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Fencing questions

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  • 02-08-2020 10:02pm
    #1
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,768 ✭✭✭


    I am going to doing alot (well alot for us) of fencing over the next 12 months. Currently putting together the first shopping list for an outfarm. Plan on getting the contractor to drive the strainers and then drive the posts myself with he sledge/front loader.
    Looking at 25 strainers and 120-150 posts. Barbed wire 2 strands (never saw the point of the bottom strand?).

    Questions for the masses.


    1) Which posts? I am going to price PDM, Octo and Agriknives (if they deliver). It seems the current thinking is Agriknives. Open to other suggestions.

    2) Do agriknives deliver?
    3) Are 5-7 inch strainers "big" enough?
    3b) How much is a typical strainer, local place has 7ft 5-7inch PDM ones for 30 euro. Seems expensive. Was expecting 15-20euro a piece.

    4) How deep should a 7 foot strainer be driven? I am thinking down to 4.5 foot?
    5) Are stays crucial for strainers?

    6) What depth should a standard 6 ft post be driven to?
    7) What height from the ground should the top row of barbed wire be?
    8) What distance down from the top row should the second row sit?
    9) Distance between posts? Will I get away with 6 meters? I don't want to be revisiting the fencing for at least 5 years other than to retension the wire and replace a staple.


«13

Comments

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    #2
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,486 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Post driver never a sledge, sledge just splits the post and it will rot in half the time.


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    #3
    paddysdream
    Registered Users Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭paddysdream


    _Brian wrote: »
    Post driver never a sledge, sledge just splits the post and it will rot in half the time.

    Sledge is a solid waste of time and effort driving anything other than a single stake to replace a broken one and even at that would usually put on driver to do it.
    Drove 200 plus stakes (6ft. octo ones)last week in a place.All perfect apart from the one where couldn't reach it with the driver(middle of ditch where fence was continous in 2 different fields.
    Split the first stake totally and dumped it.Second one was not much better as it was starting to mushroom but left it alone after a couple of thumps.
    Sledge is only good for tapping in the jenny.


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    #4
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,143 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    If it's a track machine is putting down the strainers, let him push down the stakes too if your ground isn't too hard. If the work is largely laid out it won't take long.


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    #5
    paddysdream
    Registered Users Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭paddysdream


    893bet wrote: »
    I am going to doing alot (well alot for us) of fencing over the next 12 months. Currently putting together the first shopping list for an outfarm. Plan on getting the contractor to drive the strainers and then drive the posts myself with he sledge/front loader.
    Looking at 25 strainers and 120-150 posts. Barbed wire 2 strands (never saw the point of the bottom strand?).

    Questions for the masses.


    1) Which posts? I am going to price PDM, Octo and Agriknives (if they deliver). It seems the current thinking is Agriknives. Open to other suggestions.

    2) Do agriknives deliver?
    3) Are 5-7 inch strainers "big" enough?
    3b) How much is a typical strainer, local place has 7ft 5-7inch PDM ones for 30 euro. Seems expensive. Was expecting 15-20euro a piece.

    4) How deep should a 7 foot strainer be driven? I am thinking down to 4.5 foot?
    5) Are stays crucial for strainers?

    6) What depth should a standard 6 ft post be driven to?
    7) What height from the ground should the top row of barbed wire be?
    8) What distance down from the top row should the second row sit?
    9) Distance between posts? Will I get away with 6 meters? I don't want to be revisiting the fencing for at least 5 years other than to retension the wire and replace a staple.


    If you are getting someone in to drive strainers might as well get the stakes drove as well.25 strainers could take as long as 120 stakes or even a bit more if ground is tough.Couple of taps with post driver for a stake compared to a couple of minutes pounding for a strainer at times.

    1)Depends on price a lot of the time plus whats available.Octo good but look rubbish if driven crooked.PDM good but not the quality they once were.No idea re Agri Knives ones ,only seen them on Donedeal.

    2)No idea

    3)Should be ok for 2 strands of barbed.Prefer 8ft ones esp. at ends.7ft. are more usually used as turners ie where the fence turns to follow the ditch.

