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How do you convince people god exists?

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    #692
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    I don't know why you're having a go at "superstar atheists" or anyone else in relation to this question.

    It's a question which those who support the notion of an "all knowing, all loving" god struggle to address. The question of evil being another major one.

    As I understand it, you're not a theist, so I don't know why you are laying in to atheists questioning some of the more familiar theist tropes.

    I got delayed responding, I'm not a thiest nor am I all for sunshine lollipops and rainbows.

    I was only giving an example of what he or she's up against.
    It ain't easy to be a thiest and try to get a debate here.

    I suppose being a former thiest I can see it from the thiests point of view as well as the atheists.

    I'm sitting on the patio rather than the fence if you get my drift.


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    #693
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,919 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The vast majority of atheists in Ireland would be either former theists, or at some point in their upbringing wanted to be and/or their parents and school wanted them to be, but it just didn't take.

    Very very few of us grew up in a religion-free environment at home and in school. Even those whose parents would rarely if ever go to church themselves would more often than not have insisted on them doing communion/confirmation etc.

    So to suggest that most of the regulars here don't understand what it's like to be a theist is off the mark. Even if they were never one themselves, they will have family and friends who are. They'll also be well familiar with the usual theist arguments they never found at all convincing - or did at one time, but no longer.

    Also I don't know what "It ain't easy to be a theist and try to get a debate here" really means - this is a forum where ideas without supporting evidence or even reasonable arguments behind them are given short shrift, and rightly so imho. Some theists find that concept very difficult to cope with, they expect ideas to be respected simply because they are religious ideas. That ain't how it works here and increasingly in Irish society in general it's not how it works anymore either.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #694
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Also I don't know what "It ain't easy to be a theist and try to get a debate here" really means - this is a forum where ideas without supporting evidence or even reasonable arguments behind them are given short shrift, and rightly so imho. Some theists find that concept very difficult to cope with, they expect ideas to be respected simply because they are religious ideas.
    To refashion a comment from elsewhere - when you're used to shutting down arguments by claiming religious privilege, suddenly having to justify yourself with facts and reasoning starts to look like prejudice.


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    #695
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    robindch wrote: »
    To refashion a comment from elsewhere - when you're used to shutting down arguments by claiming religious privilege, suddenly having to justify yourself with facts and reasoning starts to look like prejudice.

    The other side of the argument is it worth arguing if you are already confident that your position is solid and as the Cranberries album states "No need to argue"

    I've an interest in Theology and Mythology, and I've spent a long time untangling it all, between the Abrahamic faiths and a lot of creation stories from different cultures.

    And because I am still mystified by a lot of it, I am not searching for enlightenment but more so I wonder about the expance of the cosmos then right down to atomic level and it's very interesting.

    Basically I'm curious and try to get a grip on it all.


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    #696
    zimmermania
    Registered Users Posts: 4,684 ✭✭✭zimmermania


    Why would anyone need to convince someone that god exists.


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    #697
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    zimmermania wrote: »
    Why would anyone need to convince someone that god exists.

    Well if they're content with their own beliefs or lack thereof then they need not worry what other people think.

    But then again if they're interested in the subject of theology and religion it makes sense to debate the existence of a diety.

    But if you've already made up your mind,is there any point in debating ???


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    #698
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    nthclare wrote: »
    But if you've already made up your mind,is there any point in debating ???
    God, yes. I love an argument.


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    #699
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    God, yes. I love an argument.

    Lets get it on :)


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    #700
    karlitob
    Registered Users Posts: 2,575 ✭✭✭karlitob


    nthclare wrote: »
    You're trying to get a response where over 50 people thanked this post without the poster getting an infraction and you think you can get anywhere trying to convince regular posters that God exists...

    This is what is thought of your belief system.
    They don't believe in God, but yet a percentage undermine children with cancer by bringing religion into it.
    No doubt plagerised from some jumped up superstar Atheist they adore.

    I don't understand why people post this gibberish...

    Well it’s a fair point. Those who believe in a god typically pray for some form of intervention from their god. Why would a god, who intervenes in the lives of the plebs ever give a child cancer. If you believe in a god that supervises the laws of nature that he or she established, ie a non interventionist god, then why create a world Where a child can get cancer. Why would an all seeing all powerful god ever give any innocent child cancer.


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    #701
    karlitob
    Registered Users Posts: 2,575 ✭✭✭karlitob


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    You conclude no God via whatever elements go into making up your worldview. You have reasons for believing your worldview to be the best available to you.

    I don't know each and every element but no matter. What matters is that you believe they are fit for purpose - such as to decide and conclude as you currently do.

    I do no differently. The problem is you supposing your methods superior to mine, when there is no firm ground under your feet. You cherry pick the likes of voices in ones head vs. empirical experience of falling objects .. as if your cherry pick is representative of anything. That's just a weak, play to the gallery attempt to elevate what is only founded, ultimately, on a belief.

