How do you convince people god exists?

Larbre34 · 10-06-2019 8:31am

magicbastarder wrote: »

who argues that it did happen by accident?

Darwin.

smacl · 10-06-2019 8:48am

Larbre34 wrote: »

Darwin.

So from that, do you believe the theory of evolution to be false, for example that there were always Sumatran tigers exactly the same as we see them today and there were always feathered birds in the sky?

olestoepoke · 10-06-2019 9:00am

smacl wrote: »

So from that, do you believe the theory of evolution to be false, for example that there were always Sumatran tigers exactly the same as we see them today and there were always feathered birds in the sky?

The universe is that vast and the planets and stars are that numerous, more than we are capable of imagining. Given this, is it not reasonable to assume that at least one planet out of trillions can accidentally form life? Be the exact distance needed from the sun, a planet that has just the right composition, the goldilocks theory. Probability is there.

lawred2 · 10-06-2019 9:03am

kneemos wrote: »

Don't think it's that far fetched,given the existence of the universe a God isn't really any more bizzare.

Religion though is mostly a croc of shoite.

physics and chemistry are not bizarre

supernatural deities are not remotely comparable

Gonad · 10-06-2019 9:09am

I don’t believe in god myself but i find it strange when I am about to receive really bad news I automatically look to the sky and in my mind say please god no .

Maybe it’s just in my mind from when I was younger going to church or whatever . But I asked many people and they all do the same thing .

jobeenfitz · 10-06-2019 9:12am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

How do you in history?

And how do you do it now?

With all the evidence etc.

The same way you prove there are fairies.

smacl · 10-06-2019 9:24am

olestoepoke wrote: »

The universe is that vast and the planets and stars are that numerous, more than we are capable of imagining. Given this, is it not reasonable to assume that at least one planet out of trillions can accidentally form life? Be the exact distance needed from the sun, a planet that has just the right composition, the goldilocks theory. Probability is there.

I've no issues with abiogenesis and subsequent evolution.

bobbysands81 · 10-06-2019 9:28am

Deleted User wrote: »

Tbh I think the whole atheist trend that is happening now will turn out to be just a phase we go through..

So much of it is like listening to a disgruntled 15 year old..

Great... but that doesn’t answer the question as to how you convince people that God exists. Where is the evidence?

bobbysands81 · 10-06-2019 9:28am

Gonad wrote: »

I don’t believe in god myself but i find it strange when I am about to receive really bad news I automatically look to the sky and in my mind say please god no .

Maybe it’s just in my mind from when I was younger going to church or whatever . But I asked many people and they all do the same thing .

It’s probably a Pavlovian response.

olestoepoke · 10-06-2019 9:52am

Gonad wrote: »

I don’t believe in god myself but i find it strange when I am about to receive really bad news I automatically look to the sky and in my mind say please god no .

Maybe it’s just in my mind from when I was younger going to church or whatever . But I asked many people and they all do the same thing .

Indoctrinated from your childhood. Difficult to shake that but liberating when you do

Birdie Num Num · 10-06-2019 10:03am

Peatys wrote: »

Childhood cancer is all i need to know about your god

Ah that old chestnut.

kneemos · 10-06-2019 10:50am

lawred2 wrote: »

physics and chemistry are not bizarre

supernatural deities are not remotely comparable

That a universe can pop into existence out of nothing is as bizzare as it gets.

Nobody really knows though.

robindch · 10-06-2019 10:51am

Pherekydes wrote: »

You should read "The Darkening Age". The early Christian Church literally bullied, beat, stabbed and burnt the intellectual curiosity out of Europe. The only way it could propagate itself.

'The Darkening Age' looks like it might cover similar ground to Charles Freeman's excellent 'The Closing of the Western Mind':

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/138929.The_Closing_of_the_Western_Mind

robindch · 10-06-2019 10:56am

Nikki Sixx wrote: »

For me the seasons and the way nature moves in cycles is fascinating. I find it too hard to believe that say the seasons, the way animals hibernate each year and the dependence of flowers on honey bees to complete their life cycle, is all an accident.

Couldn't agree more - the slow arc of the natural seasons and the march of the living, natural world alongside is really quite amazing to watch.

