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Long term WFH and impact on property
Comments
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Ray Palmer wrote: »People are acting like WFH is perfect and everyone wants to do it and will love to be in the countryside instead of a city.
There are lots of studies on it and people tend to put on weight along with feeling isolated. Fine for some but not everyone. Personally I don't want to spend all my time with my wife all day everyday even if it means just being in the same building. We both are in a lot of meetings so wouldn't be able to be in the same room. So that is 2 office spaces needed in the house. Also confidential information is an issue. Companies have relax data concerns but before many staff were denied remote access and likely to come back up.
My elderly relatives live in Dublin and relied heavily on us and still are. As with decentralisation plans this is a huge issue. They tried to insist people move away from family and friends. In some cases suggesting sources move to different parts of the country.
I personally like having a separate place that is home and not work. For years I refused remote access because I would be asked to logon at all hours.
Some will take it but you will need a larger house to work from home and never get away from work. I think people are wishing a shake up for what they feel should change.
Open plan offices and office space are going to change. So don't assume that companies are just going to get rid of them.
I think it’s hard to argue that the WFH advantages don’t far outweigh the disadvantages. Like how can say cutting two hours commuting out of your day not be a massive advantage for anyone even if it’s only 2 or 3 days a week. Being able to live where you want is also massive imo, an awful lot of people want to live where they have grown up close to family etc and not in a big city being able to WFH a good percentage of the time enables this massively as even if you have to go in 1/2 days a long commute isn’t a big deal.
I think as others have described a situation of only going into the office/work when needed is the best outcome. For some this could mean close to 100% work from home for others 50% depending on many factors but going into the office to spend a day working at the computer should be something done less and less with going in for a stack of meetings or if you have hands on stuff to do on designated days being a far better approach.
I also don’t really get this never getting away from work thing I see some people mention. Regardless of where we are working nowadays, certainly in my area of work you are always only an email app away from checking up on things at work. When I work from home I work my normal day, maybe a little longer as I don’t have commute time. I walk out and close the door of the office and that’s it, if I’m back in the home office again later in the evening, or go in to check stuff or on a weekend I’m doing it as it’s necessary and I’d either be in there after getting home from work or Id have stayed in the office so in reality it makes no difference really in fact it’s better as again you cut the commute so maybe that extra 30 to 60 mins might be enough to finish up something you would have to do on getting home or staying back late to do.0 -
Niko White Spruce wrote: »I think it’s hard to argue that the WFH advantages don’t far outweigh the disadvantages. Like how can say cutting two hours commuting out of your day not be a massive advantage for anyone even if it’s only 2 or 3 days a week. Being able to live where you want is also massive imo, an awful lot of people want to live where they have grown up close to family etc and not in a big city being able to WFH a good percentage of the time enables this massively as even if you have to go in 1/2 days a long commute isn’t a big deal.
I think as others have described a situation of only going into the office/work when needed is the best outcome. For some this could mean close to 100% work from home for others 50% depending on many factors but going into the office to spend a day working at the computer should be something done less and less with going in for a stack of meetings or if you have hands on stuff to do on designated days being a far better approach.
I also don’t really get this never getting away from work thing I see some people mention. Regardless of where we are working nowadays, certainly in my area of work you are always only an email app away from checking up on things at work. When I work from home I work my normal day, maybe a little longer as I don’t have commute time. I walk out and close the door of the office and that’s it, if I’m back in the home office again later in the evening, or go in to check stuff or on a weekend I’m doing it as it’s necessary and I’d either be in there after getting home from work or Id have stayed in the office so in reality it makes no difference really in fact it’s better as again you cut the commute so maybe that extra 30 to 60 mins might be enough to finish up something you would have to do on getting home or staying back late to do.
You're assuming your job will always be there. Hint: it may not.
Then you may need to take another job that requires you to be physically onsite and you are left commuting from your massive house with its massive empty office for hours every day because beside you is nothing but fields.
