Seller refusing electrician and plumber visit

FutureGuy · 16-08-2019 3:26pm #1

Hi all, just looking for some advice.

Sale agreed on a house. 3 bed semi d in a city centre. Their solicitor took 3 weeks for papers to get over to our solicitor and I feel that we have been pressured to make up that lost time since.

This solicitor delay delayed our engineer who was going on hols. We eventually buckled to pressure and got a second engineer to do the survey and speed things up. They threatened to pull out so we got in a different engineer.

We had the engineer out last Thursday week and we are awaiting the survey results, expected today. We asked for access for access for a plumber last week too but they cancelled on the day before. This was due the day before the engineer.

Now we are being told they will not allow access to a plumber or any other visits and expect us to sign contracts on Wednesday. The engineer said in passing he cannot access the drains out the back but they need to be checked via cctv as there is clear subsidence on a neighbours extension which might have damaged the drains below (drains flow under the sellers house and into that neighbours).

Thoughts?

Fol20 · 16-08-2019 3:29pm

Run a mile!

If you are only 3 weeks into a deal and they want you to sign as sap while at the same time blocking visits from your tradesmen, then I would be nervous especially if subsidence is in area and pipes need to be checked. Subsidence issues could cost thousands and would be too risky without it tbh.

Brian201888 · 16-08-2019 3:29pm

Unless you're happy to take a chance which I absolutely wouldn't be in a scenario where they are actively blocking you I'd be going back saying to go ahead and cancel the sale and see if they budge at that stage.

If they don't it's surely a huge red flag that there's an issue they were hoping to hide and you're better off away anyway.

Pod123 · 16-08-2019 3:37pm

Sold and bought houses over the years.
Best thing we ever did was to send in our own plumber electrician and carpenter.
We also used an engineer purely to make sure everything was built to planning permission eg entrance septic tank etc. But the trades people saved us money.

TheShow · 16-08-2019 3:39pm

if they have nothing to hide they would grant access.
are you sure it was their solicitor holding things up or were they trying to cover up/fix something?

Unless you are 100% certain there is nothing untoward happening, red flags all over the place here.

FutureGuy · 16-08-2019 4:07pm

Fol20 wrote: »

Run a mile!

If you are only 3 weeks into a deal and they want you to sign as sap while at the same time blocking visits from your tradesmen, then I would be nervous especially if subsidence is in area and pipes need to be checked. Subsidence issues could cost thousands and would be too risky without it tbh.

It took 3 weeks to get their papers to our solicitors. Because of this we had to effectively start our engineer search from scratch - that took a week to complete (there were cheaper quicker engineers but it’s the most important piece to get right so had to get the best we could) and about 7 days to get him on site (busy time of year).

We are bending over backwards. Their solicitor goes of on holidays and we eventually have to change the engineer as a result.

We book the plumber for last week, they cancel last minute and now won’t give access to the plumber, drains and electrician.

We get the engineer out last Thursday and they say they want contacts signed the following week (!?!). We told them there wasn’t a hope because that would give 0 days to read, complete recommended checks and then sign contracts.

We have been open and communicative at every step. We’d have the engineer and subsequent visits done weeks ago had it not been for the delay.

FutureGuy · 16-08-2019 4:16pm

TheShow wrote: »

if they have nothing to hide they would grant access.
are you sure it was their solicitor holding things up or were they trying to cover up/fix something?

Unless you are 100% certain there is nothing untoward happening, red flags all over the place here.

I don’t know to be honest. The cancellation of the plumber at short notice followed now by refusal is a major red flag for us.

Corruptedmorals · 16-08-2019 4:45pm

Yes sounds like a lot of red flags it definitely sounds like they know there is something to hide.

Why was the survey dependent on contracts though? We had the survey done within a week which was 6 weeks before contracts issued.

L1011 · 16-08-2019 5:43pm

Either the house is a state or the sellers are flighty and going to be troublesome. I'd back out

garhjw · 16-08-2019 7:17pm

Drop your offer or walk away

1hnr79jr65 · 16-08-2019 7:20pm

subsidence issues on drainage from neighbours extension are no joke, they cause a hell of alot of issues, walk away cos the cost to fix those drains is many thousands and council wont lift a finger.

