Did wood pellet systems never catch on?

28-09-2019 9:20am

For now we just use the electric heater, the way I look at it is like this, I get free charging in work which saves me a good 25-27 Kwh per day/night I'm on shift and charging at the Carlow Fast charger when the opportunity arises, so the way I see it is if I got for example, 12 Kwh the other day at the Carlow Fast Charger then I can run the electric heater for 6 hrs straight at 2 Kw which of course I wouldn't as the room would get too hot but there's no point having the heating on in rooms I'm not in when it's not that cold this time of the year.

If I charge up at work and work 4 shifts that's a good 104 odd Kwh which would run the heater for 52 hrs straight and that's just for one shift week, I have this shift week which started yesterday and ends Thursday morning, friday-Sunday days and Monday-Wednesday night so that would be 156 Kwh or 78 hrs of the heater on straight.

Now look at a point in time when I have 60 + Kwh of energy in the car battery and whenever there is a Vehicle-2-Grid device available for CCS cars I can power the whole house from the work electricity when I am home, average Kwh consumed by the house is about 15 Kwh per day and if I use 26 odd for driving to work that leaves me with 34 kwh , so when I am home I would save a lot on electricity .

n97 mini · 29-09-2019 9:00pm

unkel wrote: »

All of the radiators in the bedrooms in my house are permanently switched off. Who needs heat in their bedroom? Apart from the kids studying at their desk is the only exception I can think of.

On very cold nights we keep the window closed in the master bedroom, but most nights it is open too. We do have the radiators on in the bathrooms first thing in the morning before we get up

Same here, more or less, but different people prefer different things. I personally like the bedroom at about 16 degrees max. I suppose the logic is better to be looking at it that looking for it... if the guest prefers a warm room, they have it; if they prefer cold they can just open the window and let the heat out. Women tend to prefer a warmer room

(Can't leave the window open in our house though... too much life going on outside, especially at weekends when the last Nitelink passes at around 4.30am)

29-09-2019 10:08pm

Those who have upstairs bedrooms will be warmer than those of us in Bungalows

ayzeb123 · 22-02-2020 11:18pm

We have a wood pellet boiler the last 15 years. Kedco but they are gone out of business now. Has worked very well and is still working well but my husband is very handy and maintains it well. It needs to be cleaned, ash emptied and filled weekly. Some parts, the burner and sensor and feed have needed to be replaced on occasion (mostly when the cold weather hits:mad:)which he was able to do himself. The really good guy who used to service it moved to USA and we had trouble finding someone else, we eventually found someone who had to travel a bit to service it and he cost a bomb. So my husband does it himself now.
It used to be much cheaper than oil, we used to pay €600 for 3 ton of pellets but now pay €850. when the price of oil went up so did pellets but when the price of oil drops the pellets don't. We now get 1 fill a year instead of two and turn the heating off in May until September. Honestly, there are better systems out there now to consider, we are looking at changing to infrared rads soon. Still researching at this point, waiting for the boiler to go and then we want a low maintenance economical system.
We installed a thermodynamic solar panel about 4 years ago for hot water. I can honestly say this was one of the best purchases i have made. We have 24/7 hot water. No need for heating on in the summer. There was a lot of negative reviews when we were looking at this option instead of solar panels but this one single panel gives us really hot water all year round. People said it will cost a bomb in electricity but it cost us an extra €10 per month. we use it in ECO mode all year round and the water is always hot. It has almost paid for itself and will hopefully run for 20 years, no maintenance only replacement gas when needed.

23-02-2020 1:21pm

Thanks for that.

My objection to solar hot water panels is the fact my Heating is on most of the year and heats this water, this is why I have pumped only showers and not electric showers which waste the water that's already hot.

The immersion heats the water on night rate electricity for the warmer months.

10 euro's a month would heat a lot of hot water on night rate electricity.

Perhaps the solar hot water panel can be integrated to our oil heating I don't know but we don't usually have the heating on all day long so it probably wouldn't work so well unless it's on all day.

With solar PV you can use the energy for much more and can also heat the water, we can only use so much water so there's no point heating tonnes of water we can't use.

Post a link to the infrared panels you were thinking about getting, my Partners Parents got some of those some years ago in Germany and they are useless, they are ok if sitting close to them but they're nothing like having proper convection heating such as stove, radiators etc. they don't save a lot of energy in my opinion.

For infrared panels to give off enough heat you really need to get a very powerful one and you are then back to using lots of electricity/energy and probably at peak rate too.

