2010 MLB Postseason Chat

Firehen · 24-10-2010 3:53pm

jack presley wrote: »

There's always going to be 'what ifs' and 'if onlys' at the end of a season but the trading Lee to get Halladay question is going to be the big issue in Philadelphia this off-season

After the season Halladay has had, I think Amaro can be justified in his decision.

Sure, Lee has been dominant in the postseason, but he struggled initially after his trade to Texas whereas Doc was consistent for the entire season with the occasional moment of brilliance.

I'm no Philly fan, but I am a fan of Roy Halladay and I really hope he wins the Cy to recognise a great year in a new league.

theoldalfer · 24-10-2010 4:55pm

tumbling_dice wrote: »

Yeah there are, but in this case, the issue is simply "why?". There was no reason to make that trade. They gave up a lot for no discernible benefit. They had just watched Lee dominate in the postseason. They couldn't have had questions about his ability. They'll still be in next year, but they could have Kyle Drabek coming up next year too and they don't.

ah come on! 21 wins regular season, a perfect game, one walk away from an other in the playoff's. I don't think they gave up anything with Doc. look it could have went either way, the Phillies lost 3 of those games by 1 run. The team didn't bat well. Most of the team are signed up for next year apart from Jayson Werth so roll on 2011.

8-10 · 24-10-2010 7:00pm

Jesus christ guys, the Phillies lost because they couldn't find their bats, not because of a pitching trade. No RBI's for Howard in the postseason? 1 HR for Utley all postseason, none in the NLCS? Massive slump for Jimmy Rollins contributing very little? Ibanez?

The spine of the past 2 world series teams is still there, but apart from Jayson Werth at times, they didn't support their pitchers.

You can go on and on all you like about Halladay for Lee and the Phillies pitching staff but whoever was on the mound wouldn't matter without bat support. Make no mistake, the Phillies are not absent from the WS because of their pitching staff.

tumbling_dice · 24-10-2010 7:33pm

Howard hit over 300 in the postseason so his lack of RBIs was more likely down to people not getting on ahead of him. As for the spine of the last two WS teams still being there... Eh, Rollins is a shadow of his former self, Howard is already starting to decline, Werth is gone, Ibanez is nearing uselessness, Victorino is so-so. Only Utley can be reasonably said to still be in his prime. They have Dom Brown to come in, sure, but he'll be a rookie next year and there are no guarantees he is ever good enough to replace Werth.

There is no way the Halladay trade can be justified. Lee struggled for three weeks with a bad back. That's it. He was incredible most of the season. A perfect game is lovely and all but it's still only one win. Lee put up historic K/BB numbers, in the AL too. You might argue that Halladay is better, but it's certainly not by much, and there's no way on his own he can provide more value than Drabek and Lee combined. That's before we mention Michael Taylor, who is weak enough but still, he should make the majors and that's not to be thrown away.

They should still contend next year, mainly because they have Hamels, Halladay and Oswalt again but there's a bit chance the entire franchise is somewhere like where the Cubs are now in three/four years and the reality is that the Halladay trade will have have contributed towards that significantly. I'm all for winning now, when you've got the chance, but no one will ever convince me that having Halladay rather than Lee seriously improves your chances of winning.

As for the Howard contract... It's mind-blowing, arguably as stupid as the A-Rod contract, and likely to seriously hurt the Phillies in years to come.

tumbling_dice · 24-10-2010 7:35pm

Kyle Drabek is probably at worst a No. 3 starter. They don't grow on trees.

8-10 · 25-10-2010 1:29am

tumbling_dice wrote: »

You might argue that Halladay is better, but it's certainly not by much, and there's no way on his own he can provide more value than Drabek and Lee combined. That's before we mention Michael Taylor, who is weak enough but still, he should make the majors and that's not to be thrown away.

But it wasn't Halladay on his own, was it? You miss the point of the trade, Phillies sent 4 prospects to Cleveland to get Lee and needed to replenish the farm with top-level farm players. They even admitted they could have had both for a year but they hurt from losing the prospects and if they want to look long-term, they had to let Lee go.

