenFlynn


    Just finished mine as well. I feel this is a far harder passage compared to the previous one. I had 402 words which I think I would be penalised severely for. I meant to cut a sentence but panicked the last few minutes and just hit the send button. I don't see myself going forward though, it was so hard to know what to omit and what to cover, and a few sections I didn't feely understand and had no time to check the meanings on certain words. Ah well, at least it's done now, can forget about it for the moment.


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    #408
    spritefeedback
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭spritefeedback


    CrouchTiger wrote: »
    I have a lot of sympathy for everyone going through this process. If it's any consolation, it's good practice for the job itself which will test all of your resolve, patience, and determination sometimes - even at HQ. When I was going through the testing process it felt interminable and there was no pandemic then. In one way, it is harsh and impersonal in order to be fair to everyone, but it is ruthless. Try stay patient and calm, focus on one stage at a time, and allow yourself to stay realistic about the job - if it doesn't work out many competitive applicants normally have lots of really enviable other opportunities.


    If you don't mind I have a more general query about promotional opportunities. Are there more opportunities for progression as a sitting civil servant, as in are there internal competitions you can apply for as well as external ones.


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    #409
    CrouchTiger
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭CrouchTiger


    spritefeedback wrote: »
    If you don't mind I have a more general query about promotional opportunities. Are there more opportunities for progression as a sitting civil servant, as in are there internal competitions you can apply for as well as external ones.

    There are internal and external competitions for certain roles in the DFA. Third Secretary is always an open external competition to allow everyone an opportunity to join the Department as there are very limited transfer routes into the Department and no permanent transfer mechanisms (the diplomatic positions are distinct from AO, AP, and PO if nominally equivalent in seniority).

    There are internal competitions for DFA diplomats only for First Secretary and Counsellor, but there are also external competitions at these grades that allow anyone to apply.


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    #410
    PeachL00pies
    Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭PeachL00pies


    FenFlynn wrote: »
    Just finished mine as well. I feel this is a far harder passage compared to the previous one. I had 402 words which I think I would be penalised severely for. I meant to cut a sentence but panicked the last few minutes and just hit the send button. I don't see myself going forward though, it was so hard to know what to omit and what to cover, and a few sections I didn't feely understand and had no time to check the meanings on certain words. Ah well, at least it's done now, can forget about it for the moment.

    From the booklet:

    Your summary should take the form of a continuous narrative and should be no longer than 350 - 400 words (i.e. approximately one third the length of the original).

    They haven't put 400 as the cut-off.


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    #411
    spritefeedback
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭spritefeedback


    CrouchTiger wrote: »
    There are internal competitions for DFA diplomats only for First Secretary and Counsellor, but there are also external competitions at these grades that allow anyone to apply.


    Many thanks for coming back to me. Apologies if I’m asking too many questions.


    So in terms of options for First Secretary you would probably have more opportunities as a sitting Third Secretary than as an external candidate. I presume you would have to serve out your probationary period of 1 year before being able to go for internal opportunities.


    I saw reference to quotas between internal and external lists for competitions. Does that mean as an internal candidate you go through the same stages as someone external but you end up on a different list, or is there a separate internal process that produces another list?


    With regards to other internal promotions are they general DFA wide or are they specific trawls for to posts or a mix of both?


    Seems there has been quite an intake of Third Secretaries of late so would expect that means quite a lot of competition for higher grades for those joining in this one.


    Not that is necessarily the most important consideration but I think with any job you take up you should be at least considering how you get one level up. Particularly when there is such a huge salary difference between Third/First Sec both in relative and absolute terms.


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    #412
    CrouchTiger
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭CrouchTiger


    spritefeedback wrote: »
    Many thanks for coming back to me. Apologies if I’m asking too many questions.


    So in terms of options for First Secretary you would probably have more opportunities as a sitting Third Secretary than as an external candidate. I presume you would have to serve out your probationary period of 1 year before being able to go for internal opportunities.


    I saw reference to quotas between internal and external lists for competitions. Does that mean as an internal candidate you go through the same stages as someone external but you end up on a different list, or is there a separate internal process that produces another list?


    With regards to other internal promotions are they general DFA wide or are they specific trawls for to posts or a mix of both?


    Seems there has been quite an intake of Third Secretaries of late so would expect that means quite a lot of competition for higher grades for those joining in this one.


    Not that is necessarily the most important consideration but I think with any job you take up you should be at least considering how you get one level up. Particularly when there is such a huge salary difference between Third/First Sec both in relative and absolute terms.