FutureGuy · 16-08-2019 7:22pm

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

Yes sounds like a lot of red flags it definitely sounds like they know there is something to hide.

Why was the survey dependent on contracts though? We had the survey done within a week which was 6 weeks before contracts issued.

Sorry, I don't understand when you say "survey dependant on contracts"?

FutureGuy · 16-08-2019 7:27pm

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

subsidence issues on drainage from neighbours extension are no joke, they cause a hell of alot of issues, walk away cos the cost to fix those drains is many thousands and council wont lift a finger.

It's not confirmed because the engineer couldn't access the drain over. We gave the vendors a heads up earlier in the week that we would need to get access for the drains b

Yeah if there is damage there, there is a chance of further damage or blockage in the coming years and I would presume it would all back up on the house we are buying (which is running downhill from "ours" to "theirs".

uck51js9zml2yt · 16-08-2019 7:28pm

You've not signed any contracts...walk away.
They are hiding something and you don't want to uncover it after the contract is signed.

FutureGuy · 16-08-2019 7:37pm

Aryanna Sparse Barrier wrote: »

You've not signed any contracts...walk away.
They are hiding something and you don't want to uncover it after the contract is signed.

I have currently no proof that they are hiding anything. They may just be pressuring us. The transaction hasn't been the smoothest given the delay from their solicitor and then us having to scramble to get a new engineer, so they are probably getting pressure from their buyer on the house they are trying to buy.

But I cannot understand how denying us access for our electrician/plumber/drains cctv is going to help do anything but end the sale entirely.

I'm so frustrated because it's completely ****ing unreasonable on their behalf. We've been running around in circles getting a new engineer and when we do get him in, saying they want contracts signed this time the next week (5 working days). I mean what planet do you live on when you think that soneone will sign contracts 5 working days from an engineer visit? And then as we are due to get the report, deny us access to the house?

STB. · 16-08-2019 7:38pm

Aryanna Sparse Barrier wrote: »

You've not signed any contracts...walk away.
They are hiding something and you don't want to uncover it after the contract is signed.

Probably the buried remains of the previous engineers who discovered the cause of the subsidence issues.

FutureGuy · 16-08-2019 7:39pm

STB. wrote: »

Probably the buried remains of the previous engineers who discovered the cause of the subsidence issues.

That gave me a good laugh. Thanks.

STB. · 16-08-2019 7:44pm

FutureGuy wrote: »

That gave me a good laugh. Thanks.

In all seriousness, subsidence, insurance companies wont touch you.

20% off the price for starters. Most people walk away from headaches. As said earlier, red flags galore here.

FutureGuy · 16-08-2019 7:46pm

STB. wrote: »

In all seriousness, subsidence, insurance companies wont touch you.

20% off the price for starters. Most people walk away from headaches. As said earlier, red flags galore here.

Just to clarify again, it's subsidence in the neighbours and we can see the border wall is also showing a few signs.

tigger123 · 16-08-2019 7:48pm

Walked away from the purchase of a house just before xmas (for different reasons).

It can be hard to leave it behind, but you'll get over it quick enough, trust me. If you can afford this house, you can afford another one in the same area without whatever issues may or may not be lurking underneath.

STB. · 16-08-2019 8:00pm

FutureGuy wrote: »

Just to clarify again, it's subsidence in the neighbours and we can see the border wall is also showing a few signs.

I understand. What is the cause though ? And how far has the problem extended ? Your engineer and the access he requires can only answer that. He is not going to sign off on a report until he gets that answer.

You could call into the neighbour and say hello and shimmy around the subject.

Don't be pressurised. The vendor may already know the extent of issues and is hoping you wont!

FutureGuy · 16-08-2019 8:02pm

I'm actually really angry. It feels like they asked us to get the engineer done so we are are more likely to be locked into the sale.

TheValeyard · 16-08-2019 8:03pm

FutureGuy wrote: »

Just to clarify again, it's subsidence in the neighbours and we can see the border wall is also showing a few signs.

I'd be very worried that it'd not merely in the neighbours. I think there is more than meets the eye here. Do you know if any other houses in the area that are affected.

I'd wonder if you could get insurance on the property?

Is the neighbours house an end terrace house. Mates had a problem with this before, a neighbours house with subsidence ended up affecting there house.