    3b)Again you get what you pay for.Seen 7ft "treated" ones I used a few weeks ago.Told they were 15 each.They were rough enough and reckon 5 years will see them out.It was a single strand electric fence for a dairy man on a leased farm so usual "no expense spared" job as you can imagine.Drew the line at using the MT wire he landed with though.30 Euro doesnt sound excessive for a good 8ft.Bit less for 7ft.

    4) Usually all intermediate strainers are driven to same depth as stakes with end strainers about 4 inches above wire but thats just me.Looks a wee bit better.
    That said have driven a few with the chainsaw both this early Summer and 2 years ago esp. 9ft EBS pole offcuts alongside a ditch with numerous trees.

    5)Not really necessary for 2 strands of barbed.

    6)About an inch above top strand of wire so thats fence height dependent.

    7)About 40-44 inches.

    8)13/14 inches under the top one.Another strand of barbed wont break the bank esp. if you are doing it yourself.2 strands not a lot of fence and not too common around here apart from a temporary job esp. on rented land.That said its nearly all sheepwire I do.Any barbed only are usually 4 strands.

    9)5m about right but another bit no harm.
    There should be no need to retension wire at all unless an end strainer breaks.Thats using HT barbed wire.MT wire is worse that useless and actually harder to erect.Wont strain correctly and will sag in a year or two no matter what you do.


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    #6
    hopeso
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭hopeso


    Any of the stakes you mentioned should be sound. Just don’t believe all the hype you’ll be told about the Agri knife ones when you go to price them....McNamara in Cork have good stakes, and would be well worth pricing too. They deliver nationwide.
    As already said, don’t even consider the sledge for driving them. Get someone with a post driver if possible. It’s way ahead of a machine for driving them, especially the strainers. I would consider stays for strainers crucial.


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    #7
    J.O. Farmer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭J.O. Farmer


    _Brian wrote: »
    Post driver never a sledge, sledge just splits the post and it will rot in half the time.

    A rubber mallet doesn't damage the post either but when the post driver is in use it.


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    #8
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,699 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    God, don't use a sledge....pure hardship. Use a bar first to find a hole free of rocks for the stake. It will avoid a lot of fustration with the post driver. hitting stones and you'll split them and drive them sideways.

    'When I was a boy we were serfs, slave minded. Anyone who came along and lifted us out of that belittling, I looked on them as Gods.' - Dan Breen



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    #9
    3 the square
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭3 the square


    Goldcrop sell stakes nowadays there are imported from eastern Europe not sure if there octo or not they look good.


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    #10
    mr.stonewall
    Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭mr.stonewall


    Problem with stakes from this country is that they are fast growing Sitka. The space between the rings is larger than the continental timber, this letting more water soak in. The soft timber between the rings is called spring wood and is very soft usually grown from March to june. If buying native always try to get a larger diameter post. Weight up the cost of a lighter imported post vs a larger diameter native post.

    Secondly stakes could be hard to get with the reduction of felling licences


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    #11
    finbar82
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭finbar82


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    God, don't use a sledge....pure hardship. Use a bar first to find a hole free of rocks for the stake. It will avoid a lot of fustration with the post driver. hitting stones and you'll split them and drive them sideways.

    Father in law uses a big rock to drive stakes, only if he can’t find his bendy bar, (Heavy duty bent silage tine) he is the ambassador for hardship right enough.


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    #12
    memorystick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭memorystick


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    God, don't use a sledge....pure hardship. Use a bar first to find a hole free of rocks for the stake. It will avoid a lot of fustration with the post driver. hitting stones and you'll split them and drive them sideways.

    I bought a hand held stake driver. The pipe with the handles. It’ll knock the tits off me. 15kgs I think


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    #13
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭tanko


    memorystick wrote: »
    I bought a hand held stake driver. The pipe with the handles. It’ll knock the tits off me. 15kgs I think

    Lol, it’ll knock your teeth out too if you’re not careful with it.


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    #14
    SuperTortoise
    Registered Users Posts: 2,955 ✭✭✭SuperTortoise


    3m between stakes, put 3 line of wire on, running a 3rd line is no hardship, about 10 inches between lines.
    I've been told the oct post are the business and although i have'nt used any the next bit of fencing done here they will be used.

