"do be"

uck51js9zml2yt · 02-05-2018 10:13pm

I hate the Englishism "aren't I"

Are is a third person term. My understanding is it should be "amn't I" or " am I not"...not " are I not"

hullaballoo · 02-05-2018 10:20pm

Aren't I is totally incorrect. At least amn't I is a reasonable attempt at a contraction. If the phrase "am I not" even capable of contraction, it would be something like "am In't" and "amn't I" is close enough for my likeing.

It really boils my piss when I hear someone "correct" someone for saying "amn't I" with "aren't I".

feargale · 02-05-2018 11:38pm

Gravelly wrote: »

God that term drives me nuts. I work with an otherwise normal woman that uses it constantly. I cry a little inside every time she says it.

"Do be" is a calque from the Irish language, which compensates for a hiatus in the Queen's English. The latter has no explicit habitual present , no precise way of saying "I do be playing football on Saturdays." Another poster has cited "I usually" etc, but it's not exactly the same, just as some languages for instance lack a plural, e.g. Chinese, and have to resort to numbers or words like "many" etc.. It's a universal phenomenon, where people lose their erstwhile language's vocabulary but not their way of thinking.
"Do be" , as per Joyce, is perfectly good Hiberno-English, but of course you wouldn't say it to Her Majesty when you turn up at Buck House for the knighthood. Otherwise I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

As a culchie, speaking of Hiberno-English, I will never till the day I die twig the difference between will and shall.

fritzelly · 02-05-2018 11:42pm

Lots of people I know use that term and I always take the piss out of them about it

feargale wrote: »

I will never till the day I die twig the difference between will and shall.

First person i.e you or you as a group should use shall but talking about others you use will - but who really cares these days, I don't understand half the stuff the millenials are saying, instagram,snapchat - say what?

hullaballoo · 02-05-2018 11:48pm

Will or shall is a funny one. Generally, shall is supposed to be used for first-person forms. "I/we shall be late" whereas "will" is used for second- and third-person forms, "they/he/she/it will be late".

However, "shall" is often used to express an imperative from a legal perspective, where "will" is never used.

"A person who does [x] shall be convicted of an offence" - removes discretion to allow a person who does [x] to be treated in some other way.

I'm not sure there is an equivalent for "will" in that context but maybe it's the case that "shall" is only used in very formal English or by the British aristocracy?

"Will" just doesn't seem to express as strong or imperative an intent. I could be wrong but that's what I've picked up on thus far.

feargale · 02-05-2018 11:50pm

fritzelly wrote: »

Lots of people I know use that term and I always take the piss out of them about it

First person i.e you or you as a group should use shall but talking about others you use will - but who really cares these days, I don't understand half the stuff the millenials are saying, instagram,snapchat - say what?

I do be confused about it.

GreeBo · 02-05-2018 11:56pm

It boils my piss.
Up there with "I seen him" or "I done that" for me.

I'd wager that while it may be historically tied to our native tongue, the number of people using the "do be" expression today have English as their first language and are not translating from Irish in their heads.

When I hear people say it I think that they do be ignorant oafs.

feargale · 03-05-2018 12:14am

GreeBo wrote: »

It boils my piss.

Don't tell that to Her Majesty when you meet her.

GreeBo wrote: »

IUp there with "I seen him" or "I done that" for me.

That use of the past participle for the past perfect was common in Munster two generations ago, but seems to be pretty much confined to Ulster now. I don't know how it came about. It may be a simple error or maybe there's a deeper underlying reason.

GreeBo wrote: »

I'd wager that while it may be historically tied to our native tongue, the number of people using the "do be" expression today have English as their first language and are not translating from Irish in their heads.

You grossly underestimate the timeframe of language shift.

GreeBo wrote: »

When I hear people say it I think that they do be ignorant oafs.

Some of them do be thinking the same about people who travel on the Dort. Be nice to them when you meet them. They control that city.

ButtersSuki · 03-05-2018 12:25am

Some of you would have heart attacks if you heard Joe Duffy speaking his own unique form of Dubalinese; the others would have a heart attack based solely on the stupidity of his comments.

He does be using “do be” every day. I seen it myself.

They’re hardly his worst crimes against the English language though. I’d give some examples but I’m too tired and going to bed. My dogs however speak better Irish than him.

looksee · 03-05-2018 12:27am

Mod: There is a small degree of techyness creeping into the conversation - its an interesting topic, lets try and keep it civil and not too personal please. (Hmm, lets looks as though it should have an apostrophe...)

Mearings · 03-05-2018 10:56am

looksee wrote: »

Mod: There is a small degree of techyness creeping into the conversation - its an interesting topic, lets try and keep it civil and not too personal please. (Hmm, lets looks as though it should have an apostrophe...)

Yes we'll keep it cool or as gaeilge fuaránach.

Dial Hard · 03-05-2018 11:37am

looksee wrote: »

Mod: There is a small degree of techyness creeping into the conversation - its an interesting topic, lets try and keep it civil and not too personal please. (Hmm, lets looks as though it should have an apostrophe...)

It should, it's a contraction of "let us" :pac:

GreeBo · 03-05-2018 11:52am

feargale wrote: »

You grossly underestimate the timeframe of language shift.

Its got nothing to do with language shift.

The people using "do be" today are not native Irish speakers.
The didnt learn to speak English through Irish.
The are not thinking in terms of Irish.

Hence they have no reason to use "do be" other than they heard someone else incorrectly use it.