One option you could investigate is a heliotherm heatpump that uses the well water if you happen to have a well this is the most efficient system available, for every 1 Kwh in you get 7 out and sometimes more depending on how hot it has to heat the water.

Depends on your house whether it's suitable or not, ideally I've been told that the heat pump should be sized that it's running most of the time and not cutting in and out.

It can also be used to cool if you have an upstairs and the bedrooms are hot and humid at night.

There's a few companies that install these here but I am always weary of heat pumps, how long will they last + can parts be got in 10 years+.

If your home is quite efficient then maybe an air sourced heat pump might be a better and cheaper option.

I would be looking at HP and not infrared panels, I think the HP would be a far better option.

You can also install solar PV to help run the heat pump and if we get a feed-in-tariff in the future you can send your excess energy to the grid and use this in the winter when you need to run the heating more. But we're not there yet. A small solar PV array and HP is a good combination but getting companies in Ireland that are reliable and will come out when they say is always a challenge + getting people to do the job properly is another challenge here.

One of the greatest energy savings I made was to buy an electric car, I was buying a new car anyway so chose electric, on my 2nd EV now and the savings compared to even the most efficient diesel are staggering.

air · 23-02-2020 8:29pm

ayzeb123 wrote: »

no maintenance only replacement gas when needed.

How much did the gas replacement cost & how often was it needed?
What was the up front cost of the system?

Gas isn't supposed to be consumed in refrigeration systems, if it's having to be replaced it suggests you have a leak.

I think you'll be lucky to get another 5 years from the system.

wexfordman2 · 23-02-2020 9:20pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Thanks for that.

My objection to solar hot water panels is the fact my Heating is on most of the year and heats this water, this is why I have pumped only showers and not electric showers which waste the water that's already hot.

The immersion heats the water on night rate electricity for the warmer months.

10 euro's a month would heat a lot of hot water on night rate electricity.

Perhaps the solar hot water panel can be integrated to our oil heating I don't know but we don't usually have the heating on all day long so it probably wouldn't work so well unless it's on all day.

With solar PV you can use the energy for much more and can also heat the water, we can only use so much water so there's no point heating tonnes of water we can't use.

Post a link to the infrared panels you were thinking about getting, my Partners Parents got some of those some years ago in Germany and they are useless, they are ok if sitting close to them but they're nothing like having proper convection heating such as stove, radiators etc. they don't save a lot of energy in my opinion.

For infrared panels to give off enough heat you really need to get a very powerful one and you are then back to using lots of electricity/energy and probably at peak rate too.

One option you could investigate is a heliotherm heatpump that uses the well water if you happen to have a well this is the most efficient system available, for every 1 Kwh in you get 7 out and sometimes more depending on how hot it has to heat the water.

Depends on your house whether it's suitable or not, ideally I've been told that the heat pump should be sized that it's running most of the time and not cutting in and out.

It can also be used to cool if you have an upstairs and the bedrooms are hot and humid at night.

There's a few companies that install these here but I am always weary of heat pumps, how long will they last + can parts be got in 10 years+.

If your home is quite efficient then maybe an air sourced heat pump might be a better and cheaper option.

I would be looking at HP and not infrared panels, I think the HP would be a far better option.

You can also install solar PV to help run the heat pump and if we get a feed-in-tariff in the future you can send your excess energy to the grid and use this in the winter when you need to run the heating more. But we're not there yet. A small solar PV array and HP is a good combination but getting companies in Ireland that are reliable and will come out when they say is always a challenge + getting people to do the job properly is another challenge here.

One of the greatest energy savings I made was to buy an electric car, I was buying a new car anyway so chose electric, on my 2nd EV now and the savings compared to even the most efficient diesel are staggering.

Solar pv to run a heat pump ?

So, a solar pv system, required to run a heat pump during winter months when heat demand is highest, and pv generation is lowest ?

Bearing in mind 6kw solar is the max you can install, how.well.will.such a system perform in running a heat pump in the dead of winter ?

24-02-2020 3:59pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Solar pv to run a heat pump ?

So, a solar pv system, required to run a heat pump during winter months when heat demand is highest, and pv generation is lowest ?

Bearing in mind 6kw solar is the max you can install, how.well.will.such a system perform in running a heat pump in the dead of winter ?

No, a solar PV system isn't required to run a heat pump but a solar PV install can go a long way to meeting some of the whole house electricity demands throughout the year.

Anything over I think 4 Kw/p and the Government force us to install a battery adding to the cost but what we really need is a feed-in-tariff because while a battery sounds good it has one problem, you can only store so much and in Summer you will have a lot more than you can use or the battery can store unless your solar array is pretty small.