You should be arguing that Roy Halladay, JC Ramirez, Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies and $6million cash cannot provide more value. Gillies in particular looks decent I think.

That's before we go into the fact that Cliff Lee was never going to stick around too long, about to sign for his 5th franchise club since early last year in the off season. There's no way he would have signed an extension. Halladay's deal is for 4 full seasons (1 down) and an option on 2014.

I'm not saying that it was an overwhelmingly positive trade, but it wasn't overly negative certainly. They still have the ace pitcher, they had lost 4 top prospects to get Lee, now they have a few more good ones, they will probably have him for longer, and yes, he's a better pitcher overall and in my opinion a marginly (still a pitcher at the end of the day) better batter too (his RBI in Game 1 of the NLDS was overshadowed by his no-no, but it was a very important hit in the game). And they got a couple mil cash too!

As for your no 3 remark, I think Oswalt coming in for Happ strengthened the rotation anyway. I do agree wholeheartedly with your opinion on Howard's contract. Ludicrous!!

8-10 · 25-10-2010 1:35am

tumbling_dice wrote: »

I'm all for winning now, when you've got the chance, but no one will ever convince me that having Halladay rather than Lee seriously improves your chances of winning.

That's the thing, the trade was long-term. Seriously I lived in Philadelphia all off-season last year, it was definitely not about 'winning now'. If that was the plan, they would have kept Lee and signed Halladay anyway for money and prospects. A lot of fans were annoyed too at the time, but they said that if Halladay is as good as Lee then it's a good deal. Most people in the city I knew had never seen Roy pitch before the trade.

MickShamrock · 25-10-2010 10:45am

A-Rod finally leads Rangers to World Series! :pac:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/arod-finally-leads-rangers-to-world-series,18320/

tumbling_dice · 25-10-2010 11:55am

I don't any of the prospects they got are close to what they gave up. Gillies looked ok at A ball but he was hardly dominating and he struggled at AA this year, albeit in limited time. He's potentially ok, but is he even likely to be as good as Taylor, who isn't really even that good? I don't know that he is. The other two are 'pen fodder, at best, and probably not even that. So you're filling out your system, rather than stocking it.

Drabek is right there, he's going to be in the Blue Jays rotation next year. The Phils could be sending out Lee, Oswalt, Hamels, Blanton and Drabek next year and still have Jamie Moyer knocking about for when someone feels nostalgic. Not that they have a bad rotation next year, I know, but still.

Maybe Lee wouldn't sign an extension. We don't really know. I don't see why he wouldn't. He made it quite clear in the summer that he's sick of being bounced around and wanted to settle somewhere for a while. I find it hard to believe that the Phillies couldn't have locked him down for four years. I think Amaro genuinely thought Halladay was that much better.

And, eh, he's not.

Look, it's not the worst trade of all time. It's not the worst thing Amaro has done. But I still think it was a mistake.

If I was a Phillies fan I'd hate Ruben Amaro Jnr. Hate him with passion. The man seems demented. He has no strategy. Or, at least, none that I can see.

jack presley · 25-10-2010 12:56pm

I think over the course of a season, Halladay is much better than Lee but for some reason Lee steps it up in the playoffs. To be fair, this was RH's first playoffs and he didn't do too badly either though so just think how good a tandem that would have been if they had them both.

I know the hitting let them down against the Giants but the Pittsburgh Pirates line up would probably win if they had the trio of Halladay-Lee-Hamels pitching!

Over the past 3 years they've won a World Series, an NL Pennant and got to the NLCS so the Phillies front office isn't doing too bad. Maybe their fans are just getting greedy!

Firehen · 25-10-2010 1:06pm

His policies got them within 2 games of 3 World Series appearences in a row. That, no matter how its achieved, is to be admired.

Sure, he's made some questionable decisions with regards the future of the franchise that have already been mentioned in this thread and have more money to play with than most teams.

In saying that, they'll still be strong favourites in the NL East next year, and there's time to sort out the farm before the core of their very talented team needs to be replaced.

There is a tendancy of some teams to focus too much on the future, in my opinion. Phillies have focused on the present and its working quite well for them.

tumbling_dice · 25-10-2010 2:29pm

Well that's where we disagree, Jack. I think Lee is every bit as good as Halladay, postseason, regular season, spring training. He doesn't have a comparable career, but the guy's got some skills now.