FutureGuy · 16-08-2019 8:06pm

STB. wrote: »

I understand. What is the cause though ? And how far has the problem extended ? Your engineer and the access he requires can only answer that. He is not going to sign off on a report until he gets that answer.

You could call into the neighbour and say hello and shimmy around the subject.

Don't be pressurised. The vendor may already know the extent of issues and is hoping you wont!

It's essentially along the outside wall dividing the main house with the extended kitchen. You can see it from our garden. That extension essentially runs over the drainage. You are right, we have to wait for the engineer report but the only thing it will say is that it needs to be inspected - and we are not allowed send anyone else. :rolleyes:

FutureGuy · 16-08-2019 8:07pm

TheValeyard wrote: »

I'd be very worried that it'd not merely in the neighbours. I think there is more than meets the eye here. Do you know if any other houses in the area that are affected.

I'd wonder if you could get insurance on the property?

Is the neighbours house an end terrace house. Mates had a problem with this before, a neighbours house with subsidence ended up affecting there house.

No it's not the end of terrace.

Corruptedmorals · 16-08-2019 8:28pm

FutureGuy wrote: »

Sorry, I don't understand when you say "survey dependant on contracts"?

Just where you mentioned that the solicitor delay with documents delayed you contacting the first engineer. Was that another condition? We contacted engineer company the next working day after sale agreed and they were in within the week so it was independent of solicitors. The seller's solicitor didn't send anything to ours until 7 weeks after sale agreed. So I was curious about the connection between the two.

The seller is playing an impossible game here. Trying to get you to pay money without verifying your (enormous!) purchase. Really outrageous behaviour.

FutureGuy · 16-08-2019 8:36pm

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

Just where you mentioned that the solicitor delay with documents delayed you contacting the first engineer. Was that another condition? We contacted engineer company the next working day after sale agreed and they were in within the week so it was independent of solicitors. The seller's solicitor didn't send anything to ours until 7 weeks after sale agreed. So I was curious about the connection between the two.

The seller is playing an impossible game here. Trying to get you to pay money without verifying your (enormous!) purchase. Really outrageous behaviour.

Appreciate the explanation - there was paperwork that our solicitor needed before an engineer went out for inspection. By the time he received it, the engineer was about to go on holidays. There was a 3 week window for their solicitor to get this done. They failed and we are paying for it with stress and pressure since then.

s7ryf3925pivug · 16-08-2019 8:39pm

Multiple gas leaks. Dodgy piping, flue, gas tank. Entire central heating system needed to be replaced.
Issue with drain not emptying.
Maintenance required on septic system.
Leaky garage roof, needed to be reassembled.
Concealed crumbling mouldy plaster from water damage.
Probable minor leak under screed subfloor.
Fireplace is a fire hazard, violates regulations.
The exterior paint has gone very patchy and requires redoing.

I feel I've left something out. But that's a list of issues we've uncovered so far with the house we bought a year ago. Cost of repairs well into five figures and continuing to accumulate. We did get a survey. He discovered zero items of the above list.

People do sell houses with significant issues. Refusal to let you check for them means you should absolutely assume there are major issues that would make you not buy the property at all.

FutureGuy · 16-08-2019 8:47pm

Guillermo Freezing Typhoon wrote: »

Multiple gas leaks. Dodgy piping, flue, gas tank. Entire central heating system needed to be replaced.
Issue with drain not emptying.
Maintenance required on septic system.
Leaky garage roof, needed to be reassembled.
Concealed crumbling mouldy plaster from water damage.
Probable minor leak under screed subfloor.
Fireplace is a fire hazard, violates regulations.
The exterior paint has gone very patchy and requires redoing.

I feel I've left something out. But that's a list of issues we've uncovered so far with the house we bought a year ago. Cost of repairs well into five figures and continuing to accumulate. We did get a survey. He discovered zero items of the above list.

People do sell houses with significant issues. Refusal to let you check for them means you should absolutely assume there are major issues that would make you not buy the property at all.

I just read this to my wife. We deeply appreciate you sharing this and we are sorry for the nightmare you are going through.

Dolbhad · 16-08-2019 10:28pm

FutureGuy wrote: »

Just to clarify again, it's subsidence in the neighbours and we can see the border wall is also showing a few signs.

