Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

BloodBath · 29-10-2020 9:10pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Someone having a different viewpoint to you isn’t a troll.
It would appear from the hysteria that nothing short of a public execution will satisfy certain posters. Life was different back then. Thankfully it’s changed.
What outcome do you want? Everyone’s testimony out in the public domain, unchallenged? Where’s the fairness or justice in that?

Justice for the victims of the cruelty and evil of the RCC.

Child trafficking slavers who used both the mothers and babies for profit.

Donald Trump · 29-10-2020 9:13pm

stockshares wrote: »

There is a nasty undercurrent to the language that they both use

Completely lacking in empathy and deliberately attempting to hurt.

It's easily seen through.

To be fair, you appear to be on the side of those calling for promises of confidentiality (promised to women whom I would suggest have suffered enough) to be broken and their details be released into the public domain so that misery ghouls can have an old nosey around and sate their curiosity as to which of their neighbours were "fallen women". Some will have been able to put that part of their past largely behind them and live relatively normal lives. Do you want to try destroy their lives again and hang out their "shame" for public viewing now? It doesn't matter what should and shouldn't be shameful in theory. What matters is their perception and the worry of what they will have to deal with.

Surely you can understand that doing so would mean that you would never to able to collect any similar future testimony? If a woman wanted to keep her story secret in her lifetime then she would know that the only way to do that would be to tell nobody and let it die with her.

If I was someone involved in wrongdoing, I'd be pushing for the testimony to be made public too because I'd know that it would mean that victims would know to keep quiet in future

29-10-2020 9:13pm

BloodBath wrote: »

Justice for the victims of the cruelty and evil of the RCC.

Child trafficking slavers who used both the mothers and babies for profit.

Is there actual evidence of this that would stand up in today’s courts of law?
Are any of the “Perpetrators” still alive to be prosecuted?

Cluedo Monopoly · 29-10-2020 9:47pm

stockshares wrote: »

There is a nasty undercurrent to the language that they both use

Completely lacking in empathy and deliberately attempting to hurt.

It's easily seen through.

Actually the weird thing is that when I read their posts it's as if they will not acknowledge that the survivors are still alive. It's like they see it as a shameful historic account that should be just ignored now. Sometimes they almost deny any of the human rights abuses took place. Zero empathy for the survivors or their rights. I believe the last home closed in the mid 1990s.
.

29-10-2020 9:52pm

The Clann Project wants to shut down debate. https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-homes-barry-ward-5247996-Oct2020/

Donald Trump · 29-10-2020 10:07pm

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Actually the weird thing is that when I read their posts it's as if they will not acknowledge that the survivors are still alive. It's like they see it as a shameful historic account that should be just ignored now. Zero empathy for the survivors or their rights. I believe the last home closed in the mid 1990s.

Most arguments against publishing the testimony have explicitly been because victims are still alive. I repeated this about 3 posts above yours.

You appear to want to be the one to harass and subject those victims to more feelings of stress, humiliation and shame by breaking promises made to them. Have you no empathy for them? None at all?

Or are you actually trying to break that promise now so that there can be no future collection of testimonials? You want to destroy the privacy of these victims so that other victims will know to keep quiet in future? What do you want to hide? I believe that there should be strong systems in order that testimony can be collected and recorded. You apparently don't want that to exist.

Where else would you like to remove promised anonymity? Maybe the anonymity for victims of sexual assault/abuse? So that a girl who finally builds up the courage to report her abuser will now know that both their names and photos can be splashed across the local papers?

stockshares · 30-10-2020 3:11pm

The Minister is expected to receive the report today.

A good description of what exactly is in the report is in this article.
http://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/sealing-the-records-of-irish-institutional-abuse/

Quote
The Commission has not published a full catalogue of its archive. However, its holdings are of two kinds:

Copies of historical records created by state and religious bodies involved in the system from 1922 onwards. (Although originals have not been destroyed, they are often difficult to access, especially where they are in private or religious hands).