Much of which is clearly, simply, profoundly and rather wonderfully explained by science. Chance plays a part, but within bounds which heavily limit the usefulness of random outcomes.

Hedgelayer · 10-06-2019 11:29am

robindch wrote: »

Couldn't agree more - the slow arc of the natural seasons and the march of the living, natural world alongside is really quite amazing to watch.

Much of which is clearly, simply, profoundly and rather wonderfully explained by science. Chance plays a part, but within bounds which heavily limit the usefulness of random outcomes.

And one thing for certain nature never forgives.

victor8600 · 10-06-2019 11:46am

I wonder when the normal fallible god of the Old Testament became the All-Mighty All-Seeing God Who Does Everything Everywhere (TM).

I mean you either believe what The Holy Bible says or you do not. And if you take the Bible as a credible source, you could see that while God is powerful and capable of creating matter, energy and living beings in a short space of time, It also capable of errors. God had to cause the flood to erase early design mistakes, expel Adam and Eve and so on. Now you could believe in such a god because It is not all-mighty, It gave you life and gave you the free will, and such a god manifests itself through miracles which cannot be explained other than as proofs of a divine intervention (because 2K years ago no other credible explanation existed). It also guided selected people to kill other people and take their land, so it was not an all-merciful god too.

Whoever invented the All-mighty God did it no favors. Now this god is supposed to know the future and personally select each sperm particle lest a genetically damaged one fertilizes a woman's egg to produce a sick child. If you expect this god to alleviate all suffering, the free will ceases to exist.

However, if we are talking about an abstract God, it is highly probable that a god may exist in the future. The current understanding in physics is that the time travel into the past is theoretically possible. Ergo, if a future advanced being cares to do so, it may play God on Earth.

smacl · 10-06-2019 11:52am

victor8600 wrote: »

The current understanding in physics is that the time travel into the past is theoretically possible

Do you have a credible reference for that one?

victor8600 · 10-06-2019 12:00pm

smacl wrote: »

Do you have a credible reference for that one?

Would a pop-sci article suffice?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/according-to-current-phys/

While Einstein's 4D description of the universe does not forbid traveling through time in either direction, we do not have any evidence of time travel to the past. Thus we can assume that time travel backwards is not practically possible, for example it may require enormous energy input. Or there may be some underlying principle which we have not uncovered yet which prevents backward time travel.

sbsquarepants · 10-06-2019 12:10pm

kneemos wrote: »

What you're talking about is an impossible utopia where the ultimate logical conclusion is a world where everyone lives the same perfect pain and trouble free life.

The sort of place an ever loving omnipotent being could easily create you mean?

I just don't get the adoration at all, if there is a god (I don't believe there is, but you never know I suppose) but if there is, he has happily watched and done nothing while millions of his children starved, he hasn't lifted a finger to stop one rapist or murderer and so on. And that's before you even get in to things like cancer and sickness and so on.

So I think whether a god exists or not is not even all that important, its blindingly obvious to me that if he does exist he's a monster, he's in no way deserving of praise or worship.

Even if he does exist, I want nothing to do with him, I can't see how any right thinking person would.

Hobosan · 10-06-2019 12:15pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

The sort of place an ever loving omnipotent being could easily create you mean?

I just don't get the adoration at all, if there is a god (I don't believe there is, but you never know I suppose) but if there is, he has happily watched and done nothing while millions of his children starved, he has lifted a finger to stop one rapist or murderer and so on. And that's before you even get in to things like cancer and sickness and so on.

So I think whether a god exists or not is not even all that important, its blindingly obvious to me that if he does exist he's a monster, he's in no way deserving of praise or worship.

Even if he does exist, I want nothing to do with him, I can't see how any right thinking person would.

You don't understand the adoration? Do you know how people kowtowed in Soviet Russia so not to upset Stalin and his underlings? Now, apply that subservience to the megalomaniac in the sky and you have your answer.

sbsquarepants · 10-06-2019 12:18pm

Well that's true I suppose - no one wants a stay in the auld fiery gulag!

Hobosan · 10-06-2019 12:32pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Well that's true I suppose - no one wants a stay in the auld fiery gulag!