    Go big enough with strainers, they make or break a good fence, use them in corners of field and where there is a kink in the ditch or a change in elevation.

    Invest in a haynes strainer, it's the cat's meow.
    If you have a lot to do, get a 13ton machine in to drive stakes and strainers.

    When pulling the wire start with the bottom line and work up, the bottom line will loosen a touch when the top line is pulled but the top line is more important.

    Don't drive home the staples, leave them so the next poor sod can get at them with a fencing pliers.


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    #15
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,768 ✭✭✭893bet


    _Brian wrote: »
    Post driver never a sledge, sledge just splits the post and it will rot in half the time.
    paddysdream wrote: »
    Sledge is a solid waste of time and effort driving anything other than a single stake to replace a broken one and even at that would usually put on driver to do it.
    Drove 200 plus stakes (6ft. octo ones)last week in a place.All perfect apart from the one where couldn't reach it with the driver(middle of ditch where fence was continous in 2 different fields.
    Split the first stake totally and dumped it.Second one was not much better as it was starting to mushroom but left it alone after a couple of thumps.
    Sledge is only good for tapping in the jenny.
    Water John wrote: »
    If it's a track machine is putting down the strainers, let him push down the stakes too if your ground isn't too hard. If the work is largely laid out it won't take long.
    J.O. Farmer wrote: »
    A rubber mallet doesn't damage the post either but when the post driver is in use it.
    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    God, don't use a sledge....pure hardship. Use a bar first to find a hole free of rocks for the stake. It will avoid a lot of fustration with the post driver. hitting stones and you'll split them and drive them sideways.
    memorystick wrote: »
    I bought a hand held stake driver. The pipe with the handles. It’ll knock the tits off me. 15kgs I think




    So dont use the sledge....Probably still will for the posts. Will be mostly front loader.



    Will depend how long the stainers take. Wont be a track machine. Will need a post driver and tractor for speed and to move between fields easily.



    Alot of the ground will be fairly soft so sledge will be no hassle really.


    Would a piece of timber in between the sledge and post save the posts? e.g. a piece of 4x2 tacked on or some 1 inch ply?


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    #16
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,768 ✭✭✭893bet


    paddysdream wrote: »
    If you are getting someone in to drive strainers might as well get the stakes drove as well.25 strainers could take as long as 120 stakes or even a bit more if ground is tough.Couple of taps with post driver for a stake compared to a couple of minutes pounding for a strainer at times.

    1)Depends on price a lot of the time plus whats available.Octo good but look rubbish if driven crooked.PDM good but not the quality they once were.No idea re Agri Knives ones ,only seen them on Donedeal.

    2)No idea

    3)Should be ok for 2 strands of barbed.Prefer 8ft ones esp. at ends.7ft. are more usually used as turners ie where the fence turns to follow the ditch.

    3b)Again you get what you pay for.Seen 7ft "treated" ones I used a few weeks ago.Told they were 15 each.They were rough enough and reckon 5 years will see them out.It was a single strand electric fence for a dairy man on a leased farm so usual "no expense spared" job as you can imagine.Drew the line at using the MT wire he landed with though.30 Euro doesnt sound excessive for a good 8ft.Bit less for 7ft.

    4) Usually all intermediate strainers are driven to same depth as stakes with end strainers about 4 inches above wire but thats just me.Looks a wee bit better.
    That said have driven a few with the chainsaw both this early Summer and 2 years ago esp. 9ft EBS pole offcuts alongside a ditch with numerous trees.

    5)Not really necessary for 2 strands of barbed.

    6)About an inch above top strand of wire so thats fence height dependent.

    7)About 40-44 inches.

    8)13/14 inches under the top one.Another strand of barbed wont break the bank esp. if you are doing it yourself.2 strands not a lot of fence and not too common around here apart from a temporary job esp. on rented land.That said its nearly all sheepwire I do.Any barbed only are usually 4 strands.

    9)5m about right but another bit no harm.
    There should be no need to retension wire at all unless an end strainer breaks.Thats using HT barbed wire.MT wire is worse that useless and actually harder to erect.Wont strain correctly and will sag in a year or two no matter what you do.