To counter the shift in jobs moving abroad, Ireland needs to really drive into attracting manufacturing again. Even producing PPE by high-tech automation.
That will require technicians and workers to be on-site0 -
Working from home will be the new norm for a huge amount of office jobs. Anyone who can't see that coming has their head in the sand because it benefits both employer and employee.
I know I would gladly take a 10/15k (even more?) pay cut for a job which allows me to work from home 5 days a week. After taxes, commuting costs, it just isn't worth the hassle. Not only will a lot of companies allow for it, they'll be forced to do it because they will just lose their staff. Would you rather a 50k job that allows you to work from a new 4 bed house in Wexford? Or an 85k job that requires you to commute 2 hours a day from a crappy old 3 bed semi in some dodgy part of Dublin. No brainer for me. Wexford all the way.0 -
Fred Cryton wrote: »Did you ever ask yourself why most employers block things like Twitter and Facebook in the office? it's because they want the full attention of the people they are paying to be there. They'll never get that if they let them wfh.
Did you ever ask yourself if people might have access to things like Twitter and Facebook in the office through another device, I dunno, maybe a mobile phone? A slacker in the office will be a slacker at home!0 -
I see Facebook will allow up to 50% to work from home permanently but those who do it will take pay and benefit cuts.
Article on sky news. Only mentions Silicon Valley so not sure if it’s specific to there or not.
Pay would be adjusted to the top end of your local market. I would guess it’s not this simple as that would be a serious cut for some areas.0 -
Working from home will be the new norm for a huge amount of office jobs. Anyone who can't see that coming has their head in the sand because it benefits both employer and employee.
I know I would gladly take a 10/15k (even more?) pay cut for a job which allows me to work from home 5 days a week. After taxes, commuting costs, it just isn't worth the hassle. Not only will a lot of companies allow for it, they'll be forced to do it because they will just lose their staff. Would you rather a 50k job that allows you to work from a new 4 bed house in Wexford? Or an 85k job that requires you to commute 2 hours a day from a crappy old 3 bed semi in some dodgy part of Dublin. No brainer for me. Wexford all the way.
That's a bit of a circular argument tbf.
If companies aren't allowing it, then where are they losing their staff to?0 -
Working from home will be the new norm for a huge amount of office jobs. Anyone who can't see that coming has their head in the sand because it benefits both employer and employee.
I know I would gladly take a 10/15k (even more?) pay cut for a job which allows me to work from home 5 days a week. After taxes, commuting costs, it just isn't worth the hassle. Not only will a lot of companies allow for it, they'll be forced to do it because they will just lose their staff. Would you rather a 50k job that allows you to work from a new 4 bed house in Wexford? Or an 85k job that requires you to commute 2 hours a day from a crappy old 3 bed semi in some dodgy part of Dublin. No brainer for me. Wexford all the way.
I’m sorry if this has been asked previously on the thread, but if WFH becomes more and more the norm for tech businesses, why would the employer restrict recruitment to the domestic market? Surely if there is no physical need for the employee to attend a particular location, job advertisements would be open anyone, anywhere who meets the required qualifications/experience? So now domestic applicants or even those already in employment are in competition with people in much lower cost economies.0 -
The discussion in the 2020 thread was getting OT for that thread but it is nonetheless a valid topic in the context of the impact it will have on property in generally.
Personally I believe WFH is here to stay in a meaningful way, and Covid has just accelerated what was likely to be a long term trend.
An IBEC survey shows some support for it amongst employees:
There are those who argue that it's just a flash in the pan because lots of employees like the human contact, office banter, structure, routine etc.
However this is ignoring a key factor - what do the employers want? It will be the employers who are the long term drivers of the trend and the fact that IBEC have commissioned this survey is interesting in itself.
It is true that is not for everybody - some people need more management than others and are more productive in an office environment.
But the result of that will simply be that employers will place a premium in future on employees who have the necessary skillset to work remotely and reliably.