Pretty much the same with solar hot water panels, great if you have a swimming pool but if you're an average family I can't see huge savings if you got a few hundred of litres of water you can't use you're better off having a solar PV array because at least that can go towards the electricity requirements of the whole house.

A heat pump is a good option if your house is well insulated but if not it has to run more but from what I gather and I am not an expert in heat pumps it's seemingly better to have the hp on all the time rather than cycling on and off.

For my house that is not an A rated airtight house I would simply have to get a HP with a larger output that will cost more to run and solar PV will go a long way towards running this HP even in winter when there is less sun.

Ideally we should have a feed-in-tariff which would mean we sell the excess to the grid in the warmer brighter months and buy it back in Winter when we need it, this is using solar PV to it's max potential but instead tax payer money goes towards paying for an underused M4 motorway, millions in fact + public money goes to paying wind energy companies money when turbines have to be turned off or when the wind doesn't blow. But what do we get ? increased carbon taxed and PSO levy.

I would say for now, regardless of whether or not you have a heat pump it's better to install a small solar PV array if you can use as much of this energy as possible.

StonedRaider · 25-02-2020 6:13pm

Keeping an eye on this thread as I'll be starting to get a 25year old, 1500 sq ft house more eco friendly.
Talking to a few local companies and it seems the HP route is quite expensive on older properties as the ber rating has to be up to at least a B3?

The oil boiler is on its last legs, so looking at options.

Open fireplace needs to go, so does a solid fuel stove as we're done messing around with logs/coal.
Pellet stove is tempting us to try it out price pending.

Thermodynamic solar panels are looking good, but does not qualify for the SEAI grant and cost circa €5k to purchase and install.

Will also get a quote for solar pv panels, but as mad lad has said, it's been quite a chore trying to get them to come out and get the place surveyed for an estimate.

If there's anyone that has contacts with good, reliable and honest tradesmen based in Galway, do fire us a pm

KCross · 25-02-2020 6:21pm

StonedRaider wrote: »

Open fireplace needs to go, so does a solid fuel stove as we're done messing around with logs/coal.
Pellet stove is tempting us to try it out price pending.

If you are done with logs/coal wouldnt you also be done with a pellet stove that requires regular cleaning/maintenance and refueling?

I never really seriously considered the idea of wood pellets when I was making that decision. I always figured it was pushing myself into a corner where I'd have to buy a relatively niche product from a small set of suppliers who would inevitably jack the price as soon as they could and @ayzeb123's post seems to confirm that with the price going from €600 to €850.... thats a tad more than inflation!

When you get a price on your pellet stove system add in 20 years of pellets and then put that side by side with the cost of a heat pump and see where you stand, bearing in mind that a heap pump requires very little maintenance and is 100% automated in its operation so put a value on your time as well.... you'll be dreaming about pellets if you go with the pellet stove!

StonedRaider · 25-02-2020 6:37pm

KCross wrote: »

If you are done with logs/coal wouldnt you also be done with a pellet stove that requires regular cleaning/maintenance and refueling?

I never really seriously considered the idea of wood pellets when I was making that decision. I always figured it was pushing myself into a corner where I'd have to buy a relatively niche product from a small set of suppliers who would inevitably jack the price as soon as they could and @ayzeb123's post seems to confirm that with the price going from €600 to €850.... thats a tad more than inflation!

When you get a price on your pellet stove system add in 20 years of pellets and then put that side by side with the cost of a heat pump and see where you stand, bearing in mind that a heap pump requires very little maintenance and is 100% automated in its operation so put a value on your time as well.... you'll be dreaming about pellets if you go with the pellet stove!

Neighbour has a wood pellet stove since late 2015 and it's just that little bit easier and cleaner to maintain/store compared to coals and logs. 10kg bag @€;3.50 each loose(€350/ton). 15kg bag @€;5 each loose(€333/ton). Slightly cheaper by the ton pallet. That's EN plus A2 standard quality pellets. Prices hasn't increased the past 4 years and no carbon tax.
Running at circa 88% efficiency. Compared to our solid fuel stove at circa 65%

4.5kw pellet stove coming in at €1900 to purchase and install.
Heat pump circa €10000 after SEAI grant.
We are looking at long term 15-20years so very open to options.

I guess with the carbon tax due to be increased gradually, we will slowly be priced out of home heating oil and solid fuels

wexfordman2 · 25-02-2020 7:06pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, a solar PV system isn't required to run a heat pump but a solar PV install can go a long way to meeting some of the whole house electricity demands throughout the year.