    Thanks for that. I am starting to think 8 foot strainers might be the way to go. Especially if the ground has a tendency to be soft (its bog really) and I dont want to install stays though will have the opportunity in places to tie the strainer back into to ditch in many spots.


    I pulled an old strainer that was gone loose (gate post) today in one of the gap with the goal being to replace with steel.



    Hole filed with water to about a foot from the bottom in minutes. Ditches full near by with floodwater. Put the post back in and was disheartened!


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    #17
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,768 ✭✭✭893bet


    SuperTortoise wrote: »
    3m between stakes, put 3 line of wire on, running a 3rd line is no hardship, about 10 inches between lines.
    I've been told the oct post are the business and although i have'nt used any the next bit of fencing done here they will be used.

    Go big enough with strainers, they make or break a good fence, use them in corners of field and where there is a kink in the ditch or a change in elevation.

    Invest in a haynes strainer, it's the cat's meow.
    If you have a lot to do, get a 13ton machine in to drive stakes and strainers.

    When pulling the wire start with the bottom line and work up, the bottom line will loosen a touch when the top line is pulled but the top line is more important.

    Don't drive home the staples, leave them so the next poor sod can get at them with a fencing pliers.


    3 meters? That very close! I cant afford that. Not with the level of fencing I would like to replace in the next 2 years. I think I need to put the money in the strainers.



    Haynes strainer is pricey. I went the budget option below! Its on route so will report when I have gotten a chance to use it.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hausen-Strainer-Monkey-Tensioner-Stretcher/dp/B01CR9PZOM/ref=asc_df_B01CR9PZOM/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=231879852633&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15913419912477536009&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=20485&hvtargid=pla-422916195809&psc=1


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    #18
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,768 ✭✭✭893bet


    hopeso wrote: »
    Any of the stakes you mentioned should be sound. Just don’t believe all the hype you’ll be told about the Agri knife ones when you go to price them....McNamara in Cork have good stakes, and would be well worth pricing too. They deliver nationwide.
    As already said, don’t even consider the sledge for driving them. Get someone with a post driver if possible. It’s way ahead of a machine for driving them, especially the strainers. I would consider stays for strainers crucial.


    Thanks for that. Are the agriknives ones pricey? As in comparable to PDM?


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    #19
    paddysdream
    Registered Users Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭paddysdream


    Soft ground then 8ft strainers needed.
    3m is very close for stakes,a bit of overkill really.All the stakes do is carry the wire,its the wire itself and the strainers that make the fence.

    True re. not driving home the staples but the reason is to allow the wire to remain tensioned if a stake breaks.If the staples are driven home they hold the wire tight between that stake and the next one but if that stake then breaks the fence sags.
    There should be no need to retension wire if you do it correctly the first day.

    2 strands of barbed wire over sheepwire will test the strainers and props but shouldn't loosen the sheepwire if done properly although it can happen.You would be surprised how much force a pullers can generate with barbed wire.50m is about the max to strain barbed between strainers.Sheepwire you can strain as far as feasible,the longer the better within reason.Longer pull on sheepwire 300m plus,leaves it easier to get a good tension on it.

    To check if barbed wire is tight enough you press it away in the middle of two stakes about halfway between the strainers.Shouldn't really give at all if tight enough.


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    #20
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Are you putting sheep wire up ? Or just 2 strands of barbed ? Can you either put on a strand of electric ,or at least leave room for one ? ,( It'd stop cattle using the barbed as a scratching post ...

    The kiwis tend to keep the posts fairly far apart ,but then use laths every meter or so to keep the wire in place , might be possible to keep your expensive posts reasonably far apart but put 1 or 2 cheapo posts in between ... At least if the cheapo posts rot out in 5 years time you'll only have to replace them .. ( and the rest of the fence will still be well strained ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #21
    Capra
    Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭Capra


    McNamara Fencing do very good stakes. We have their stuff here over 20 years and it's still perfect. A 6 or 7 inch strainer should be fine once it's in the ground far enough it's only 3 rows of wire pulling on it so I wouldn't bother with stays.


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    #22
    memorystick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭memorystick


    893bet wrote: »
    3 meters? That very close! I cant afford that. Not with the level of fencing I would like to replace in the next 2 years. I think I need to put the money in the strainers.