If this comes to pass it will profoundly impact the market nationally, because less people will be willing to pay the premium for Dublin, particularly those with children.
One hears argument that Dublin will always win out irrespective of job location because of the sheer wealth of amenities it offers compared to the rest of the country.
This is true if all other things are equal, but currently they're not equal in that you have to pay a hell of lot extra for those amenities.
Inevitably that gap will fall, both in rents and purchase prices.
I am not suggesting that hordes of people are going to suddenly leave Dublin in the short term.
Just that a small % of those who are currently renting or thinking of buying Dublin will question if a) they absolutely have to be in Dublin and b) if they don't, is it worth paying the premium?
In the medium term I think it is inevitable that this % will increase until such time that the premium is believed to be worth it and then the gap will level off.
In the long term I think it will lead to a problem of oversupply of family homes in Dublin that will rebase prices nationally.
Amenities will follow people too, so we will over time, have a less concentrated set of amenities in Dublin, more clusters of amenities all over the country.0 -
I’m sorry if this has been asked previously on the thread, but if WFH becomes more and more the norm for tech businesses, why would the employer restrict recruitment to the domestic market? Surely if there is no physical need for the employee to attend a particular location, job advertisements would be open anyone, anywhere who meets the required qualifications/experience? So now domestic applicants or even those already in employment are in competition with people in much lower cost economies.
Tax reasons, you cannot work from home from another country. Although if you work 5 days a week from home, would be a pain to enforce maybe?0 -
Tax reasons, you cannot work from home from another country. Although if you work 5 days a week from home, would be a pain to enforce maybe?
of course you can, in scenarios where the company already has office in that country, some companies may be creative about taxation. it has a cost - if it is worth it for a global workforce - i don't know.
for example, was wondering if in a way it is similar with taxation policies when the company sends someone to work abroad - think how complicated is the taxation for executives ...I see Facebook will allow up to 50% to work from home permanently but those who do it will take pay and benefit cuts.
Article on sky news. Only mentions Silicon Valley so not sure if it’s specific to there or not.
Pay would be adjusted to the top end of your local market. I would guess it’s not this simple as that would be a serious cut for some areas.
interesting, one to watch out.
but this is possibly taking back the top-up they had to give due to geographical location ? maybe it makes sense ...0 -
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of course you can, in scenarios where the company already has office in that country, some companies may be creative about taxation. it has a cost - if it is worth it for a global workforce - i don't know.
for example, was wondering if in a way it is similar with taxation policies when the company sends someone to work abroad - think how complicated is the taxation for executives ...
interesting, one to watch out.
but this is possibly taking back the top-up they had to give due to geographical location ? maybe it makes sense ...
Yes, it essentially is saying you aren't getting a silicon valley salary if you aren't in silicon valley for example. You will be paid well for your area, but it will be relative to your area.
This shouldn't really come as a surprise as this is how remote employment usually works. It gives added benefit to the likes of Facebook as it drives salaries down.0 -
Working from home will be the new norm for a huge amount of office jobs. Anyone who can't see that coming has their head in the sand because it benefits both employer and employee.
My wife's company have announced that they are looking to re-open the office in September on a phases basis. They said that anyone who wishes to continue working from home until the end of the year can continue to do so. One of the senior managers was very anti-WFH in the past but it looks like the mood music has completely changed and they will offer significant WFH in the future and possibly downsize the office in Galway when the lease is up in a couple of years.0 -
Tax reasons, you cannot work from home from another country. Although if you work 5 days a week from home, would be a pain to enforce maybe?
There are ways around the 'tax reasons'.Although if you work 5 days a week from home, would be a pain to enforce maybe?
Why would it be a pain to enforce? My company has metrics to show increased productivity when everyone is WFH.0 -
I’m sorry if this has been asked previously on the thread, but if WFH becomes more and more the norm for tech businesses, why would the employer restrict recruitment to the domestic market? Surely if there is no physical need for the employee to attend a particular location, job advertisements would be open anyone, anywhere who meets the required qualifications/experience? So now domestic applicants or even those already in employment are in competition with people in much lower cost economies.
