TD resigns.

MouseTail · 27-03-2014 12:48pm

Campaigning against homelessness, cuts in RA, or protection for private tenants whose LLs have gone into recievership I can understand, but against the Property Tax? Its just bizarre.

And that yellow background hurts my eyes.

golfball37 · 27-03-2014 2:53pm

Godge wrote: »

One of the big failures of socialism is that it very quickly forgets about the people at the bottom and concentrates on those in the middle who are actually relatively well-off.

Ireland is one of the best examples of this. The property tax is the most socialist tax ever introduced in Ireland because those at the bottom - homeless, renting, local authority etc. - do not pay it. Yet we have many so-called socialists opposing it.

Its actually a good point. Another example would be the way the Unions who are meant to be protecting low paid workers seem to concentrate these days on relatively well paid civil servants when it comes to picking a fight with employers.

Socialism ultimately fails because of the first principle of economics- Consumer wants and needs are infinite.

I'd consider myself a psuedo socialist in theory but I know deep down it doesn't work.

Godge · 28-03-2014 4:46pm

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

1. The implication is that socialists do not campaign to end homelessness - this is utter nonsense - it is the neo-liberal elites that cause and perpetrate homelessness
2. most tenants have had the property tax passed onto them with rent increases
3. local authorities have the authority to pass on the property tax to their tenants, cut back on other councils services or a combination of both - either way tenants suffer through increased rents or worsening services.

The Anti-Austerity Alliance campaigning against homelessness and the growing problem of families losing their homes because of cutbacks in rent allowance -

http://antiausterityalliance.ie/2014/03/protest-rent-controls-now/

http://antiausterityalliance.ie/2014/03/homeless-families-protest-dail-debate/

http://antiausterityalliance.ie/2014/03/protest-marie-antoinette-attitude-towards-homeless/

All very worthy and socialist but opposing the property tax is not socialist.

Looking for increases in the property tax is socialist, looking for higher rates of property tax for higher value houses (like progressive income tax rates) is socialist.

I could not vote for any party promising to reduce or abolish the property tax.

golfball37 wrote: »

Its actually a good point. Another example would be the way the Unions who are meant to be protecting low paid workers seem to concentrate these days on relatively well paid civil servants when it comes to picking a fight with employers.

Socialism ultimately fails because of the first principle of economics- Consumer wants and needs are infinite.

I'd consider myself a psuedo socialist in theory but I know deep down it doesn't work.

Except, and to give the unions credit, the last round of pay cuts in the public sector only cut salaries above €65k and pensions above €32.5k. Lower salaries and pensions were spared.

Unions are also strong in areas such as retail where pay rates are lower.

Jolly Red Giant · 28-03-2014 5:28pm

golfball37 wrote: »

I'd consider myself a psuedo socialist in theory but I know deep down it doesn't work.

It you want to see an economic, political and social system that doesn't work just have a look around you.

And your deep down feelings are irrelevant to what type of society can function to provide for the needs of the vast majority of the population rather than the needs of the few.

Godge wrote: »

All very worthy and socialist but opposing the property tax is not socialist.

Looking for increases in the property tax is socialist, looking for higher rates of property tax for higher value houses (like progressive income tax rates) is socialist.

Imposing a tax on the homes of working class people is not a socialist measure. Imposing a mansion tax as part of a wider wealth tax would be.

Godge wrote: »

I could not vote for any party promising to reduce or abolish the property tax.

By extension - you are willing to vote for a party that imposes a home tax, water charges, cuts in jobs and services, USC, pension levies, health tax under the guise of UHI etc. :rolleyes:

Godge · 28-03-2014 7:29pm

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Imposing a tax on the homes of working class people is not a socialist measure. Imposing a mansion tax as part of a wider wealth tax would be.

Yes, it absolutely is. A house sitting there not contributing should be taxed. That means less tax needed on workers.

Many people inherited their homes free of inheritance tax, why shouldn't they pay a property tax?

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

By extension - you are willing to vote for a party that imposes a home tax, water charges, cuts in jobs and services, USC, pension levies, health tax under the guise of UHI etc. :rolleyes:

I will vote for a party that promises to reduce income tax, that promises to increase taxes on capital and inheritance including an increase in property tax, that introduces more usage charges so that those who waster water and don't recycle pay more, a party that promises to reform and improve public services and funds them appropriately.

You can't get more socialist than that. A pity that none of our parties know how to be a real socialist.

Jolly Red Giant · 28-03-2014 8:26pm

Godge wrote: »

Yes, it absolutely is. A house sitting there not contributing should be taxed.