Will affect you insurance wise if in an area of subsidence. Either you won’t get cover for subsidence or if you do, it’s at a high cost. It may be that they are under pressure to sign their contracts and they can’t do that unless you sign. However it’s very unreasonable, especially in holiday season. If they are under this much pressure, they can’t afford a time delay to let it go back on market. Stay firm and insist on the checks or you can’t sign contracts.

astrofool · 16-08-2019 11:29pm

3 weeks is nothing to wait when selling/buying a house, however, there's usually nothing stopping an engineer doing a survey during this time, the engineer will then usually advise if there is any documentation required from the vendors solicitor (e.g. cert of compliance, or issues around the plot), so it's odd that your solicitor was the block here, but maybe there is something special about the house that's not being called out here that made your solicitor add this condition (you also need to keep the selling estate agent aware of all these items, as they will be talking to the vendor directly and will make them nervous about delays).

Do the vendor know you're worried about subsidence? Be up front, and tell them what the inspection is for, make sure the EA knows (they'll dread this as they'll have to put it back on the market with a question mark around subsidence).

Is the house detached? If it is attached to the neighbour, and the neighbour has subsidence, you need to run away fast.

It does sound like there's some naivety on your part, which can be understandable if it's a first purchase, be up front with issues, don't try and scrimp and save on what's required to buy the property (some beginners balk at the idea of getting a survey done before signing contracts in case they "lose" the money, this is a big red flag to any selling EA), the key is to keep everyone fully informed at all stages, and flag when and why decisions get made.

FutureGuy · 17-08-2019 7:31am

astrofool wrote: »

3 weeks is nothing to wait when selling/buying a house, however, there's usually nothing stopping an engineer doing a survey during this time, the engineer will then usually advise if there is any documentation required from the vendors solicitor (e.g. cert of compliance, or issues around the plot), so it's odd that your solicitor was the block here, but maybe there is something special about the house that's not being called out here that made your solicitor add this condition (you also need to keep the selling estate agent aware of all these items, as they will be talking to the vendor directly and will make them nervous about delays).

Do the vendor know you're worried about subsidence? Be up front, and tell them what the inspection is for, make sure the EA knows (they'll dread this as they'll have to put it back on the market with a question mark around subsidence).

Is the house detached? If it is attached to the neighbour, and the neighbour has subsidence, you need to run away fast.

It does sound like there's some naivety on your part, which can be understandable if it's a first purchase, be up front with issues, don't try and scrimp and save on what's required to buy the property (some beginners balk at the idea of getting a survey done before signing contracts in case they "lose" the money, this is a big red flag to any selling EA), the key is to keep everyone fully informed at all stages, and flag when and why decisions get made.

My solicitor has the reputation of being incredibly through and has a history of finding issues that were not picked up on information provided by vendors side. Once he got that info from sellers solicitor, he needed to request a few extras from City Council which I preemptively arranged for collection from the Council.

I have to say we have been very communicative on each step, contacting the EA 3 times per week on all updates, even if it was just to say there was no movement.

I’m sorry if it’s any naivety on my part or I’m misreading, but why would anyone ever sign a contract before getting a structural engineer out on a visit, particularly to a second hand house? 4-5k is a lot of savings.

JustAThought · 17-08-2019 7:37am

Maybe the solicitor is the problem. Have you asked the neighbours if they have a contact for the owners. Might work quicker that way.

FutureGuy · 17-08-2019 8:38am

JustAThought wrote: »

Maybe the solicitor is the problem. Have you asked the neighbours if they have a contact for the owners. Might work quicker that way.

Our solicitor has all his stuff done a good while ago so he’s been a star. Just waiting the engineer report.

STB. · 17-08-2019 8:55am

FutureGuy wrote: »

Our solicitor has all his stuff done a good while ago so he’s been a star. Just waiting the engineer report.

You need to secure access or you will be paying for a report that will be full of caveats.

I think you also need to reamphasise to the vendors that you are a serious buyer, but need peace of mind before you fully commit therefore require access. Worst case scenario for them is further delay if they are looking for a quick sale that is not based on problems that they may or may not know exist.

theteal · 17-08-2019 9:13am

We've had to walk away from a purchase (very late in the process) in the past purely because of vendors being. . . .numpties. I cost quite a bit after searches, reports and solicitor fees etc. but still the best decision we ever made.