    Empirical assessments are fine. But they can only comment on what it is appropriate for them to comment on. And that need not be all reality.

    We are in agreement on the narrow issue of objects falling from buildings. But we're talking about where we are not in agreement.

    This is faulty logic.

    I think I understand what you are trying to say - we’ll all the sum of our parts, hard wired and soft wired based on upbringing, experience and view point. Some of your experiences that make you, you - are not easily explainable etc and to you represent the god that you were inculcated into from a young age. Whatever floats your boat.

    But your experiences do not prove that there is a god.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    For example, some lad truly believe that the ‘virgin’ Mary appeared in Mayo on October 31st 2009. Quite luckily it was at knock and not Ballaghadreen - or everyone would’ve missed her. He claims that he saw a vision - Sun shimmering or something to that effect. So did his fellow believers. The docs reckon that the vision was solar retinopathy, where the backs of their eyeballs were damaged from stupidly staring at the sun.

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/hospital-sees-increase-in-eye-condition-after-knock-visions-1.782084%3fmode=amp

    Do you believe the mother of your god appeared in mayo a few years ago? Or do you ‘believe’ that the sun burned holes in the back of their eyeballs?


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    #702
    Marhay70
    Registered Users Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭Marhay70


    karlitob wrote: »
    Do you believe the mother of your god appeared in mayo a few years ago? Or do you ‘believe’ that the sun burned holes in the back of their eyeballs?


    This has always been one of the big questions in my book, why is God so selective in who his saints, son, mother, angels etc. appear to? If the object of the exercise is to convert the world then why not just have a mass appearance? At one fell swoop, he could convert everybody, banish sin, bring peace and harmony to the world.
    Now no doubt one of our religious friends will come up with what they presume as a plausible answer to this, such as," God only wants genuine penitents", conveniently forgetting that there would be no need for penance if God had not engineered the scam of original sin in the first place.


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    #703
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    karlitob wrote: »
    Well it’s a fair point. Those who believe in a god typically pray for some form of intervention from their god. Why would a god, who intervenes in the lives of the plebs ever give a child cancer. If you believe in a god that supervises the laws of nature that he or she established, ie a non interventionist god, then why create a world Where a child can get cancer. Why would an all seeing all powerful god ever give any innocent child cancer.

    I hear what you're saying,but I don't think I'd equate something as serious as a child getting cancer with an all loving God.

    I know for a fact that nature never forgives, if I decide to go surfing in a big swell, it's not the hands of God that'll guide me through a 16ft barrel along a slab....

    Ive read into a lot about belief and lack thereof.
    But you'll see the same people use the same anology to undermine believer's.
    Over and over.

    Some people have a belief that what will be will be, get on with life and take it on the chin and they're Christians, Muslims and other religions.

    Others believe in an interventional God which can be easily debunked.

    I believe atomic particles can communicate from far off distances, I believe that people have a lot of potential and are only using a small percentage of their perception and creativity.

    There's more than likely no sky fairy or man in the clouds but there's definitely more to us than we know.


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    #704
    karlitob
    Registered Users Posts: 2,575 ✭✭✭karlitob


    nthclare wrote: »
    I hear what you're saying,but I don't think I'd equate something as serious as a child getting cancer with an all loving God.

    I know for a fact that nature never forgives, if I decide to go surfing in a big swell, it's not the hands of God that'll guide me through a 16ft barrel along a slab....

    Ive read into a lot about belief and lack thereof.
    But you'll see the same people use the same anology to undermine believer's.
    Over and over.

    Some people have a belief that what will be will be, get on with life and take it on the chin and they're Christians, Muslims and other religions.

    Others believe in an interventional God which can be easily debunked.

    I believe atomic particles can communicate from far off distances, I believe that people have a lot of potential and are only using a small percentage of their perception and creativity.

    There's more than likely no sky fairy or man in the clouds but there's definitely more to us than we know.

    So you don’t equate a child getting cancer with an all loving god. But presumably you would equate a child going into remission from cancer after lots of prayer. Bad things = not god. Good things = god.


    It’s not in the hands of god that guides you through a ‘16ft barrel’. But it was in the hands of god when Moses parted the Red Sea and led all the lads through. It’s hard to keep up.

    It’s not an analogy. It’s not meant to undermine your belief. It’s meant as a direct challenge for believers to justify their belief. Since it’s never answered satisfactorily then it’s repeated.

    Great. Some people believe the same god is interventional and others non interventional. It’s hard to keep up. Almost seems made up to suit the persons own situation.

    ‘More than likely no man in the sky? So you don’t believe in a god?