A home is contributing to society - it is providing accomodation for a family - a baisc human right.

Godge wrote: »

That means less tax needed on workers.

The problem is that the home tax hasn't meant less tax for workers - it has meant less tax for the rich

Godge wrote: »

Many people inherited their homes free of inheritance tax, why shouldn't they pay a property tax?

as above - a roof over your head is a basic human right - that is the case for parents and for their children.

Godge wrote: »

I will vote for a party that promises to reduce income tax, that promises to increase taxes on capital and inheritance including an increase in property tax, that introduces more usage charges so that those who waster water and don't recycle pay more, a party that promises to reform and improve public services and funds them appropriately.

No problem with capital and inheritance taxes for the rich - I would argue for increased income tax fo those earning more than €100K. Water charges do not lead to conservation - they lead to increased taxes and privatisation. Just like the bin tax - councils are now paying more to take care of indiscriminately dumped rubbish than it cost to collect rubbish for free. Yes recycling asnd conservation should occur - but that will happen through example and education - not throuhg punitive tax measures. people in Britain pay water charges yet the level of water usage is the same as here without charges. Irish Water have already stated that if people do not use enough water they will increase the charges to compensate for loss of income. If you really want to save water then fix the leaking mains network and introduce widespread greywater collection.

Godge wrote: »

You can't get more socialist than that. A pity that none of our parties know how to be a real socialist.

You are basing your preception of 'socialism' on a false premise - on a hotch-potch of measures that are based on a paper exercise rather than related to the reality of working class people.

Godge · 29-03-2014 12:27am

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

A home is contributing to society - it is providing accomodation for a family - a baisc human right.

You are basing your preception of 'socialism' on a false premise - on a hotch-potch of measures that are based on a paper exercise rather than related to the reality of working class people.

The only reason a real socialist would oppose a property tax would be if all property is owned by the State.

You see there are no real socialists in Ireland. If there were, they would be calling for an increased property tax with the money used to pay for extra social housing for the homeless and those unable to rent a place suitable for themselves.

Unfortunately, Irish people are intrinsically selfish, and have an irrational devotion to owning property, probably only equalled in the US, it is certainly not a European trait. That is why socialism, in its true European form has never taken off in Ireland.

Good loser · 29-03-2014 12:33am

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

It you want to see an economic, political and social system that doesn't work just have a look around you.

And your deep down feelings are irrelevant to what type of society can function to provide for the needs of the vast majority of the population rather than the needs of the few.

Imposing a tax on the homes of working class people is not a socialist measure. Imposing a mansion tax as part of a wider wealth tax would be.

By extension - you are willing to vote for a party that imposes a home tax, water charges, cuts in jobs and services, USC, pension levies, health tax under the guise of UHI etc. :rolleyes:

You throw words around carelessly which makes them meaningless. Sloganeering rather than commonsense.
What are working class people? Are the social welfare classes included? Is a millionaire lotto winner (or jockey) working class? Is your idea that anyone working class shouldn't pay a property tax? What about a guy with a corner shop or a workshop? Should he pay property tax? Such people have continuously since 1852. When you get into power you will have to deal with all these issues to frame legislation.

You make a good case for putting back in Fianna Fail. Because they will abolish all those nasty taxes you list (plus car tax).

Grudaire · 01-04-2014 1:37pm

It'll be an interesting bye-election given the backdrop of recovery vs increasing taxes..

It's a hard one to call, given the big split in the left vote between candidates. I think Nulty's actions (resigning and being a bit :rolleyes: inappropriate) will damage the chances of catching undecided votes that might have otherwise swung left.

I would hope that O'Gorman can build on his vote from the previous bye-election, he's a hard-working candidate with a strong background in politics. And while I do not expect a Green candidate to win in the bye I think it's very important to remember the dangers of climate change, and bad planning policies.

Godge · 01-04-2014 2:37pm

Grudaire wrote: »

It'll be an interesting bye-election given the backdrop of recovery vs increasing taxes..

It's a hard one to call, given the big split in the left vote between candidates. I think Nulty's actions (resigning and being a bit :rolleyes: inappropriate) will damage the chances of catching undecided votes that might have otherwise swung left.

I would hope that O'Gorman can build on his vote from the previous bye-election, he's a hard-working candidate with a strong background in politics. And while I do not expect a Green candidate to win in the bye I think it's very important to remember the dangers of climate change, and bad planning policies.

An issue such as where is our electrified DART rail that we were promised is one that a Green candidate could capitalise on.

TD resigns.

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