Records of the Commission’s own processes, including transcripts of witness evidence at Commission hearings and, notably, a database documenting connections between children born in some homes and their parents

Mrs OBumble · 30-10-2020 8:56pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

You'd imagine that most mothers would not want to go through that instant of their child being taken out of their arms. Even if their personal circumstances left them with no other practical option. It's hardly a ground breaking theory now is it?

Except if the child was the result of rape by their father or brother. Those lovely family members who banished their daughters and sisters to mother and baby homes to make problems go away.

Cluedo Monopoly · 30-10-2020 9:08pm

Catherine Corless on the late late show tonight.

30-10-2020 9:36pm

stockshares wrote: »

The Minister is expected to receive the report today.

A good description of what exactly is in the report is in this article.
http://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/sealing-the-records-of-irish-institutional-abuse/

Quote
The Commission has not published a full catalogue of its archive. However, its holdings are of two kinds:

Copies of historical records created by state and religious bodies involved in the system from 1922 onwards. (Although originals have not been destroyed, they are often difficult to access, especially where they are in private or religious hands).

Records of the Commission’s own processes, including transcripts of witness evidence at Commission hearings and, notably, a database documenting connections between children born in some homes and their parents

Have you read the previous reports?

Cluedo Monopoly · 30-10-2020 9:43pm

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1030/1174787-mother-and-baby-commission-report/

The Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes has submitted its final report to the Minister for Children.
The document, which runs to more than 4,000 pages, will be published after it has been reviewed by the Attorney General.

Igotadose · 30-10-2020 9:47pm

CNN has picked up the story.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/30/europe/ireland-mother-baby-homes-commission-intl/index.html

stockshares · 30-10-2020 10:57pm

stockshares wrote: »

The AG changed his mind on GDPR so now survivors will be able to access their records.
https://twitter.com/MaryERegan/status/1321549677716774918?s=19

On Saturday Colm Brophy appeared on the Katie Hannon show and said that the Minister must obey the legal advice of the AG .

That is the reason why many Ministers said they voted to pass the Bill last week.

Listen back here. Katie only gave this the last few mins of her show so he starts talking about M+B from 46mins 47secs in. Let the Advert play first.
https://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/share/radio1/11245627

Now almost a week later the AG has changed his mind but the Bill has been passed.

It turns out now that the AG did not give the advice to Roderic O Gorman or to the other Ministers and TDs.

It was the Department that gave the advice.
This has to result in resignations.

https://twitter.com/Tupp_Ed/status/1322266951843012611?s=19

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/no-obstacle-to-publication-of-mother-and-baby-homes-report-says-taoiseach-1.4395720?mode=amp

Quote from the IT above
Asked about legal advice given in the run-up to this policy change, a spokesman for Mr O’Gorman said the department engaged with the Attorney General’s office following receipt of the commission’s sixth interim report, which it received in February. Contact was made with the Attorney General “regarding significant issues the commission of investigation has raised regarding access to a valuable database it had created in the course of its work”, a spokesman for the Minister said.

“This involved consideration of the 2004 Commissions of Investigation Act.”

It is understood that broad advice was provided by the Attorney General’s office in relation to the database and the non-disclosure of records, and that this was interpreted by departmental legal advisers as supporting a blanket ban. On foot of that engagement, the department’s advice to the Minister was that “access to the archive produced by the commission through GDPR is expressly prohibited”.

However, following contact from the Data Protection Commissioner on October 19th, the department sought further advice from the Attorney General’s office.

The Attorney General then provided oral advice at Cabinet, and subsequently gave written advice to the department, “clarifying that the amended 2004 Act does not preclude the consideration of data requests by the department, which must respect the GDPR

30-10-2020 11:25pm

stockshares wrote: »

It turns out now that the AG did not give the advice to Roderic O Gorman or to the other Ministers and TDs.

It was the Department that gave the advice.
This has to result in resignations.

No, no, no. We cannot have resignations. This would lead to a delay in retribution. After all, that’s the end game. Money.