And, sorry, I'm not backing down on Ruben. He was only appointed GM the day after they won in '08. He was assistant GM for ten years before that so it's not like he gets no credit, he was involved. But consider that since he's got the big job, there's been the Ibanez deal, the Halladay trade (I know, I know!) and the Howard contract. I know they got Lee in that time too, they got Oswalt, Polanco was a decent signing. Overall, I think he's done a lot more harm than good.

But I don't like the Phillies so what do I care?!

I agree that some teams are too focused on the future. Flags fly forever. But I can't see how Ruben was concentrating on anything. Howard's contract wasn't even up this year. I know everyone is with me on that one but still. Beyond mental.

Firehen · 26-10-2010 2:02pm

Yeah, the Howard contract was a bit silly, but he's a hero in Philadelphia and he's still one of the best power hitters in the league. As a Padre fan, it upsets me 'cos it all but ends out chances of re-signing Adrian Gonzalez. If Howard can get that kind of contract, Gonzalez should be able to as well. Just not in San Diego.

As for Halladay Vs Lee, I still think they made the right choice. Doc is a Philly for the next 4 years, probably. Lee was an unknown factor. I think we'd all be surprised if he ended up anywhere but The Bronx next year. Getting Doc before the Yankees could start a bidding war was a good move, in my opinion.

Uriel. · 28-10-2010 9:52am

Anyone watch the game last night?

Pretty wrecked this morning after staying up for it.

Looked like it was gonna be a disastrous start for the Giants - they were all over the place in the first two innings. Rangers missed a good opportunity last night and Washington is really going to have to consider Vlad's position at Right Field in defence. He looked terribly slow to get to the ball all night.

Roll on tonight.!

8-10 · 28-10-2010 5:28pm

Uriel. wrote: »

Anyone watch the game last night?

Pretty wrecked this morning after staying up for it.

Looked like it was gonna be a disastrous start for the Giants - they were all over the place in the first two innings. Rangers missed a good opportunity last night and Washington is really going to have to consider Vlad's position at Right Field in defence. He looked terribly slow to get to the ball all night.

Roll on tonight.!

Yep, stayed up for it alright. Very entertaining game, if a little ridiculous at times. Gurerro at RF was a bit of a disaster but even Andrus struggled defensively (nerves?). Add in the fact that 2 ace pitchers looked surprisingly hittable and it was a great watch.

Not sure I can do tonight as I fly to New York first thing tomorrow but if I were a betting man, and I may be, I would fancy Giants again. Matt Cain is awesome and Rangers will definitely be rocked by last night after being favourites. I'm sticking to my Giants in 5 prediction. Unfortunately looks like I might miss the rest of the series.

Go Giants!

jack presley · 28-10-2010 9:53pm

Just watched a recording of it (can't do the weekday all-nighters!). I had to avoid the internet all day to avoid the score and had to rudely stop someone from accidentally telling me the score as she thought I had watched it (God only knows how she heard it).

Just shows how little the 'experts' know. Wasn't this supposed to be a 2-1 game or something?

cheesehead · 29-10-2010 8:50pm

Thought maybe you baseball fans might get a kick out of seeing Steve Perry and 43,000 friends who never "Stop Believing". I thought he should have better seats...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P-DpMFd8_A

Kinda32 · 31-10-2010 2:44am

Steve Perry seems to have fallen on hard times!!! Great vid... The stadium is seriously good, if anyone gets a chance they should go to a game there, couldnt praise it high enough.. p.s Texas showing some life... lead heading to the ninth, time for feliz

Kinda32 · 31-10-2010 2:48am

Pat Burrell needs to be benched.. really quickly.. looks like the guy the rays had earlier in the season..

Kinda32 · 31-10-2010 2:52am

.. and Texas back in this WS.. now if they only decide to go with Cliff Lee on short rest in Game 4. It has to be better than Tommy Hunter. and you get Lee again in Game 7 if it goes that far. Surely a no brainer..