You are correct. This will happen more and more.0 -
Working from home will be the new norm for a huge amount of office jobs. Anyone who can't see that coming has their head in the sand because it benefits both employer and employee.
I know I would gladly take a 10/15k (even more?) pay cut for a job which allows me to work from home 5 days a week. After taxes, commuting costs, it just isn't worth the hassle. Not only will a lot of companies allow for it, they'll be forced to do it because they will just lose their staff. Would you rather a 50k job that allows you to work from a new 4 bed house in Wexford? Or an 85k job that requires you to commute 2 hours a day from a crappy old 3 bed semi in some dodgy part of Dublin. No brainer for me. Wexford all the way.
I'm not sure this idea that everyone wants to leave Dublin rings true at all0 -
The great thing for me is that this 'new way of working' most likely means choice. We hopefully are moving to a space where if you want to WFH, you will be able. If you want to be in an office, hopefully that too will still be possible.
Most of the examples I am hearing about, although it is very early days, plan to make workspaces available so team meetings can take place, either on a weekly or 2 weekly basis, or even to hold meetings with clients.
There is a good angle here for cleaners who have the ability to provide deep cleans regularly. Sounds like a potential business option. I don't think offices will disappear as some as implying, they will only adapt.
Covid 19 has only propelled sooner what was going to happen at some point.0 -
Read the whole thread just now. A couple of thoughts:
1. The notion that with work from home every job will be shifted to India is a fake argument in my view. Plenty of companies have tried it and yes they are cheap, but as the saying goes "the bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten". Look at Eir - they are a case in point and in the last year have opened call centres in Limerick I think.
2. The internet is around long enough that if this seismic shift of every job to India were going to happen, it would have happened by now. The main jobs which are shifted to India are low-paid, repeat grunt work (e.g. Amazon) but any job with any sort of value-add is remaining in the 1st world and will do so. Amazon couldn't care if some guy in India helps you sort out where your order is, but they still have 1700 employees in Ireland and many times that in the US doing the real value work.
3. People talk about IBM, they still employ 3k people 352,600 employees in the US (and 3k here) and 130,000 in India. So they still have nearly 3 times as many employees in India as they do out of it.
Just my thoughts, I could be wrong.0 -
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I’m sorry if this has been asked previously on the thread, but if WFH becomes more and more the norm for tech businesses, why would the employer restrict recruitment to the domestic market? Surely if there is no physical need for the employee to attend a particular location, job advertisements would be open anyone, anywhere who meets the required qualifications/experience? So now domestic applicants or even those already in employment are in competition with people in much lower cost economies.
That's correct - but remember there are issues which come with resources from those lower-cost economies. Language, culture, inability to ever meet them even once a fortnight/month for team-building exercises.I'm not sure this idea that everyone wants to leave Dublin rings true at all
I'd never say everyone. But I would definitely say enough people to make a dent in the housing/rental market problem. Those who own a house already, or have an easy enough commute will probably not care. But nobody will convince me the same holds true for those who are spending 50%+ of their take-home pay on renting crap accommodation which has an hour commute on crappy buses which are all full by 7:45am!0 -
That's correct - but remember there are issues which come with resources from those lower-cost economies. Language, culture, inability to ever meet them even once a fortnight/month for team-building exercises.
I'd never say everyone. But I would definitely say enough people to make a dent in the housing/rental market problem. Those who own a house already, or have an easy enough commute will probably not care. But nobody will convince me the same holds true for those who are spending 50%+ of their take-home pay on renting crap accommodation which has an hour commute on crappy buses which are all full by 7:45am!
I mean, you're also saying these people will no longer have to commute. There are other appeal factors to Dublin too0 -
PhilOssophy wrote: »3. People talk about IBM, they still employ 3k people 352,600 employees in the US (and 3k here) and 130,000 in India. So they still have nearly 3 times as many employees in India as they do out of it.