Gooey Looey · 30-10-2020 11:54pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, no, no. We cannot have resignations. This would lead to a delay in retribution. After all, that’s the end game. Money.

What, money is the end game? You really are trolling now!

stockshares · 31-10-2020 12:12am

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Catherine Corless on the late late show tonight.

Catherine is on now in a couple of mins.

Cluedo Monopoly · 31-10-2020 12:32am

stockshares wrote: »

Catherine is on now in a couple of mins.

A great interview from an amazing woman. As she said, the survivors want a basic human right, their identity.

31-10-2020 12:40am

Gooey Looey wrote: »

What, money is the end game? You really are trolling now!

Watch this space.

smurgen · 31-10-2020 12:43am

Deleted User wrote: »

No, no, no. We cannot have resignations. This would lead to a delay in retribution. After all, that’s the end game. Money.

What are you getting at that there are no he genuine victims here?

MintyMagnum · 31-10-2020 12:46am

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

A great interview from an amazing woman. As she said, the survivors want a basic human right, their identity.

Successive Governments keep saying AG advises the constitution would need changing for this to happen, women signed adoption papers on the promise of all their trouble going away and the slate wiped clean, that privacy was guaranteed. (Oh yeah despite underage girls could not give their consent or sign anything, or those who never signed but had their signatures forged, or those that had a change of heart before the six month grace period was up were told there was no way to get their fostered child back etc). Can't see the gov making people's files readily available to them unredacted. I'd say they're afraid of huge lawsuits/ compensation claims.

Igotadose · 31-10-2020 9:35am

MintyMagnum wrote: »

Successive Governments keep saying AG advises the constitution would need changing for this to happen, women signed adoption papers on the promise of all their trouble going away and the slate wiped clean, that privacy was guaranteed. (Oh yeah despite underage girls could not give their consent or sign anything, or those who never signed but had their signatures forged, or those that had a change of heart before the six month grace period was up were told there was no way to get their fostered child back etc). Can't see the gov making people's files readily available to them unredacted. I'd say they're afraid of huge lawsuits/ compensation claims.

But but but... crime. Committed by the government. Justice. Things like this matter. Coverups are just a way to delay justice.

31-10-2020 10:42am

MintyMagnum wrote: »

Successive Governments keep saying AG advises the constitution would need changing for this to happen, women signed adoption papers on the promise of all their trouble going away and the slate wiped clean, that privacy was guaranteed. (Oh yeah despite underage girls could not give their consent or sign anything, or those who never signed but had their signatures forged, or those that had a change of heart before the six month grace period was up were told there was no way to get their fostered child back etc). Can't see the gov making people's files readily available to them unredacted. I'd say they're afraid of huge lawsuits/ compensation claims.

I’d imagine that there’s very little actual evidence left. What is there is hearsay. Most children adopted had good lives, some didn’t. Is that any different from the rest of the population?

Gervais08 · 31-10-2020 10:52am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I’d imagine that there’s very little actual evidence left. What is there is hearsay. Most children adopted had good lives, some didn’t. Is that any different from the rest of the population?

Ah but you’re forgetting we must balance the evils done by other faiths by hammering home the decades old wrongs ours did. For fairness.

31-10-2020 10:58am

Gervais08 wrote: »

Ah but you’re forgetting we must balance the evils done by other faiths by hammering home the decades old wrongs ours did. For fairness.

Most likely by throwing shed loads of money to them! The only winners will be the legal eagles who can spot money making opportunities at every turn.

I grew up in the 60’s when it wasn’t unusual for the teacher to use his cane at every opportunity. Usually to members of the two poorest, largest and with hindsight, most feral families! Who should we sue? The now dead teacher? The state? Our now dead parents?