    Haynes strainer is pricey. I went the budget option below! Its on route so will report when I have gotten a chance to use it.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hausen-Strainer-Monkey-Tensioner-Stretcher/dp/B01CR9PZOM/ref=asc_df_B01CR9PZOM/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=231879852633&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15913419912477536009&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=20485&hvtargid=pla-422916195809&psc=1

    Let us know how it goes. €166 for Haynes is saucy for a small farmer.


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    #23
    Good loser
    Registered Users Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭Good loser


    memorystick wrote: »
    Let us know how it goes. €166 for Haynes is saucy for a small farmer.


    Those are 'Hayes' aren't they? That's a mad price. Same as one OP got really - for less than €30.


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    #24
    cj maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,446 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    I thought I read a post that mentions driving with a loader.
    Unless ground is soft a loader will drive F- all.
    Even at that if you hit a stone .....
    Waste of time.
    If you're stuck for money and can't get posts and wire etc to drive with a track machine or post driver at the same time wait till October.
    Make holes with a crow bar and sink them as far as you can with a laden loader and use a post driver,not a sledge.
    Trust me from experience it's a half arsed job


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    #25
    cute geoge
    Registered Users Posts: 2,881 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    you can drive posts in early spring with the loader no problem .I left off the cows on march 19th and was driving posts that week no problem with loader .My ground might not be the driest but for example the tyres were not tracking the ground at the time the post just slide into the ground with the pressure


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    #26
    lakill Farm
    Registered Users Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭lakill Farm


    Either hire a post driver and drive all the posts over a weekend or get the contractor to drive the king posts and the posts.

    You will never drive posts with a sledge or front loader like a post driver

    A track machine is grand except heard a scary story where a lad got a slap of a bucket at this and had to be air ambulanced to Dublin

    I would stay away from Agriknives but that's just because I know the lad :rolleyes:


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    #27
    hopeso
    Registered Users Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭hopeso


    893bet wrote: »
    Thanks for that. Are the agriknives ones pricey? As in comparable to PDM?

    I don’t know, as I never priced them. I won’t be buying anything from him. I’d assume they’d be a similar price to any of the others. Similar quality too, despite what you’ll be told on the phone .......

    Don’t forget that you can reclaim the VAT on all fencing material too.....


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    #28
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    Don't forget to keep all the receipts and claim the vat back.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #29
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,768 ✭✭✭893bet


    cute geoge wrote: »
    you can drive posts in early spring with the loader no problem .I left off the cows on march 19th and was driving posts that week no problem with loader .My ground might not be the driest but for example the tyres were not tracking the ground at the time the post just slide into the ground with the pressure
    cj maxx wrote: »
    I thought I read a post that mentions driving with a loader.
    Unless ground is soft a loader will drive F- all.
    Even at that if you hit a stone .....
    Waste of time.
    If you're stuck for money and can't get posts and wire etc to drive with a track machine or post driver at the same time wait till October.
    Make holes with a crow bar and sink them as far as you can with a laden loader and use a post driver,not a sledge.
    Trust me from experience it's a half arsed job


    On most of this ground the loader would push a 6 foot post out of sight!

    Keeping them straight is the biggest challenge.

    Will drive the strainers and see if there is time left over for some of the posts.


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    #30
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,768 ✭✭✭893bet


    hopeso wrote: »
    I don’t know, as I never priced them. I won’t be buying anything from him. I’d assume they’d be a similar price to any of the others. Similar quality too, despite what you’ll be told on the phone .......

    Don’t forget that you can reclaim the VAT on all fencing material too.....


    blue5000 wrote: »
    Don't forget to keep all the receipts and claim the vat back.

    This topic is worth a thread on its own.

    If claiming the VAT back then you should be required to depreciate the cost of the fence I assume? I.e over 8 years? That don’t really suit my agenda as I prefer to show it in a single year this year.


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    #31
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,143 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    No, fencing is not a building. The VAT rebate is specifically for fixtures and fittings. For example if you get a stand by PTO driven generator you may or may not claim VAT back. You can if its bolted to the floor. You can't if the same generator has a three point linkage and is thus mobile.
    You charge the fencing materials as a cost on this year's accounts.


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