I have read this a few times but I don't understand your numbers. Can you clarify.0 -
I mean, you're also saying these people will no longer have to commute. There are other appeal factors to Dublin too
I take your point. Do you not think though the state of the rental market is making it practically impossible for people to rent in Dublin? I mean there are senior managers living in hotels for weeks (sometimes months?) because they can't find a place to rent. Granted there's an airport, more restaurants, more pubs/clubs and of course the big events/concerts are all held there. For me though, the savings people would make on rent (and the stress of finding a place to rent) would outweigh the inconvenience of accessing those perks from somewhere outside the capital.
Also - couples 'settling down' are continuing to rent in Dublin because they can't afford to get a big enough deposit together for the mega prices which are in Dublin at the moment. Some of them have already resigned themselves to the commuter's life by moving out to Kildare/Meath etc. I just think we'll see an increase in this, and that will have a knock-on effect on the market in Dublin.0 -
I have two of my team working permanently from home before this happened. Now all are WFH, and it works just fine. Of my 10 staff, the 2 that are currently permanently WFH will stay that way and the others will come back into the office. Not because I want them to, but because they want to. All of them. And our job is 100% doable remotely, 100% of the time. I have always been open to flexible working arrangements, and would actively encourage WFH, but my lot want to come in. Not a huge sample obviously, but just an indication.
In addition, everyone here is talking about the undoubted savings in rent, utilities, etc., where offices can be downsized but there are other increases that haven't been mentioned. If an employee is wfh the employer still has to (rightly) ensure H&S, correct working environment, etc. For Dublin renters the rent deduction might of course be more substantial than any other ancillary increases. Not always the case for those of us SMEs not Dublin-based.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/health_and_safety/working_at_home.html#le0d280 -
secondrowgal wrote: »I have two of my team working permanently from home before this happened. Now all are WFH, and it works just fine. Of my 10 staff, the 2 that are currently permanently WFH will stay that way and the others will come back into the office. Not because I want them to, but because they want to. All of them. And our job is 100% doable remotely, 100% of the time. I have always been open to flexible working arrangements, and would actively encourage WFH, but my lot want to come in. Not a huge sample obviously, but just an indication.
In addition, everyone here is talking about the undoubted savings in rent, utilities, etc., where offices can be downsized but there are other increases that haven't been mentioned. If an employee is wfh the employer still has to (rightly) ensure H&S, correct working environment, etc. For Dublin renters the rent deduction might of course be more substantial than any other ancillary increases. Not always the case for those of us SMEs not Dublin-based.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/health_and_safety/working_at_home.html#le0d28
A few buddies of mine really miss the office, and getting out of the house and others are absolutely delighted with WFH...its not for everyone0 -
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PhilOssophy wrote: »Read the whole thread just now. A couple of thoughts:
1. The notion that with work from home every job will be shifted to India is a fake argument in my view. Plenty of companies have tried it and yes they are cheap, but as the saying goes "the bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten". Look at Eir - they are a case in point and in the last year have opened call centres in Limerick I think.
2. The internet is around long enough that if this seismic shift of every job to India were going to happen, it would have happened by now. The main jobs which are shifted to India are low-paid, repeat grunt work (e.g. Amazon) but any job with any sort of value-add is remaining in the 1st world and will do so. Amazon couldn't care if some guy in India helps you sort out where your order is, but they still have 1700 employees in Ireland and many times that in the US doing the real value work.
3. People talk about IBM, they still employ 3k people 352,600 employees in the US (and 3k here) and 130,000 in India. So they still have nearly 3 times as many employees in India as they do out of it.
Just my thoughts, I could be wrong.
Eir moved from Dublin to Limerick where they were already present, they were never offshore.0 -
Bumped into a rugby mate of mine the other day - he works for big fund in Dublin.