Anything over I think 4 Kw/p and the Government force us to install a battery adding to the cost but what we really need is a feed-in-tariff because while a battery sounds good it has one problem, you can only store so much and in Summer you will have a lot more than you can use or the battery can store unless your solar array is pretty small.

Pretty much the same with solar hot water panels, great if you have a swimming pool but if you're an average family I can't see huge savings if you got a few hundred of litres of water you can't use you're better off having a solar PV array because at least that can go towards the electricity requirements of the whole house.

A heat pump is a good option if your house is well insulated but if not it has to run more but from what I gather and I am not an expert in heat pumps it's seemingly better to have the hp on all the time rather than cycling on and off.

For my house that is not an A rated airtight house I would simply have to get a HP with a larger output that will cost more to run and solar PV will go a long way towards running this HP even in winter when there is less sun.

Ideally we should have a feed-in-tariff which would mean we sell the excess to the grid in the warmer brighter months and buy it back in Winter when we need it, this is using solar PV to it's max potential but instead tax payer money goes towards paying for an underused M4 motorway, millions in fact + public money goes to paying wind energy companies money when turbines have to be turned off or when the wind doesn't blow. But what do we get ? increased carbon taxed and PSO levy.

I would say for now, regardless of whether or not you have a heat pump it's better to install a small solar PV array if you can use as much of this energy as possible.

I didn't say solar pv was required to run a heat pump. I said that if you were planning on using solar pv to run a heat pump, then you are planning to use a source which would be at it's lowest production period (solar pv), during a period when the demand for heat is highest (winter).

The winter generation figures for solar pv, will give you feck all toward the running cost of a heat pump during winter months.

Also, there is no level where you are forced to install a battery with a pv system. If you were installing under the old grant system, and you went over 2kwp (not 4kwp), then in order to get additional grantz they required a battery, but there was or is no requirement to install a battery.

ayzeb123 · 25-02-2020 9:24pm

We were within warranty of two years so we didn't have to pay but the guy said it would be €250 if we neede again. There was a leak a nut wasn't tight enough. We have it 5 years now and have had no issues with it since. It cost €4200 all in with a new solar large solar tank in the hotpress. We saved 850 a year on pellets as we used to get 6 ton a year and now only get 3 ton. It really is great to not have to heating on to heat the water and this also feeds into the heating system in winter to take pressure off the wood pellet boiler as the water is already always hot. This thernodynamic panel works as well in winter as it does in summer. Great investment.

air wrote: »

How much did the gas replacement cost & how often was it needed?
What was the up front cost of the system?

Gas isn't supposed to be consumed in refrigeration systems, if it's having to be replaced it suggests you have a leak.

I think you'll be lucky to get another 5 years from the system.

ayzeb123 · 25-02-2020 9:35pm

Thanks Mad Lad, I've done a bit more research on the infrared rads and gone off the idea now. I have looked into the HP option but come to the conclusion that it would only work really well with ufh which we don't have and the cost involved for a deep retrofit is way too high. When the wood pellet boiler goes i think we are going to go Gas. At this point we want a system that we don't have to fill or clean out and this seems the best option for us now. Putting in cavity wall insulation and more in the attic. This is far more cost effective and less disruption for our needs. Thanks for all the input, this thread is better than what you get from the Sales reps. Good honest info.

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks for that.

My objection to solar hot water panels is the fact my Heating is on most of the year and heats this water, this is why I have pumped only showers and not electric showers which waste the water that's already hot.

The immersion heats the water on night rate electricity for the warmer months.

10 euro's a month would heat a lot of hot water on night rate electricity.

Perhaps the solar hot water panel can be integrated to our oil heating I don't know but we don't usually have the heating on all day long so it probably wouldn't work so well unless it's on all day.

With solar PV you can use the energy for much more and can also heat the water, we can only use so much water so there's no point heating tonnes of water we can't use.

Post a link to the infrared panels you were thinking about getting, my Partners Parents got some of those some years ago in Germany and they are useless, they are ok if sitting close to them but they're nothing like having proper convection heating such as stove, radiators etc. they don't save a lot of energy in my opinion.

For infrared panels to give off enough heat you really need to get a very powerful one and you are then back to using lots of electricity/energy and probably at peak rate too.

One option you could investigate is a heliotherm heatpump that uses the well water if you happen to have a well this is the most efficient system available, for every 1 Kwh in you get 7 out and sometimes more depending on how hot it has to heat the water.