    I think the idea of going for promotion after 1 year as TS is probably a bit crazy. I mean, people have done it, but you can't realistically expect a promotion to FS till you've gone on posting, and that would mean usually at least 2 years at HQ and 4 years on post, so 6 years. In a word, the competition for a very small number of promotions is going to be very, very intense. The salary difference at the top end for TS (say after 10 years) and the starting salary for FS are not that big.

    I don't really know what you mean about quotas or process. An internal competition is for DFA candidates only, and external competition can be anyone, including DFA candidates. The opportunities will just depend on your CV I guess. Someone might come in with great experience that could see them promoted very quickly.


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    #413
    HartsHat
    Registered Users Posts: 279 ✭✭HartsHat


    CrouchTiger wrote: »
    I think the idea of going for promotion after 1 year as TS is probably a bit crazy. I mean, people have done it, but you can't realistically expect a promotion to FS till you've gone on posting, and that would mean usually at least 2 years at HQ and 4 years on post, so 6 years. In a word, the competition for a very small number of promotions is going to be very, very intense. The salary difference at the top end for TS (say after 10 years) and the starting salary for FS are not that big.

    I don't really know what you mean about quotas or process. An internal competition is for DFA candidates only, and external competition can be anyone, including DFA candidates. The opportunities will just depend on your CV I guess. Someone might come in with great experience that could see them promoted very quickly.

    You also can't apply for an internal competition until you are at least 2 years in the Department.

    Any TS coming in expecting to be promoted before going on posting is in for a land.


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    #414
    CrouchTiger
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭CrouchTiger


    HartsHat wrote: »
    You also can't apply for an internal competition until you are at least 2 years in the Department.

    Any TS coming in expecting to be promoted before going on posting is in for a land.


    Just to say I don't think this is quite right. At least at other levels of seniority. People have come in and applied for internal competitions in less than 2 years. I don't know of anyone who was successful, however. Very much agreed on the latter point!


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    #415
    adwickham
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭adwickham


    CrouchTiger wrote: »
    Just to say I don't think this is quite right. At least at other levels of seniority. People have come in and applied for internal competitions in less than 2 years. I don't know of anyone who was successful, however. Very much agreed on the latter point!

    No, the previous poster is correct. You have to have served two years in the Civil Service before going for internal DFA competitions.


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    #416
    CrouchTiger
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭CrouchTiger


    adwickham wrote: »
    No, the previous poster is correct. You have to have served two years in the Civil Service before going for internal DFA competitions.

    Ah, of course! I meant that you didn't necessarily need 2 years in the DFA to go for an internal competition if you've 2 years elsewhere in the civil service and then entered the DFA via external competition you're probably good to go before 2 years in the DFA? Happy to be corrected though!


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    #417
    HartsHat
    Registered Users Posts: 279 ✭✭HartsHat


    CrouchTiger wrote: »
    Ah, of course! I meant that you didn't necessarily need 2 years in the DFA to go for an internal competition if you've 2 years elsewhere in the civil service and then entered the DFA via external competition you're probably good to go before 2 years in the DFA? Happy to be corrected though!

    Apologies, you're correct. Two years in CS rather than the Dept specifically.


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    #418
    PurpleRainx
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭PurpleRainx


    When can we expect results of stage 3? Reckon interviews will be this side of Christmas? Hope those of us lucky enough to progress to Stage 4 will have ample time to prepare (unlike stage 3!)


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    #419
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Does the order of merit reset at this stage - as in, we’re all at 0 and then they create a brand new one based on the précis.

    Or do they adjust your place on the OOM and it’s a combination of stage 1, 2 and 3. Or a combo of 2 and 3.

    My understanding was that OOM was reset with each stage but it seems a lot to reset it for final stage on basis of just one written exercise (when in non-COVID times the précis was at an earlier stage and only one component out of a few at the assessment centre).

    But I suppose they’re working off a shortlist at this point anyway, so maybe it does make sense to use the précis as the only judgement of whether you’ll proceed to interview as you have already made it to stage 3.


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    #420
    FenFlynn
    Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭FenFlynn


    Does anyone have any idea how many might be placed on a panel this time around?
    Is it a 2 year or 1 year panel like the AO one?


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    #421
    exitstageleft
    Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭exitstageleft


    FenFlynn wrote: »
    Does anyone have any idea how many might be placed on a panel this time around?
    Is it a 2 year or 1 year panel like the AO one?

    I think it's very rarely a one-year panel (but there were ones in both 2017 and 2018). It's often a two-year panel but it can be longer (as I think it was during the recession).

    After making a hames of the first test I'd much rather it be a one year panel but that's pretty unlikely!


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