He has been working from home since it started.
He says his firm ( international) will offer employees to WFH permanently.
Dunno how many they employ.
He said that the current feeling in Dublin amongst top office based firms is the same as his
If true, itll have cataclysmic sized impact on everything.
Eg
1/ Brexit firms having signed contracts for office space in Dublin
2/ Existing firms downsizing
3/ Will people be reimbursed for working at home?
4/ insurance for home
4/ peeps moving outside of Dublin0 -
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They did outsource but it was all Dublin.
My company has two things:
An office in India who are a disaster
A load of Indians in 1st world offices who are great
Interesting to see if the whole H1B1 thing becomes less attractive to talent acquisition teams.0 -
Did Eir not outsource support to HCL which used a combination of local and Indian call centres?
They have now moved it back in house now to try and improve the service.
Could be wrong but I am fairly sure the Eir Chat (probably....the worst service in the world) was all done remotely from India.0 -
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The Chinese team outsourced team were hopeless when I first worked with them in 2007.
By 2014 when I next worked with them quality had improved markedly. So much so that in 2016 I trained a could to do my job, just before being made redundant.
Same thing will happen with the Indians. Or far use more likely in out time zones, the Polish, Romanian, Latvian, etc.0 -
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I'm not sure this idea that everyone wants to leave Dublin rings true at all
I don’t think it rings true that anybody is suggesting that everyone wants to leave Dublin.
IF wfh becomes mainstream long term it will relieve the current pressure on Dublin, meaning there is enough accommodation at a sensible price for the many who do want to live in Dublin, precisely because those who don’t want to live there don’t have to.0 -
Definitely no evidence that everybody wants to leave Dublin! I don't think anybody is suggesting that at all.
But.....as per the OP....if you can own a lovely big house in Wexford for the same money as a shoe-box in Dublin, I know which option most people would choose, especially when kids come along. I can see why any young lad or young girl would want to live in Dublin though, it's a great city to live in.
But that said, there are plenty of towns like Wexford or Gorey which are great when you get a few more years on the clock. Lots of good pubs, shops, tick many boxes once those mad 20s are over for most people.
Sure look, different strokes for different folks0 -
You're assuming your job will always be there. Hint: it may not.
Then you may need to take another job that requires you to be physically onsite and you are left commuting from your massive house with its massive empty office for hours every day because beside you is nothing but fields.
Where I'm building my house I am 40 mins or less commute to my current job and a large array of other companies etc in the city and surrounds.
I want to live at home, have a family farm there which I will be running on the side along with my main off farm job, building on our own land so selling would never be an option etc. If I have to or want to move job it will always have to be commutable or wfh as I have zero interest in moving anywhere else even if I didn't have ties to the area that would make it difficult.
The type of highly skilled work I do will always be similarish even in a different company and will always have a large portion of it that is suitable to WFH, it is also the type of work that regardless of the company they will always offer lots of flexibility so I would not be concerned about having an empty office at home as it will always be used by me or my wife who also working in an area that WFH is very common at least some of the time (also need an office for the farm business anyway aside from off farm).I’m sorry if this has been asked previously on the thread, but if WFH becomes more and more the norm for tech businesses, why would the employer restrict recruitment to the domestic market? Surely if there is no physical need for the employee to attend a particular location, job advertisements would be open anyone, anywhere who meets the required qualifications/experience? So now domestic applicants or even those already in employment are in competition with people in much lower cost economies.
Very little risk in this imo. Most jobs that can be outsourced already are and many have been in-sourced again as it generally doesn't work well. Then there are plenty of other reasons like skill sets, regulatory reasons, tax reasons, grants and supports etc etc0 -
Niko White Spruce wrote: »Very little risk in this imo. Most jobs that can be outsourced already are and many have been in-sourced again as it generally doesn't work well. Then there are plenty of other reasons like skill sets, regulatory reasons, tax reasons, grants and supports etc etc
But outsourced jobs prior to this meant lay offs, unions, bad publicity etc. For new hires, companies had to consider how a candidate would fit in, would they relocate, will they be able to find accommodation etc, now what I am curious about is, is it necessary for a new hire for a “WFH job” to be physically in Ireland? If this is the way tech/financial are going, it seems to me that it’s like turkeys voting for Christmas if the employer can hire from any workforce worldwide.