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    #705
    zimmermania
    Registered Users Posts: 4,684 ✭✭✭zimmermania


    nthclare wrote: »
    I hear what you're saying,but I don't think I'd equate something as serious as a child getting cancer with an all loving God.

    I know for a fact that nature never forgives, if I decide to go surfing in a big swell, it's not the hands of God that'll guide me through a 16ft barrel along a slab....

    Ive read into a lot about belief and lack thereof.
    But you'll see the same people use the same anology to undermine believer's.
    Over and over.

    Some people have a belief that what will be will be, get on with life and take it on the chin and they're Christians, Muslims and other religions.

    Others believe in an interventional God which can be easily debunked.

    I believe atomic particles can communicate from far off distances, I believe that people have a lot of potential and are only using a small percentage of their perception and creativity.

    There's more than likely no sky fairy or man in the clouds but there's definitely more to us than we know.
    Not to mention the multitude of other animals who share the earth with us.


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    #706
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    karlitob wrote: »
    So you don’t equate a child getting cancer with an all loving god. But presumably you would equate a child going into remission from cancer after lots of prayer. Bad things = not god. Good things = god.


    It’s not in the hands of god that guides you through a ‘16ft barrel’. But it was in the hands of god when Moses parted the Red Sea and led all the lads through. It’s hard to keep up.

    It’s not an analogy. It’s not meant to undermine your belief. It’s meant as a direct challenge for believers to justify their belief. Since it’s never answered satisfactorily then it’s repeated.

    Great. Some people believe the same god is interventional and others non interventional. It’s hard to keep up. Almost seems made up to suit the persons own situation.

    ‘More than likely no man in the sky? So you don’t believe in a god?

    I'm an agnostic and probably what you'd call a heathen or pagan.

    God's to me are archetypes, I don't believe they're interventional but they are within our consciousness and part of our heritage, history and culture.

    Your presumption about me thinking a child going into remission due to prayers is the wrong observation, similarly the whole Moses and the parting of the red sea fable.

    I'd trust paganism before I'd trust Christianity that's for sure, any where the cross was brought there was misery, destruction and slaughter.


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    #707
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,272 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Why would you want to convince anyone God exists? Is it not the purpose of life on earth through your actions to either enter the gates of heaven or suffer eternal damnation?

    What I see, is those types who ask the question, and indeed those who walk around town with leaflets targeting ppl they visually deem to be non-believers calling them to church, is not that they are trying to convince anyone God exists, but to convince themselves.

    I always think the psychological discomfort believers live with, is no matter how much or devoutly they believe in God, they always have that niggling issue with those that don't believe, so to solve this psychological discomfort they set about trying to fix this issue for themselves, not that they actually give a flying f whether anyone else believes or not, in terms of their salvation.


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    #708
    Plode
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭Plode


    What if God is some kind of ultimate computer programmer, and we are merely the programs?

    What if, then, as mere programs, we don't do what God wants, and He gets annoyed or frustrated, and wipes the system occasionally?

    If that's the case, we'd better go full on Roman Catholic immediately.


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    #709
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,919 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    You were doing ok until your last sentence... even if you believed without question that a god existed, what reason is there to believe that any of the many competing religions is correct?

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #710
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    You were doing ok until your last sentence... even if you believed without question that a god existed, what reason is there to believe that any of the many competing religions is correct?

    And we're going on the merry go round again :)

    I think all the regular Atheist posters have concluded that no God exists.

    Would it not be easier to let Agnostics chat about it rather than the usual hum drum of circular discussions.

    Maybe it would be more interesting than the usual drawn out babble.


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    #711
    Parsnips
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭Parsnips


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Tbh I think the whole atheist trend that is happening now will turn out to be just a phase we go through..

    So much of it is like listening to a disgruntled 15 year old..

    I wasnt going to post on this thread. but you have just blown my mind.
    To say that the whole Athiest "Trend" will be a "phase"..... is ignorance personified.
    Holy Cow. ( pun intended)

    I 100% know there is no God, No spirits, No Ghosts. No Afterlife.
    Its not a phase. Its education. I appreciate everything I see . from stars to ocean life to spiders webs and wonder at the complexity of things.. I dont just dimiss it and say.. Ah God did that he is great.
    Mother Nature is the only thing controlling this crust we walk on.
    Wow. Just WOW.


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    #712
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Parsnips wrote: »
    I wasnt going to post on this thread. but you have just blown my mind.
    To say that the whole Athiest "Trend" will be a "phase"..... is ignorance personified.
    Holy Cow. ( pun intended)

    I 100% know there is no God, No spirits, No Ghosts. No Afterlife.
    Its not a phase. Its education. I appreciate everything I see . from stars to ocean life to spiders webs and wonder at the complexity of things.. I dont just dimiss it and say.. Ah God did that he is great.
    Mother Nature is the only thing controlling this crust we walk on.
    Wow. Just WOW.