Depends on your house whether it's suitable or not, ideally I've been told that the heat pump should be sized that it's running most of the time and not cutting in and out.

It can also be used to cool if you have an upstairs and the bedrooms are hot and humid at night.

There's a few companies that install these here but I am always weary of heat pumps, how long will they last + can parts be got in 10 years+.

If your home is quite efficient then maybe an air sourced heat pump might be a better and cheaper option.

I would be looking at HP and not infrared panels, I think the HP would be a far better option.

You can also install solar PV to help run the heat pump and if we get a feed-in-tariff in the future you can send your excess energy to the grid and use this in the winter when you need to run the heating more. But we're not there yet. A small solar PV array and HP is a good combination but getting companies in Ireland that are reliable and will come out when they say is always a challenge + getting people to do the job properly is another challenge here.

One of the greatest energy savings I made was to buy an electric car, I was buying a new car anyway so chose electric, on my 2nd EV now and the savings compared to even the most efficient diesel are staggering.

25-02-2020 9:37pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I didn't say solar pv was required to run a heat pump. I said that if you were planning on using solar pv to run a heat pump, then you are planning to use a source which would be at it's lowest production period (solar pv), during a period when the demand for heat is highest (winter).

The winter generation figures for solar pv, will give you feck all toward the running cost of a heat pump during winter months.

Also, there is no level where you are forced to install a battery with a pv system. If you were installing under the old grant system, and you went over 2kwp (not 4kwp), then in order to get additional grantz they required a battery, but there was or is no requirement to install a battery.

Of course solar PV production would be at it's lowest in Winter, but not 0 and if you have a solar PV install it would contribute to the pump + in Summer some HP can run as air conditioners when solar PV is at it's max.

Solar PV however does produce energy in Winter.

I just read the SAEI update and you're correct I read it wrong, I had thought that if you go for 4 Kq/p that you had to get a battery.

A feed-In-tariff would be great because then any excess sent to the grid can be used when needed, for instance, lots of excess in summer used in Winter for heat pump etc.

Still better to have some solar PV is someone was to install such a system then none at all.

ednwireland · 25-02-2020 9:44pm

have an enviro mini, 8kw

basically used for space heating hoover out the inside occasionally, few bags of pellets over the winter

had it about 10 years got it with the sei grant

wexfordman2 · 25-02-2020 10:13pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Of course solar PV production would be at it's lowest in Winter, but not 0 and if you have a solar PV install it would contribute to the pump + in Summer some HP can run as air conditioners when solar PV is at it's max.

Solar PV however does produce energy in Winter.

I just read the SAEI update and you're correct I read it wrong, I had thought that if you go for 4 Kq/p that you had to get a battery.

A feed-In-tariff would be great because then any excess sent to the grid can be used when needed, for instance, lots of excess in summer used in Winter for heat pump etc.

Still better to have some solar PV is someone was to install such a system then none at all.

You cannot use as any means or justifcatiin the use of solar pv as an offset against the cost of runing a heat pump.

I don't know how much a typical heat pump consumes, but I can tell you that during winter months, when demand is most, a 6kwp south facing solar pv system (6kwp is the absolute maximum you can put in a single phase residential building) you would be doing very well to generate more an average of 5kwh per day.
That 5kwh will be taken or used mostly by the base load of a house, never mind additional use.

That 5kwh of power equates to about 80c savings per day based on 0.17c per kwh, which as I said would be consumed by the houses normal base load and usage anyway.

That cannot and should never be used as a justifcatiin for offsetting the cost of running a heat pump (or any other heating system to be honest ).

With regards excess generation during the summer, being exported and getting it back later in the year to power your heat pump, well, if you consider a FIT paying you 5c per kwh and buying it back at 0.17c per kwh, then that pretty much Kills that argument.

Air conditioning during the summer ? Seriously ?

Don't get me wrong, I am not dismissing the value of each (pv and heatpump), I have a large pv system myself (6kwp), and I would like to have a heatpump, but in now way can the 2 be argued as offsetting each other or complimentary.

I have no doubt that both systems can justify themselves in their own merit, but to merge the two as some sort of combines solution where the pv generation will in any meaningful way contribute towards the running cost of a heatpump is just plain wrong .

25-02-2020 10:19pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

You cannot use as any means or justifcatiin the use of solar pv as an offset against the cost of runing a heat pump.

I don't know how much a typical heat pump consumes, but I can tell you that during winter months, when demand is most, a 6kwp south facing solar pv system (6kwp is the absolute maximum you can put in a single phase residential building) you would be doing very well to generate more an average of 5kwh per day.
That 5kwh will be taken or used mostly by the base load of a house, never mind additional use.