Coincidentally, on the Last Word at the moment they are discussing WFH. Apparently Facebook are planning to lower wages paid to employees who WFH as they will not have cost of commuting or living in expensive cities.0 -
But outsourced jobs prior to this meant lay offs, unions, bad publicity etc. For new hires, companies had to consider how a candidate would fit in, would they relocate, will they be able to find accommodation etc, now what I am curious about is, is it necessary for a new hire for a “WFH job” to be physically in Ireland? If this is the way tech/financial are going, it seems to me that it’s like turkeys voting for Christmas if the employer can hire from any workforce worldwide.
Coincidentally, on the Last Word at the moment they are discussing WFH. Apparently Facebook are planning to lower wages paid to employees who WFH as they will not have cost of commuting or living in expensive cities.
I'd say Facebook are kite flying that one, it would be a mass exodus if people can earn more elsewhere! Also how do you square the person who bought the house in Shankill who now decided they don't want to commute to city centre, and somebody else who buys a house in Leitrim? If anything, Facebook should be saving money on very expensive office space, etc.0 -
PhilOssophy wrote: »I'd say Facebook are kite flying that one, it would be a mass exodus if people can earn more elsewhere! Also how do you square the person who bought the house in Shankill who now decided they don't want to commute to city centre, and somebody else who buys a house in Leitrim? If anything, Facebook should be saving money on very expensive office space, etc.
Imagine the insurance cost savings alone for one of their office spaces0 -
But outsourced jobs prior to this meant lay offs, unions, bad publicity etc. For new hires, companies had to consider how a candidate would fit in, would they relocate, will they be able to find accommodation etc, now what I am curious about is, is it necessary for a new hire for a “WFH job” to be physically in Ireland? If this is the way tech/financial are going, it seems to me that it’s like turkeys voting for Christmas if the employer can hire from any workforce worldwide.
Many tech companies could have done this long ago if they wanted but they haven't. The fact is to outsourcing to cheap countries barely works for low skilled call centre type work, it will not work for skilled jobs hence it has not already happened. Most jobs will require at least occasional time onsite also for meetings, training when you join etc and flying someone over from India is not practical. Its doable from an EU country say but then the wages wont be any cheaper so its really just a case of hiring the best person for the job which is what they would do now anyway.Coincidentally, on the Last Word at the moment they are discussing WFH. Apparently Facebook are planning to lower wages paid to employees who WFH as they will not have cost of commuting or living in expensive cities.
I don't see much of an issue, plenty could easily end up better off WFH with a small pay cut but owning a very nice house rather than renting a shoe box or sharing etc.0 -
Niko White Spruce wrote: »Many tech companies could have done this long ago if they wanted but they haven't. The fact is to outsourcing to cheap countries barely works for low skilled call centre type work, it will not work for skilled jobs hence it has not already happened.
I don't see much of an issue, plenty could easily end up better off WFH with a small pay cut but owning a very nice house rather than renting a shoe box or sharing etc.
Nox, many companies could have a wfh policy, but didn’t, until now. Now they no longer need to put a face to the name, how long do you think it will be before employers start to look at cost savings by employing techs from other countries.
I can see how a domestic employee is necessary if everyone has to come into an office, but if they don’t have to physically come to work, then distance from the office is inconsequential, you just need to find someone to do the job right. It would be crazy for employers who have wfh policy not look at cheaper alternatives to do the same job.0 -
Niko White Spruce wrote: »Many tech companies could have done this long ago if they wanted but they haven't. The fact is to outsourcing to cheap countries barely works for low skilled call centre type work, it will not work for skilled jobs hence it has not already happened. Most jobs will require at least occasional time onsite also for meetings, training when you join etc and flying someone over from India is not practical. Its doable from an EU country say but then the wages wont be any cheaper so its really just a case of hiring the best person for the job which is what they would do now anyway.