I've got to say I'm not sure I'd be wasting the effort on this one, OP. You're not going to spend a massive lump of money without getting your building quality reports done, who in their right mind would? The sellers are being downright unusual by not allowing access. This is basic stuff. What else will they be awkward about??? Too many red flags for me.

I

airy fairy · 17-08-2019 9:24am

If your in the process of getting a mortgage, will the banks even grant the transfer of funds until these queries are addressed?
You say neighbours had subsidence, can you get house insurance in the area? Can you call to the neighbours, have a chat, get a feel for what went on with their subsidence?
All sounds very odd tbh.
If the vendors wants a quick sale, without checks being granted, you can be sure there's something up.

mugsymugsy · 17-08-2019 9:33am

Don't walk away,..RUN. Seriously OP unless they buck their ideas up and give you access then don't waste anymore time.

_Kaiser_ · 17-08-2019 9:36am

Walk away OP.

There's major red flags here and potentially very expensive solutions as others have said and you know yourself, but reading the tone of your posts the other pessure here is your own wish to close the sale.

It's probably a nice house (on the surface) in a area you want to be in, the wife is probably happy too, and maybe mortgage approval wasn't that easy... But by the sound of it and the seller's attitude it's really not worth the risk. Subsidence is no joke (I've seen the effects of that where a house literally started coming apart in the middle as the front sunk into the ground), and it could be the tip of the iceberg if they're now refusing access.

You've 2 options..

- Ring them and tell them that you will not be rushed into a deal, especially not without you having the ability to investigate the issues that have already been flagged first and any other checks. If they aren't happy, they can sell to someone else

- withdraw your offer anyway and look elsewhere. There'll be other houses

Try and take your own desire to close out of it. I think you know it's sounding more and more like a bad deal.

FutureGuy · 17-08-2019 10:29am

STB. wrote: »

You need to secure access or you will be paying for a report that will be full of caveats.

I think you also need to reamphasise to the vendors that you are a serious buyer, but need peace of mind before you fully commit therefore require access. Worst case scenario for them is further delay if they are looking for a quick sale that is not based on problems that they may or may not know exist.

Thanks but it is very hard to not be concerned about the fact that they are denying access after we told them of our concerns over the subsidence in the neighbours and possible damage to the draining.

I am trying hard not to be paranoid but what other reason would they not allow access in the crucial days before the sale.

I mean have the drains CCTV, plumber and electrican lined up. They know this. We could technically get it done before Wednesday. Why else would they not be allowing access?

FutureGuy · 17-08-2019 10:31am

airy fairy wrote: »

If your in the process of getting a mortgage, will the banks even grant the transfer of funds until these queries are addressed?
You say neighbours had subsidence, can you get house insurance in the area? Can you call to the neighbours, have a chat, get a feel for what went on with their subsidence?
All sounds very odd tbh.
If the vendors wants a quick sale, without checks being granted, you can be sure there's something up.

I may talk to the neighbours.

FutureGuy · 17-08-2019 10:35am

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Walk away OP.

There's major red flags here and potentially very expensive solutions as others have said and you know yourself, but reading the tone of your posts the other pessure here is your own wish to close the sale.

It's probably a nice house (on the surface) in a area you want to be in, the wife is probably happy too, and maybe mortgage approval wasn't that easy... But by the sound of it and the seller's attitude it's really not worth the risk. Subsidence is no joke (I've seen the effects of that where a house literally started coming apart in the middle as the front sunk into the ground), and it could be the tip of the iceberg if they're now refusing access.

You've 2 options..

- Ring them and tell them that you will not be rushed into a deal, especially not without you having the ability to investigate the issues that have already been flagged first and any other checks. If they aren't happy, they can sell to someone else

- withdraw your offer anyway and look elsewhere. There'll be other houses

Try and take your own desire to close out of it. I think you know it's sounding more and more like a bad deal.

Good advice, but as I just mentioned to the other poster, even if they come back Monday to say they have changed their mind and will allow access, there are huge red flags in my mind regarding the pressure we are being put under.

TheValeyard · 17-08-2019 11:36am

FutureGuy wrote: »

I may talk to the neighbours.

This could actually solve a lot of issues.

Hollybeg · 17-08-2019 12:20pm

FutureGuy wrote: »

Hi all, just looking for some advice.