There's no evidence for God, but someone must be held responsible for this meat grinder, so for that reason, I choose to believe.

None of that afterlife crap. The bastard is hiding in this Universe, and we must track him down and submit him to a round of 'Unit - 731' style testing.

The question shouldn't be 'Does God Exist?'; It should be, 'On the off Chance God Exists, Why is He Trying to Track Himself Down With The Intention of Performing a Live Vivisection on Himself?'

sbsquarepants · 10-06-2019 12:49pm

He certainly deserves it!

robindch · 10-06-2019 1:11pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

The sort of place an ever loving omnipotent being could easily create you mean?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I just don't get the adoration at all [...]

Stockholm Syndrome:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

dogbert27 · 10-06-2019 1:32pm

Why stop at God?

How do you convince people heaven exists?
How do you convince people hell exists?
How do you convince people purgatory exists?

How do you convince people the devil exists, angels, demons, etc.?

A universal law is the conservation of energy, energy cannot be created nor destroyed but converted from one form to another so do we truly die or change to a different form of energy?

Nobelium · 10-06-2019 4:21pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo

I like Fry, but could never work out the illogicality of being so angry and having an unhinged rant with something you claim you don't believes exists.
It's not as if he was being asked about believers /religion either, he was asked a hypothetical question about what he would say to God if he meets him in the afterlife. Very curious reaction. Mine would be more like ". . you exist . . .hmm . . wasn't expecting that . . .so what's your true nature in comparison to what we were told on earth . . . how much of it was true ?"

I can't imagine my response to "what will you say to a leprechaun if you ever meet one" would be to work myself up into a hysterical frenzy imagining all the complaining I'm going to do something I don't believe even exists. Very bizarre.

Maybe I should be working myself up into a frenzy about how I never found one of it's pots of gold at the end of the rainbow ? . . . . YOU WANKER LEPRECHAUNS !!! WHERE WAS THE POT OF GOLD REALLY HIDDEN ??? WHATS THAT ALL ABOUT !!! I'M GOING TO GET YOU LITTLE FECKERS. HOW DARE YOU !!!

Hotblack Desiato · 10-06-2019 4:51pm

Nikki Sixx wrote: »

People who have died and come back

Nobody has ever died and "come back".

Nikki Sixx wrote: »

For me the seasons and the way nature moves in cycles is fascinating. I find it too hard to believe that say the seasons, the way animals hibernate each year and the dependence of flowers on honey bees to complete their life cycle, is all an accident. But I’m sure I’ll be regarded as simple for saying that.

Ah the old argument from design. Douglas Adams compared it to a puddle thinking its hole in the ground was perfectly made just for it:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Douglas_Adams#cite_note-1

You don't appear to be at all familar with the basic concepts of evolution. You don't need a god to explain the existence of the earth or life on it.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-06-2019 4:52pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

There are no atheists in foxholes.

robindch · 10-06-2019 4:57pm

Nobelium wrote: »

I like Fry, but could never work out the illogicality of being so angry with something you claim you don't believes exists.

Gay Byrne posed a hypothetical and Fry replied with clarity and some wit to the question, pointing out, completely accurately, that many religious claim that their deity is in some sense, all-loving, and that this claim is demonstrably untrue. But rather than honestly accepting this and honestly replying to it, the vast majority of religious people prefer instead to ignore that it is false and simply carry on making the claim.

Public dishonesty should be a matter of shame for the people concerned, but for some reason - and I believe it annoys most non-religious people and is probably what annoys Fry here - religion is simply given a free pass and the dishonesty is simply hand-waved away.

Nobelium · 10-06-2019 5:06pm

robindch wrote: »

Gay Byrne posed a hypothetical and Fry replied with clarity and some wit to the question, pointing out, completely accurately, that many religious claim that their deity is in some sense, all-loving, and that this claim is demonstrably untrue. But rather than honestly accepting this and honestly replying to it, the vast majority of religious people prefer instead to ignore that it is false and simply carry on making the claim.

Public dishonesty should be a matter of shame for the people concerned, but for some reason - and I believe it annoys most non-religious people and is probably what annoys Fry here - religion is simply given a free pass and the dishonesty is simply hand-waved away.