I don't see much of an issue, plenty could easily end up better off WFH with a small pay cut but owning a very nice house rather than renting a shoe box or sharing etc.
Plenty (if not all) tech companies could have had people WFH permanently a long time ago but they didnt do that either.
Some people are getting a taste of WFH and think its some sort of game
changer. Its only a game changer if you are enabled to WFH to such a significant extent that your whereabouts become irrelevant.
I have yet to see that happen at any scale in 20% working in the industry.
In fact the only time I have seen it is when an employee who works from the office is moving for other reasons and the company doesnt want to lose them. Thats a small percentage of people.0 -
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Plenty (if not all) tech companies could have had people WFH permanently a long time ago but they didnt do that either.
Some people are getting a taste of WFH and think its some sort of game
changer. Its only a game changer if you are enabled to WFH to such a significant extent that your whereabouts become irrelevant.
I have yet to see that happen at any scale in 20% working in the industry.
In fact the only time I have seen it is when an employee who works from the office is moving for other reasons and the company doesnt want to lose them. Thats a small percentage of people.
I don't think it has to even be 100% work from home to be honest to make it a significant advantage for many many people.
I have absolutely no interest in living in Dublin so that cuts out all Dublin jobs for me. However if I could live where I want in Co. Galway and WFH 70-80% of the time for a Dublin based company that would be perfectly doable imo. 1 day a week or two some weeks driving to Dublin to be onsite would be a non-issue. Up and down in the same day or stay up one night if doing two days. That's just an example.
Also many companies have allowed significant levels of WFH long before covid, in tech particularly I know two people working for a multinational who live on the other side of the country to where their job is based and come in a few days a month max sometimes months without coming in. They took these jobs as onsite and then wanted to move elsewhere and kept their job. I myself have only been in our main office for about 8 days since the start of the year with working from home or in a remote office alone the rest of the time. Without covid I probably would have been another 5 days in the office in the time since the lockdown began so it's making very little difference to me.0 -
The thing that most people are ignoring here in the WFH discussion is we STILL don't have widespread good broadband coverage in Ireland.
I'm working from home since the lockdown and the internet and phone signal have been painful. Moved to a rural location 5 years ago and I love it but the one downfall has been that despite trying every single option I still don't have good broadband.
Last option now is Eir, thought I was on the pigsback when they declared they have fibre broadband in the area. No, they came out, had a look and said they will need planning permission to get the line 6 feet from the P&T box to my house, initially promised a date of 4th May back in March, it's now been pushed back to 4th August and I'll believe it when I see it, say it will be 2021 at the very earliest.
Can't wait to get back to the office, lack of communication with people is so frustrating. Have to email or text because the phone signal is so bad they can't hear me.
Also, I got free meals at work so there hasn't been any overall saving for me considering I'm paying more electricity and heating (not so bad recently but winter would cost me a fortune).
Also miss the social interaction and the fact that you have to make yourself look presentable!!
Horses for courses I suppose and if I had a decent phone line and broadband I'd probably be a lot happier.0 -
Plenty (if not all) tech companies could have had people WFH permanently a long time ago but they didnt do that either.
Some people are getting a taste of WFH and think its some sort of game
changer. Its only a game changer if you are enabled to WFH to such a significant extent that your whereabouts become irrelevant.
I have yet to see that happen at any scale in 20% working in the industry.
In fact the only time I have seen it is when an employee who works from the office is moving for other reasons and the company doesnt want to lose them. Thats a small percentage of people.
Yours sounds like complete opinion.do you work in a multinational or WFH? Bit of a silly argument also people used and still use horses long after cars were invented. Things grow in popularity in time.0
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