Firehen · 31-10-2010 10:02am

I agree. They'd be mad not to go with Lee and I reckon they will unless he's hurt.

Giants only need one win in Texas, though, and Lee can't start both. I can't see the Rangers taking both games back in San Fran.

tumbling_dice · 31-10-2010 4:44pm

I'm sure they'd start Lee if they could. He must just not be comfortable on short rest. Anyway, best to have him in top condition for game 5. They should be starting Holland tonight, notwithstanding his nightmare the other night. He's still a lot better than Hunter.

Kinda32 · 31-10-2010 7:29pm

Doesnt say much for Lee if he's not willing to go on short rest.. Its the World Series after all.. Not a horse type mentality is it. Watch now Hunter will go and throw a gem!!

Firehen · 01-11-2010 12:33pm

Or maybe not.

Even if Lee throws a perfect game now, I don't think it'll make any difference. What are the odds on the Rangers winning one game in AT&T Park, let alone two?

Manic Moran · 01-11-2010 10:09pm

Quite the party atmosphere here in the Bay Area. I'm over on the East side, but still plenty of Orange.

SF has made a deal with Fox to televise at least tonight's game on a big jumbotron in the Civic Centre park. If the Giants don't win today, they may or may not have a repeat tomorrow.

NTM

paulelectronica · 01-11-2010 11:35pm

I`d say there`s some atmosphere over there. Id like to see Giants win the world series ,

gerire · 02-11-2010 2:30am

This is what we were expecting game 1 from lincecum and lee;excellent pitching duel

gerire · 02-11-2010 3:36am

San Fran World Champs; and deserved too. Great final game

paulelectronica · 02-11-2010 8:33pm

Good game it was indeed , disappointing season for the Mets though . Glad to see that the Giants won the world series, a team who have never won it in San Francisco .

Manic Moran · 03-11-2010 5:38am

Glanced at the Chronicle this morning when I got my coffee. The type editors had reached for the "End of the World Font", there was nothing but 'Giants Win It' on the top half of the paper.

NTM

jack presley · 03-11-2010 9:37pm

paulelectronica wrote: »

disappointing season for the Mets though .

And it isn't going to get much better next season! OK there's a new GM who apprently is pretty good but there's a lot of dead contracts they won't be able to shift (Castillo, Perez) and they're still going to have to pay Minaya his few million. So the payroll's going to be down on this year's and they aren't going to be in the Cliff Lee sweepstakes either. I don't know for sure but I don't think they've much chance of getting any of the other premium free agents.

Duckytech · 17-11-2010 1:15am

Rookies of the year:

Giants catcher Buster Posey and Rangers closer Feliz:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5808278

Firehen · 18-11-2010 5:01pm

Posey was a great choice. He's gonna be a top player for years, as long as he doesn't get hurt.

Feliz, I think, was lucky that he was in the AL. Loads of great NL candidates. Some decent ones in the AL, too, but not nearly as strong a group. Garcia, for example, would have won the AL ROTY, but was nowhere near winning the NL award.

Glad to see Doc winning the Cy he richly deserved, too.

jack presley · 19-11-2010 7:11pm

I thought both Cy Yong awards were correct. I know people are giving out because Felix only had 13 wins but it's not his fault he was on such a bad offensive team. There is too much emphasis on wins for pitchers I think. I think in a lot of Felix's losses, he only gave up 1 or 2 runs.

Firehen · 23-11-2010 5:39pm

Ah yeah, Felix was defo the right choice. Wins show nothing to do with the pitcher's actual performance.

Surprised Votto won the MVP so convincingly. Deserved to win it, if you ask me, but I thought Pujols would have got a few more votes.

tumbling_dice · 25-11-2010 12:34am

jack presley wrote: »

I thought both Cy Yong awards were correct. I know people are giving out because Felix only had 13 wins but it's not his fault he was on such a bad offensive team. There is too much emphasis on wins for pitchers I think. I think in a lot of Felix's losses, he only gave up 1 or 2 runs.

I agree. Some people, however, are still not getting it.

http://deadspin.com/5696462/crazy-old-coots-still-bemoaning-felix-hernandezs-cy-young-award

2010 MLB Postseason Chat

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