I get all this, but instead Fry's reaction wasn't to complain about some of the illogical claims of some believers/religions, but instead a full on emotional and angry rant at an entity he claims he doesn't believe even exists. Not very convincing of non belief. I'd be more like "meh . . so what else it true . . .and not true"

magicbastarder · 10-06-2019 5:10pm

robindch wrote: »

Fry replied with clarity and some wit to the question, pointing out, completely accurately, that many religious claim that their deity is in some sense, all-loving, and that this claim is demonstrably untrue.

i have found that one of the better 'god doesn't have your best interests at heart' arguments - albeit a sarcastic one - is that when he sent his one and only son to save Man, his son didn't suggest anything along the lines of 'hey guys, you really should wash your hands after you have a ****, and boil your water before drinking it'.
poor ould jesus seemed to have been restricted to passing on advice which was already known at the time, which was weird considering he was a god.

smacl · 10-06-2019 5:13pm

Nobelium wrote: »

I get all this, but instead Fry's reaction wasn't to complain about some of the illogical claims of some believers/religions, but instead a full on emotional and angry rant at an entity he claims he doesn't believe even exists. Not very convincing of non belief. I'd be more like "meh . . so what else it true . . .and not true"

He was replying in the context of Byrne's hypothetical scenario where God did exist.

Nobelium · 10-06-2019 5:13pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I get their point than circumstances might not alter someone belief / non belief, but the pic isn't very convincing. They are in a barracks, in barracks uniform, with a whiteboard, under a shady palm tree.

smacl · 10-06-2019 5:15pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i have found that one of the better 'god doesn't have your best interests at heart' arguments - albeit a sarcastic one - is that when he sent his one and only son to save Man, his son didn't suggest anything along the lines of 'hey guys, you really should wash your hands after you have a ****, and boil your water before drinking it'.
poor ould jesus seemed to have been restricted to passing on advice which was already known at the time, which was weird considering he was a god.

Ah yeah, but water into wine though. Who wouldn't want a mate like that at a party?

Nobelium · 10-06-2019 5:18pm

smacl wrote: »

He was replying in the context of Byrne's hypothetical scenario where God did exist.

I know, I said that in the post, but I can't see how I could work myself up into a frenzy about hypothetically meeting something that I believe doesn't even exist and then giving this thing I don't believe exists an emotional and angry telling off.

Nobelium · 10-06-2019 5:29pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i have found that one of the better 'god doesn't have your best interests at heart' arguments - albeit a sarcastic one - is that when he sent his one and only son to save Man, his son didn't suggest anything along the lines of 'hey guys, you really should wash your hands after you have a ****, and boil your water before drinking it'.
poor ould jesus seemed to have been restricted to passing on advice which was already known at the time, which was weird considering he was a god.

Pretty sure they washed themselves and boiled water or drank some kind of alcohol instead, but like he didn't even bring a smart phone and some prozac with him.

smacl · 10-06-2019 5:30pm

Nobelium wrote: »

I know, I said that in the post, but I can't see how I could work myself up into a frenzy about hypothetically meeting something that I believe doesn't even exist and then giving this thing I don't believe exists an emotional and angry telling off.

The point wasn't what he believed or not though, it was an illustration that the notion of a loving Christian God is baloney. What he left on the table was either a god that doesn't exist or a god that was indifferent at best to the interests of humanity. If you accept that, it clearly tells us that Christianity is more about power than love.

Nobelium · 10-06-2019 5:36pm

smacl wrote: »

The point wasn't what he believed or not though, it was an illustration that the notion of a loving Christian God is baloney. What he left on the table was either a god that doesn't exist or a god that was indifferent at best to the interests of humanity. If you accept that, it clearly tells us that Christianity is more about power than love.

Yeah but ranting at a so called God that is indifferent at best to the interests of humanity isn't actual atheism. I can't get emotionally worked up into having a hypothetical rant with something I genuinely believe doesn't even exist, and even if it turned out to . .I would actually know nothing about what is true and not about it, or what kind of entity it even was.

victor8600 · 10-06-2019 5:54pm

Nobelium wrote: »

Yeah but ranting at a so called God that is indifferent at best to the interests of humanity isn't actual atheism. ...