That 5kwh of power equates to about 80c savings per day based on 0.17c per kwh, which as I said would be consumed by the houses normal base load and usage anyway.

That cannot and should never be used as a justifcatiin for offsetting the cost of a heat pump.

With regards excess generation during the summer, being exported and getting it back later in the year to power your heat pump, well, if you consider a FIT paying you 5c per kwh and buying it back at 0.17c per kwh, then that pretty much Kills that argument.

Air conditioning during the summer ? Seriously ?

Don't get me wrong, I am not dismissing the value of each (pv and heatpump), I have a large pv system myself (6kwp), and I would like to have a heatpump, but in now way can the 2 be argued as offsetting each other or complimentary.

I have no doubt that both systems can justify themselves in their own merit, but to merge the two as some sort of combines solution where the pv generation will in any meaningful way contribute towards the running cost of a heatpump is just plain wrong .

There are people installing solar PV to help offset the cost of powering their homes, nothing wrong with that.

No one knows what FIT would be offered and remember, there are a lot of People, myself that have Night rate electricity @7.4 C/ Kwh.

I got it for the electric car which as I said is the single greatest energy saving move I could have made.

wexfordman2 · 25-02-2020 10:31pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There are people installing solar PV to help offset the cost of powering their homes, nothing wrong with that.

No one knows what FIT would be offered and remember, there are a lot of People, myself that have Night rate electricity @7.4 C/ Kwh.

I got it for the electric car which as I said is the single greatest energy saving move I could have made.

I never said there was anything wrong with installing pv to offset running costs of a home, it's absolutely a great idea, and I have done it myself, and I would recommend it to anyone who can.

However, if the intention is or was, as you posted earlier which I disputed, is to offset the cost of running a heatpump, then they are being misled and mis informed, and seriously so.

If they got it for offsetting the cost of a heatpump, I honestly believe they were misled and badly informed. I am telling you that an absolutely maximised solar pv system will have negligable to zero impact on the running cost of a heatpump. It quite simply will not produce enough power to give any meaningful contribution, and what it does generate will be used by the base load of the house and every day use.

I can tell you this, and I can gaurantee this, I have a maximised pv system myself, and during the depths of winter, I may on some days get an excess amount that will heat my immersion, but absolutely not enough to run a heatpump .

Again, both systems stand on their own merits, they don't need each other to justify themselves, but I can't stress this any stronger, if someone came to my door and tried to sell me both and even hinted that the pv would help towards the running cost of the heatpump, he would very deservedly be booted out my front door for the cowboy that he is, trying to sell me the equivelant of perpetual motion.

unkel · 26-02-2020 12:08pm

Those slick salesmen of that active company with an 8 in their name are removing your address from their visit list already, wexfordman

mrjohntobin · 26-02-2020 11:49pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I never said there was anything wrong with installing pv to offset running costs of a home, it's absolutely a great idea, and I have done it myself, and I would recommend it to anyone who can.

However, if the intention is or was, as you posted earlier which I disputed, is to offset the cost of running a heatpump, then they are being misled and mis informed, and seriously so.

If they got it for offsetting the cost of a heatpump, I honestly believe they were misled and badly informed. I am telling you that an absolutely maximised solar pv system will have negligable to zero impact on the running cost of a heatpump. It quite simply will not produce enough power to give any meaningful contribution, and what it does generate will be used by the base load of the house and every day use.

I can tell you this, and I can gaurantee this, I have a maximised pv system myself, and during the depths of winter, I may on some days get an excess amount that will heat my immersion, but absolutely not enough to run a heatpump .

Again, both systems stand on their own merits, they don't need each other to justify themselves, but I can't stress this any stronger, if someone came to my door and tried to sell me both and even hinted that the pv would help towards the running cost of the heatpump, he would very deservedly be booted out my front door for the cowboy that he is, trying to sell me the equivelant of perpetual motion.

I think the distinction you're making between heat pump and base load is splitting hairs. Solar PV will reduce your electricity bill by the same amount whether you attribute the savings to base load or heat pump.

The more useful question for the OP to ask is whether solar PV is cost effective for them. There are plenty of posts that will help them figure that out.

wexfordman2 · 27-02-2020 12:37am

mrjohntobin wrote: »

I think the distinction you're making between heat pump and base load is splitting hairs. Solar PV will reduce your electricity bill by the same amount whether you attribute the savings to base load or heat pump.

The more useful question for the OP to ask is whether solar PV is cost effective for them. There are plenty of posts that will help them figure that out.