    We'll Pagans think like that, but the hardline Atheists are obsessed with some dude from the middle east with a beard lol and the Catholic church.


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    #713
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    You were doing ok until your last sentence... even if you believed without question that a god existed, what reason is there to believe that any of the many competing religions is correct?
    "Correct" in the sense of "the output the programmer wants".

    Running with this thought, there is of course the possiblity that the outcome the programmer wants is irreligion/atheism.

    Still, if we think that the outcome God wants is either one particular religion or is irreligion, given the diversity of positions on religious belief that we observe the conclusion must be that God isn't a very good coder. Is that blasphemy?


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    #714
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Parsnips wrote: »
    I 100% know there is no God, No spirits, No Ghosts. No Afterlife.
    Its not a phase. Its education. I appreciate everything I see . from stars to ocean life to spiders webs and wonder at the complexity of things..
    Wow. Just WOW.

    I 100% know you're wrong..


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    #715
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    "Correct" in the sense of "the output the programmer wants".

    Running with this thought, there is of course the possiblity that the outcome the programmer wants is irreligion/atheism.

    Still, if we think that the outcome God wants is either one particular religion or is irreligion, given the diversity of positions on religious belief that we observe the conclusion must be that God isn't a very good coder. Is that blasphemy?

    The Abrahamic God works in mysterious ways don't you know.

    We're all programmed one way or the other, we've no control over the next random thought we have, but I suppose the majority of people can control the outcome of the thought.
    And not act out in a way that can harm themselves or others.

    Apart from accident's that are not caused by stupidity or lack of lustre for common sense.


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    #716
    Elwood_Blues
    Registered Users Posts: 350 ✭✭Elwood_Blues


    Pauliedragon wrote: »
    I think a lot of people take comfort in the belief that when we die it's not the end and we just move on somewhere else to meet loved ones who have moved on previously. If that gives someone a sense of wellbeing then good luck to them I reckon.

    If there is an afterlife, I never understood what's the point of this life then. Why not cut out the middleman and go straight there..


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    #717
    Parsnips
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭Parsnips


    nthclare wrote: »
    We'll Pagans think like that, but the hardline Atheists are obsessed with some dude from the middle east with a beard lol and the Catholic church.

    ????
    Any "normal" Athiest I know tends to just get on with it as most religious folk take serious umbridge to someone questioning their believes but then seem to think its OK for them to do it in reverse.
    And the conversation is only surrounding Roman Cath due to it being the dominant Custom.
    I know many people ( most from the silver haired brigade) that religion is a massive comfort and I really dont begrudge them that. Each to their own. As long as someone is good and respects others they can do what they want IMO.

    I will say... If one of my siblings or kids died and at the funeral the priest said God wanted them or decided their time was up Im afraid I could not be responsible for my actions.


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    #718
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Parsnips wrote: »
    ????
    Any "normal" Athiest I know tends to just get on with it as most religious folk take serious umbridge to someone questioning their believes but then seem to think its OK for them to do it in reverse.
    And the conversation is only surrounding Roman Cath due to it being the dominant Custom.
    I know many people ( most from the silver haired brigade) that religion is a massive comfort and I really dont begrudge them that. Each to their own. As long as someone is good and respects others they can do what they want IMO.

    I will say... If one of my siblings or kids died and at the funeral the priest said God wanted them or decided their time was up Im afraid I could not be responsible for my actions.

    I hear you but you'll get a lot of strident Atheists on this forum and just as strident Agnostics like myself here too.

    So I'm not going to say I'm a great debater, I can be quite stuck in my ways, and get infracted now and again but I always apologize for my headstrong attitude.

    There's a very strict regime here of moderation and it's tricky sometimes ◉‿◉

    I don't like the Catholic church my self but the debate's here are always focused on the Christian faith.


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    #719
    Parsnips
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭Parsnips


    Roman Catholicism is a huge huge business. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

    As someone said above. Wherever the cross went , it caused misery and suffering.
    Its not the people though its the organization. As they say... Dont hate the player hate the game.

    Everyone would be better off just being a Jedi like myself :)


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    #720
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Parsnips wrote: »
    Roman Catholicism is a huge huge business. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

    As someone said above. Wherever the cross went , it caused misery and suffering.
    Its not the people though its the organization. As they say... Dont hate the player hate the game.

    Everyone would be better off just being a Jedi like myself :)

    I'm a bit of a grey Jedi, the church is the sith lol

    Pope palatine has retired now, but I reckon he is plotting away against the Jedi 😂


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    #721
    Plode
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭Plode


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    You were doing ok until your last sentence... even if you believed without question that a god existed, what reason is there to believe that any of the many competing religions is correct?

    Because the Roman Church has this stuff down to a science.

    If they don't know, after centuries of study, who does?


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