The number of people having Irish as a first language is miniscule compared to the number of people using "do be".

feargale wrote: »

Some of them do be thinking the same about people who travel on the Dort. Be nice to them when you meet them. They control that city.

I have no idea what your point is here. I'm sure its very witty though.

Triceratops Ballet · 03-05-2018 12:07pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Its got nothing to do with language shift.

The people using "do be" today are not native Irish speakers.
The didnt learn to speak English through Irish.
The are not thinking in terms of Irish.

Hence they have no reason to use "do be" other than they heard someone else incorrectly use it.

The number of people having Irish as a first language is miniscule compared to the number of people using "do be".

People primarily learn to speak through immersion, so if I say do-be, it's probably because my parents did, which is probably because their parents did, which is probably because their parents did, and it's entirely possible that their parents spoke Irish.
Do-be may be wrong in other dialects of English, but it's completely valid in our dialect of English, and it has a sound reason for existing. I think it's nice that the English we speak has inflections of our native language and is distinct from the English spoken elsewhere.

Mearings · 03-05-2018 1:59pm

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

People primarily learn to speak through immersion, so if I say do-be, it's probably because my parents did, which is probably because their parents did, which is probably because their parents did, and it's entirely possible that their parents spoke Irish.
Do-be may be wrong in other dialects of English, but it's completely valid in our dialect of English, and it has a sound reason for existing. I think it's nice that the English we speak has inflections of our native language and is distinct from the English spoken elsewhere.

But don't use do be in a job application or an exam.

GreeBo · 03-05-2018 2:34pm

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

People primarily learn to speak through immersion, so if I say do-be, it's probably because my parents did, which is probably because their parents did, which is probably because their parents did, and it's entirely possible that their parents spoke Irish.
Do-be may be wrong in other dialects of English, but it's completely valid in our dialect of English, and it has a sound reason for existing. I think it's nice that the English we speak has inflections of our native language and is distinct from the English spoken elsewhere.

Agreed, but people are also (at least I'm assuming I wasn't unique!) being continuously corrected when they use "improper" grammar, especially at school?

I'd correct a not native English speaker if they used improper grammar, even if it had a sound basis in their native tongue.

wexie · 03-05-2018 2:39pm

I know this is probably entirely out of line for a more serious forum so apologies in advance (from a non native english speaker, maybe that gives me a little bit more slack)

but the thread caught my eye and I just can't help it....

Am I really the only one to think that the usage of 'do be' should be called Sinatra syndrome?

dr.fuzzenstein · 03-05-2018 2:42pm

Noo wrote: »

Can you give an example of how you use "do be"?

You shouldn't use it unless you are Frank Sinatra

Doo-bee-doo-bee-doo
Doo-doo-dee-dah, dah-dah-dah-dah-dah

edit: Damn you wexie!

tedpan · 03-05-2018 2:51pm

An example of a sentence,

"He enjoyed smoking a do be."

gozunda · 03-05-2018 3:21pm

Another example of a sentence.

" Dobe is a free elf"

Source: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

I'll get my coat

looksee · 03-05-2018 3:27pm

Anyone mentions Photoshop and they get a card...

feargale · 03-05-2018 3:38pm

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

People primarily learn to speak through immersion, so if I say do-be, it's probably because my parents did, which is probably because their parents did, which is probably because their parents did, and it's entirely possible that their parents spoke Irish.
Do-be may be wrong in other dialects of English, but it's completely valid in our dialect of English, and it has a sound reason for existing. I think it's nice that the English we speak has inflections of our native language and is distinct from the English spoken elsewhere.

Well said. I spent my childhood in a part of rural Ireland which was then in the process of losing the last remnants of native Irish. The English I heard was peppered with Irish words, phrases and constructions used by people whose native language was English.
Words can alter their meaning over time by usage. Some words that meant one thing to Shakespeare now mean the opposite of their original meaning. Dictionaries over time, thanks to common usage, come to acknowledge the change.
I wonder if those who find "do be" etc objectionable are equally upset by what distinguishes American English from British English, or by the idiosyncracies of the English of Australia, Jamaica, Scotland, Black America, West Africa etc..
I could maybe understand, if not the outrage, at least the disapproval if "do be" didn't fulfil a purpose, fill a gap. Otherwise it has a whiff of a national inferiority complex.

Mearings · 03-05-2018 4:33pm

wexie wrote: »

I know this is probably entirely out of line for a more serious forum so apologies in advance (from a non native english speaker, maybe that gives me a little bit more slack)

but the thread caught my eye and I just can't help it....

Am I really the only one to think that the usage of 'do be' should be called Sinatra syndrome?

"Do be" do, by all means.

gozunda · 03-05-2018 11:30pm

Interesting discussion of "do be's" here

https://stancarey.wordpress.com/2015/03/13/do-be-doing-bes-habitual-aspect-in-irish-english/

Irish English, also called Hiberno-English, can express habitual aspect in present tense by enlisting Irish (Gaelic) grammar. In Irish, tá mé (which can contract to táim) means ‘I am’, literally ‘is me’. But bíonn mé (→ bím) means ‘I (habitually) am’ – a different sense of be...

MathsManiac · 04-05-2018 10:23pm

gozunda wrote: »

Interesting discussion of "do be's" here

https://stancarey.wordpress.com/2015/03/13/do-be-doing-bes-habitual-aspect-in-irish-english/

Thanks, Gozunda. That really is a good exploration of the form. While I don't be using this grammatical structure often, I don't much like seeing this part of our heritage criticised so vociferously. This blog entry at least makes clear that users of this verb form are in some pretty good company.

"do be"

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