Your second paragraph, I 100% agree with.

Your first paragraph, no it is not splitting hairs, if you take it in context of the overall conversation, and what I was specificly trying to address.

That is, in no circumstances whatsoever can solar pv be promoted or sold as a system which could be used to offset the running cost of a heat pump. No one.with any conscience could try and sell you that line, and run a mile from any salesperson that does.

ercork · 02-03-2020 11:07am

ayzeb123 wrote: »

Thanks Mad Lad, I've done a bit more research on the infrared rads and gone off the idea now. I have looked into the HP option but come to the conclusion that it would only work really well with ufh which we don't have and the cost involved for a deep retrofit is way too high. When the wood pellet boiler goes i think we are going to go Gas. At this point we want a system that we don't have to fill or clean out and this seems the best option for us now. Putting in cavity wall insulation and more in the attic. This is far more cost effective and less disruption for our needs. Thanks for all the input, this thread is better than what you get from the Sales reps. Good honest info.

Have a look at air to air heat pumps. These are cheap to install (relative to air to water) and the running costs should be cheaper than gas. They don't provide hot water but you don't need that it seems.

02-03-2020 11:14am

A2W are cheaper to install and less efficient particularly when the temps get low.

You'd need to know the efficiency at lower temps.

Cop usually 4:1 but at what range of temps ?

Good for retrofits ?

Cheaper than gas ?

Need very well insulated air tight home ?

I was looking aw W2W as retrofit using out well, cop of 6:1 but I was told this could be higher depending on how hot I need the radiators because we have lots of Radiators I was told this is better but they would need to be changed. But a much more efficient especially at low temps.

Getting a company to come out to see if it's practical or not is a problem but the best Heat Pumps seem to be Heliotherm.

listermint · 02-03-2020 11:31am

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Your second paragraph, I 100% agree with.

Your first paragraph, no it is not splitting hairs, if you take it in context of the overall conversation, and what I was specificly trying to address.

That is, in no circumstances whatsoever can solar pv be promoted or sold as a system which could be used to offset the running cost of a heat pump. No one.with any conscience could try and sell you that line, and run a mile from any salesperson that does.

Tbf isn't it badly worded?

As in , no it's not going to offset the load of the heat pump. But it removes the usage of overall load on the house. And ultimately over time with age when pv has paid itself off it eats into costs of the heat pump.

The debate would really be around the costs saved. But the load is removed you yourself said the base load of the house is used by the PV. But without pv that baseload is added to your overall load with the heat pump

D13exile · 02-03-2020 11:42am

To answer the OP......which was a long time ago now!!,

I had two wood pellet burners installed in my new build in 2007, one to run the central heating and one was a room heater. To cut a long story short, they were absolute shi1te!!!!!. The central heating one "might" and I emphasise might, turn on 1 in every 20 attempts. So we got very used to waking up to a freezing house. When it did light, the radiators took about four hours to get up to what can best be described as warm but not hot. The room heater also took ages to light and when it did, it often as not went out again. The service guy was almost a family member at one point as he was visiting so often. After two years of that messing about, I had a condensing oil burner put in and the two wood pellet stoves became useless ornaments. I tried to sell them but got no takers.

My current house had a new condensing gas burner put in when I moved into it. Very cheap and efficient to run. I've insulated the house to the nth degree, and my average gas bill is just €30 per month. I thought about getting solar for water heating but my house is east west facing and the three companies I got out said it wouldn't work on my roof space.

02-03-2020 11:44am

The solar calculators show that solar generation over a year in Ireland not insignificant, obviously not as good as spain but quite significant however, the big issue is no FIT, so all the energy sent to the grid or not used by the house is wasted, this is the real issue with solar PV currently. The other real issue is the 5.5 Kw max allowed when connected to the grid unless this has changed ?

Solar calculator shows for Ireland with a 4 Kw/p you could generate 3,300 Kwh a year which is not something to sniff at, provided all the energy can be used.

A FIT would allow to buy this excess in the warmer brighter months to be bought back in Winter.

In Ireland when will we see a FIT ? how much would you expect for FIT per Kwh, if you could get at least the night rate this would be real progress and make Solar PV more than viable.

The same solar calculator and the same 4 Kw/p array in Spain would generate around 5,200 Kwh a year.

wexfordman2 · 02-03-2020 12:57pm

listermint wrote: »

Tbf isn't it badly worded?

As in , no it's not going to offset the load of the heat pump. But it removes the usage of overall load on the house. And ultimately over time with age when pv has paid itself off it eats into costs of the heat pump.