Sale agreed on a house. 3 bed semi d in a city centre. Their solicitor took 3 weeks for papers to get over to our solicitor and I feel that we have been pressured to make up that lost time since.

This solicitor delay delayed our engineer who was going on hols. We eventually buckled to pressure and got a second engineer to do the survey and speed things up. They threatened to pull out so we got in a different engineer.

We had the engineer out last Thursday week and we are awaiting the survey results, expected today. We asked for access for access for a plumber last week too but they cancelled on the day before. This was due the day before the engineer.

Now we are being told they will not allow access to a plumber or any other visits and expect us to sign contracts on Wednesday. The engineer said in passing he cannot access the drains out the back but they need to be checked via cctv as there is clear subsidence on a neighbours extension which might have damaged the drains below (drains flow under the sellers house and into that neighbours).

Thoughts?

Run a mile. Buyer beware and all that. Obviously the current owner is well aware of the issues. With the property market on the up, I'm hearing about lots of shisters out there being economical with the truth. Someone I know went sale agreed on a property recently, was told there was no issues, and only for the knowledge of the buyer could have walked themselves into a planning issue that would have been very expensive to resolve.

Ultimate Seduction · 17-08-2019 1:02pm

Pod123 wrote: »

Sold and bought houses over the years.
Best thing we ever did was to send in our own plumber electrician and carpenter.
We also used an engineer purely to make sure everything was built to planning permission eg entrance septic tank etc. But the trades people saved us money.

Why would you send in a carpenter?

Juwwi · 17-08-2019 1:03pm

Would you buy a second had car off the vendors ?, l definitely wouldn't after reading your story so far .

It would be crazy to go ahead imo ,if something major shows up a few years down the line you'll ever forgive yourself .

Murt10 · 17-08-2019 1:21pm

House prices are falling at the moment.

Do yourself a favour and start looking at other houses in the area. Chances are that you'll get a better house now for less money. Plus, other houses will have come on the market since you started looking.

Also, if there was a house that you fancied last time round that was out of your price range, that's still on the market, then maybe the sellers are prepared to accept a lower offer. If it hasn't sold already then they are looking for too much.

Best advice I ever got when buying a house was "if you're not embarrassed by the size of your 1st offer, then you're offering too much".
You can always increase a lowball offer. The 1st offer is just an indication of interest and nobody ever accepts the first offer

If the seller doesn't sell very quickly, the chances are that they won't complete until next year. Ask the EA you are dealing with if he has any other similar properties, as you are considering pulling out.

sjb25 · 17-08-2019 2:38pm

FutureGuy wrote: »

. Why else would they not be allowing access?

This you have said it yourself big red flags I think I'd of just pulled out already but if I really liked the house I may try one more time tell them I've all my people booked to inspect I need access or its no deal right now make your choice if the say no then fair enough best of luck to you would be my response

Dolbhad · 17-08-2019 5:40pm

Murt10 wrote: »

Best advice I ever got when buying a house was "if you're not embarrassed by the size of your 1st offer, then you're offering too much".
You can always increase a lowball offer. The 1st offer is just an indication of interest and nobody ever accepts the first offer

That’s great advice. I was bidding on a house recently and first bid that went it was at asking and I was going why did they do that!! The sellers thought the house is worth way more than they thought and suddenly only wanted bids of 5k or more. We walked away. I wanted to get the first bid and go 20k under asking to set the tone, and let it raise in it’s own time to around asking. But we were the second viewing so couldn’t get the first bid in. We had a debate was 20k under very cheeky but I honestly didn’t think so as I thought asking price was actually the right price for the house.

House is still on the market at moment.

FutureGuy · 17-08-2019 6:06pm

Juwwi wrote: »

Would you buy a second had car off the vendors ?, l definitely wouldn't after reading your story so far .

It would be crazy to go ahead imo ,if something major shows up a few years down the line you'll ever forgive yourself .

Right now, I wouldn’t buy an Xbox because I’m not allowed check it properly.

the_syco · 18-08-2019 12:29am

FutureGuy wrote: »

the only thing it will say is that it needs to be inspected - and we are not allowed send anyone else. :rolleyes:

Ask one more time. When they say no, demand that they return the deposit.

If that doesn't change their tune, you'll know that it's time to walk away.

Seller refusing electrician and plumber visit

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