True. Also a 'merciful' God could still be a complete monster. Genghis Khan could be called 'merciful' during the siege of Bukhara:

According to Juvaini, after Genghis Khan took Bukhara "he contented himself with looting and slaughter only once and did not go to the extreme of a general massacre" as he did in Khorasan, although most of the city burned. He chose a moderate path between mercy and punishment because the population readily submitted while the garrison in the citadel resisted.

So a merciful God may flood the whole known world, drowning everybody. But It is merciful, so selected people are allowed to live. :pac:

10-06-2019 5:56pm

victor8600 wrote: »

So a merciful God may flood the whole known world, drowning everybody. But It is merciful, so selected people are allowed to live. :pac:

Yeah, but he did it because people were idiots..

Nobelium · 10-06-2019 6:04pm

victor8600 wrote: »

True. Also a 'merciful' God could still be a complete monster. Genghis Khan could be called 'merciful' during the siege of Bukhara:

So a merciful God may flood the whole known world, drowning everybody. But It is merciful, so selected people are allowed to live. :pac:

Nah . . .I'd be expecting more a Freddy Mercury type character to be honest

igCorcaigh · 10-06-2019 6:08pm

dogbert27 wrote: »

Why stop at God?

How do you convince people heaven exists?
How do you convince people hell exists?
How do you convince people purgatory exists?

How do you convince people the devil exists, angels, demons, etc.?

A universal law is the conservation of energy, energy cannot be created nor destroyed but converted from one form to another so do we truly die or change to a different form of energy?

Metabolised by bugs, but a fair bit of energy is dissipated by heat.

Of course, the question of consciousness extending beyond the body is tied in with panpsychism, which could be argued to some extent. There are still open questions.

kneemos · 10-06-2019 6:18pm

According to the science boffins there are ten or eleven dimensions.
Could be a perfectly simple scientific explanation for our consciences to leak into another dimension.

igCorcaigh · 10-06-2019 6:22pm

kneemos wrote: »

According to the science boffins there are ten or eleven dimensions.
Could be a perfectly simple scientific explanation for our consciences to leak into another dimension.

I would regard consciousness as a process rather than a type of fluid.

jobeenfitz · 10-06-2019 6:23pm

Maybe god had a mental breakdown? If I was responsible for the human race I might feck off to another universe n pretend it wasn't me. So mental breakdown or just had enough of yee Cu***.

smacl · 10-06-2019 6:37pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, but he did it because people were idiots..

Perfectly reasonable excuse for genocide I'm sure. Killing people that you made because you made them too stupid. Of course being omniscient he obviously knew he'd made them too stupid in advance and was going to slaughter them. All in a days work for a merciful lord no doubt.

dogbert27 · 10-06-2019 6:38pm

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Metabolised by bugs, but a fair bit of energy is dissipated by heat.

Of course, the question of consciousness extending beyond the body is tied in with panpsychism, which could be argued to some extent. There are still open questions.

You're decaying body gets eaten by a bug with transfer of energy, that gets eaten by a chicken with transfer of energy that gets eaten by a human with transfer of energy to procreates with transfer of energy to form a zygote and hence re-incarnation!

Well done, you've cracked it! :pac:

10-06-2019 6:41pm

smacl wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, but he did it because people were idiots..

Perfectly reasonable excuse for genocide I'm sure. Killing people that you made because you made them too stupid. Of course being omniscient he obviously knew he'd made them too stupid in advance and was going to slaughter them. All in a days work for a merciful lord no doubt.

It was because they were too loud..

Understandable..

smacl · 10-06-2019 6:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It was because they were too loud..

Understandable..

You'd think an omnipotent deity might've just said 'shush!' in that case rather than resorting to genocide. Not so much a vengeful God as a grumpy all powerful psychopath. And the Christians are afraid of the Devil, makes you wonder whether they've backed the right horse there?

victor8600 · 10-06-2019 6:50pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It was because they were too loud..

Understandable..

I would say it was a merciful deed to put them down, to prevent the unnecessary suffering of all parties

How do you convince people god exists?

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