The debate would really be around the costs saved. But the load is removed you yourself said the base load of the house is used by the PV. But without pv that baseload is added to your overall load with the heat pump

The only thing that is badly worded, is when heat pump and solar pv are.put together in the same sentence.

With no heat pump, during the winter months, your solar will cover your base load , and sometimes some level of excess and may heat some water occassionaly .

With a heat pump,.your solar will.do the exact same thing, except your load will be higher as the heat pump is running. The pv will have little to no impact on the additional power required by the heat pump.

I really don't get how it is any more complicated than that. I don't get how people don't understand that a maximised solar pv install, during winter months will generate an average of 4 or 5kwh a day, which is about as much as the base load of the house would be. So how can that help contribute towards the additional load of a heat pump which would be running at it's maximum at that point ?

I'm pretty much done on this conversation at this point, if people wish to beleive otherwise, then that is up to them.

Heat pumps and pv undoubtedly stand on their own merits, but I cannot see how one can benefit the other in any meaningful way. Selling it as such is dishonest in my opinion.

listermint · 02-03-2020 1:35pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

The only thing that is badly worded, is when heat pump and solar pv are.put together in the same sentence.

With no heat pump, during the winter months, your solar will cover your base load , and sometimes some level of excess and may heat some water occassionaly .

With a heat pump,.your solar will.do the exact same thing, except your load will be higher as the heat pump is running. The pv will have little to no impact on the additional power required by the heat pump.

I really don't get how it is any more complicated than that. I don't get how people don't understand that a maximised solar pv install, during winter months will generate an average of 4 or 5kwh a day, which is about as much as the base load of the house would be. So how can that help contribute towards the additional load of a heat pump which would be running at it's maximum at that point ?

I'm pretty much done on this conversation at this point, if people wish to beleive otherwise, then that is up to them.

Heat pumps and pv undoubtedly stand on their own merits, but I cannot see how one can benefit the other in any meaningful way. Selling it as such is dishonest in my opinion.

its not complicated. as per your second parahgraph in winter your solar covers your baseload which means baseload is removed. and you just have the heat pump. So essentially the solar covers some of your load versus none of it at all.

Coltrane · 02-03-2020 1:43pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

The only thing that is badly worded, is when heat pump and solar pv are.put together in the same sentence.

With no heat pump, during the winter months, your solar will cover your base load , and sometimes some level of excess and may heat some water occassionaly .

With a heat pump, your solar will.do the exact same thing, except your load will be higher as the heat pump is running. The pv will have little to no impact on the additional power required by the heat pump.

I really don't get how it is any more complicated than that. I don't get how people don't understand that a maximised solar pv install, during winter months will generate an average of 4 or 5kwh a day, which is about as much as the base load of the house would be. So how can that help contribute towards the additional load of a heat pump which would be running at it's maximum at that point ?

I'm pretty much done on this conversation at this point, if people wish to beleive otherwise, then that is up to them.

Heat pumps and pv undoubtedly stand on their own merits, but I cannot see how one can benefit the other in any meaningful way. Selling it as such is dishonest in my opinion.

Only seeing this thread now but just wanted to chip in my own experience with PV and an A2W, which is that they are (a) expensive but (b) comfortable and (c) environmentally beneficial. As of today the capital cost of an A2W seems to me to be so much higher than a gas boiler that I'll never recoup the difference in saved heating costs. But, the operating costs of the A2W are lower than gas so that it's affordable to heat the house constantly, bringing a completely different living experience compared to the too hot/too cold days of gas that I had. Environmentally the issue is that the grid still has a high carbon footprint. Enter solar PV, which in my calcs has very longterm payback economically but much faster payback if saved environmental damage is factored, even allowing for the dirty footprint of the panels. So, I'm happy to pay whatever I can for solar to power the A2W to the greatest extent possible. We're I think at the point of efficiency of PV where they can make a good contribution. Today, right throughout this morning my PV has powered my A2W and charged my car. This will become commonplace from circa mid March until say early November.

It of course will depend totally on the heating requirement of your house and the size of your PV-array as to which part of your A2W's power requirement your array will feed. But in principle if you want to run an A2W as cleanly as poss, a large PV-array seems a good idea to me. You won't have the same synergy with gas heating and PV, but then again, you'll still export clean energy and make that contribution.

My biggest concern with PV is storm damage. With a storm seemingly every few weeks now, I do worry about the lift from them. But I'm no engineer and have seen no examples of them actually lifting off!

Did wood pellet systems never catch on?

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