Mrsmum · 31-10-2020 2:17pm

I just think when a woman has a baby, now or ever, she obviously needs accommodation, the means for provisions and support. You could survive on little enough of those but you must have some to survive at all. At least there is some state support now and mostly family support too. But you know what, plenty snide remarks still too. Back then, if her dearest and dearest didn't want to know her and especially her baby and no help directly to her from the state either, her choices were slim to none. There was no utopia where she could keep her child in the days that were. When there is no other option, it's all the same to my mind whether you say the child was taken/ pulled from my arms or I gave my baby away. No options - one result. I primarily blame the families because there were actually plenty families that kept the babies, often pretending for 'respectability' the baby was the parents or just as in two cases I know realising it was no one else's business and carrying on accordingly. To a certain, but not total degree, I think the nuns in the homes etc are a really handy scapegoat for society at large to avoid taking a look at itself.

eta Showing care and kindness should have been very possible to the girls/women in those homes. After all that is straight from the Gospels. But that they would keep the babies, without support from their families, I don't think that was possible in the circumstances of the times.

stockshares · 31-10-2020 4:27pm

A number of politicians during the last week attempted to brand the Repeal the Seal campaign as Politically Motivated.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40071395.html?type=amp&__twitter_impression=true

They could not comprehend that survivors of the M+B homes and their supporters could have organised the campaign themselves.
Quote from Examiner
In response to the allegation of Sinn Féin's paid advertising, campaigner Claire McGettrick said on social media that the campaign was conceived of by her, and (campaigners) Katherine O'Donnell and Maeve O'Rourke, adding Sinn Féin had "had no role in its operation". Fianna Fáil et al are assuming there are third parties out there manipulating survivors whereas the email campaign was conceived of by the three of us, there were no third parties whatsoever. This is a campaigning method we have used twice before.

Some of these Politicians are named below.
Senator Barry Ward(who initiated the smear)
Fianna Fáil TD Cathal Crowe
Fine Gael Justice Minister Helen McEntee
Fiaan Fail Senator Lisa Chambers
Fianna Fail Senator Erin McGreehan
Green Party Councillor Daniel Dunne
Fianna Fáil TD Niall Collins

Quote from Niall Collins below.
"There's a political agenda here, all these people are politically motivated, the opposition are exploiting the situation."

Collins replied to a constituent in the letter below
https://twitter.com/Tupp_Ed/status/1320853947062624257?s=19

Maree Ryan-O'Brien from Aitheantas and Niall Collins were on Saturday with Katie Hannon today. Segment starts at 52 mins. Let the Ad play first.
https://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/share/radio1/11247652

For someone who says he and the Gov are trying to do the right thing by the campaigners Collins showed Maree no respect and constantly tried to shout her down.

M+B homes have lodged a complaint against Barry Ward.
https://twitter.com/thejournal_ie/status/1321876452703412224?s=19

TheChizler · 31-10-2020 10:30pm

stockshares wrote: »

Quote from Niall Collins below.
"There's a political agenda here, all these people are politically motivated, the opposition are exploiting the situation."

Where is this stated? The part in your quote marks.

stockshares · 31-10-2020 11:05pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Where is this stated? The part in your quote marks.

Read the Examiner article above.

Quote
When asked who was politically motivated, Mr Collins said the opposition "for both" to win votes and rile up the public against the government, and that people should study who are orchestrating the campaign.

"There's a political agenda here, all these people are politically motivated, the opposition are exploiting the situation."

31-10-2020 11:10pm

stockshares wrote: »

Read the Examiner article above.

Quote
When asked who was politically motivated, Mr Collins said the opposition "for both" to win votes and rile up the public against the government, and that people should study who are orchestrating the campaign.

"There's a political agenda here, all these people are politically motivated, the opposition are exploiting the situation."

The uproar has nothing to do with the victims and all to do with the vested interests.

TheChizler · 31-10-2020 11:18pm

stockshares wrote: »

Read the Examiner article above.

Quote
When asked who was politically motivated, Mr Collins said the opposition "for both" to win votes and rile up the public against the government, and that people should study who are orchestrating the campaign.

"There's a political agenda here, all these people are politically motivated, the opposition are exploiting the situation."

Right. He's clearly talking about the opposition there, not the survivor groups. Probably attributing to much of the campaign to them but he's not being critical of the survivor groups.

Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

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