BE Services to Go-Ahead and Resulting Fleet Changes

belfast stephen wrote: »

I have heard the reason for GAI taking the routes over from BE is because the NAT didn't order the coaches in time

Funny that because I heard very different.

But there's f*ck all point in me saying that because the last time I tried to provide information on the forum (10% to 5%) I was very quickly put back by the pro-privitisation contingent on this forum.


Also FYI that's not the reason . Since GAI are getting the unreliable LDs from bus eireann and also a batch of SCs

There are 50odd Volvo coaches on order with 40odd going to Bus Eireann and only about 10-12 going elsewhere.

devnull wrote: »

Well the problem is that unfortunately there's been so much stuff posted on here that's been proven to be wildly inaccurate over the past 12-18 months or so that unfortunately it's only natural that people are going to be skeptical and ask people to back up what they are posting before they believe it.



Which years are these going to be, if indeed it is correct?

And all these inaccurate facts have been posted by me ?

No they haven't. I don't post if I'm not sure/untrue or just rumour


They are already in production and should be here around mid 2018 as in June/July.

Approx 5 months before GAI take anything from BÉ

punisher5112 wrote: »

Are the vdl coaches really that bad.

Well for both LCs and LDs and now including LFs (yes , 2018 vehicles and they're breaking down)

I'm delighted / over the f*cking moon they are going to Go-ahead , I've banged on about them here before

The biggest **** box I've ever had the misfortune of driving. The most unreliable bucket of sh"*t that has left me at the side of the road more times than I care to remember.

I've never broken down so much in my life until I drove those things.

The day they go out the gate and don't come back I'll be celebrating !

devnull wrote: »

Which years are these going to be, if indeed it is correct?

Please excuse, I answered this completely wrong

They are getting LDs from BÉ which are 2015-2016 registered (the most unreliable)

They are getting SCs that are 2012 registered.

punisher5112 wrote: »

Woops KS&l I mixed your user name around....

I sincerely apologize I do hope you forgive me......


It's great to get feedback off someone on the ground like myself but I find it falls on deaf ears as we are usually the last to know and if anything could be changed or needs sorting we would be the last anyone would ever go to ask.

I can't understand in this day and age they can't look into vehicle design and reliability before purchasing.

Simple look at other countries mainly UK and follow suit with likes of vanhool or setra etc etc....

They are a terrible brand and vehicle

But as someone else mentioned here, it was a tender they won and VDL seem to be good at that

But because they have been a terrible vehicle, the NTA have had enough of them and moved away from them, which is why there are Volvo's in production for us, so hopefully that will improve reliability !

See attached as proof !

devnull wrote: »

Calling that vehicle a coach is rather generous I'd say. The Volvo B8RLE is a bus chassis and the low line of the vehicle looks like a bus as well. It's more of a bus with a body to make it look like a coach more than anything else and it certainly won't have the same ride quality as a proper high line coach like the SC models that Bus Eireann also use on commuter routes.

No doubt the B8RLE chassis is better than that is being used on the VDL products but at the end of the day it's a bus in the clothing of a coach, which would be considerably cheaper to produce than a high line coach on a coach chassis which probably is how it won the tender. It's also a new product to the UK and Ireland market so it's unproven. They will have had to make some compromises to get a coach body on a coach chassis so it'll be interesting to see how they crossed that bridge.

VDL still do build the Jonckheere JHV2/SHV2 body on the Volvo B9R/B11R/B13R Chassis which is still a quality vehicle and used extensively on touring week in the UK and Ireland, but the ex Berkhof line, which is what the LC/LD/LE/LF class is, is nowhere near the same standard.

We already have Volvo SC7 in the fleet and they have been proven better than the VDL product by miles

These new things are coming with very similar engines and running gear as the current VE with a different chassis of course.

They are to be considered a coach for the reasons they will be able to do 100kmh , they won't be carrying standing passengers under any circumstances as that would be illegal, so hopefully our drivers realize this !

They also won't have the second rear door as shown in the publication to help increase capacity.

They are really being got to assist in carrying wheelchair users, but even they will still need to be belted down to the floor so will actually require driver intervention anyway.

Comfort wise they might not be too bad depending on the suspension etc

But we will have to see when they arrive but overall I'd be more positive about these than anything by VDL.

devnull wrote: »

If you believe that you will be in for a big disappointment - there are a fair few differences.

The Bus Eireann Sunsundegui SC7 is a high line coach built on the high line Volvo B11R coach chassis that features an 11 Litre Volvo engine with 430BHP and a Volvo iShift gearbox and these are pretty standard features of the SC7 which is a proper coach.

The B8RLE is a low line chassis that is primarily intended for low floor single decker buses like the Wright Eclipse and MCV vehicles operated by JJ Kavanagh. It features an 8 litre engine of up to 280bhp as standard with a 350bh biofuel option and ZF Ecolife 6 speed automatic gearbox. Even the article you posted describes some of the vehicle as 'semi-coach'.

If what you say is true, then I'd highly doubt they would be capable of anything near 100kmh ,

I imagine we'd be a getting a slightly different version. But we'll have to wait and see what they come out with next year.

Semi coach is for the front been low floor accessible for wheel chair then steps up to the seating area.

It's not so much about these new things being a luxury coach anyway.

Once they are more reliable than the current VDL muck then we might actually stand a chance of running a half decent service instead of having up 15/20 LDs / LFs off the road at any time

GM228 wrote: »

GAI are only getting 10 buses from BE, initially suggested to be LDs from my contact in the NTA, however he recently indicated this may change to 10 LFs transferring instead. No SCs are to transfer are all services by GAI are to be low floor wheelchair accessible hence either the LDs or LFs.

It's been a while since I saw the publication but the publication did say most definitely they would be getting 2012 SCs from us (this sticks because we like these buses and we were slightly giving out about giving them to Go-Ahead)

And they would be getting some LDs and LFs from us also

I most definitely saw this in an official document, just trying to recall where I saw this. I could've been online but I think for some reason it was in one of the documents issued by the company to staff, a bit like the one above.

Here we go wrote: »

Would anyone know what date Go ahead are taking over the 120 BE route ?

Was supposed to be early 2019 but we heard it's delayed until November at the earliest

GM228 wrote: »

I'm pretty certain that the NTA confirmed that the services would be entirely low floor vehicles at an Oireachtas Transport Committee meeting, I'm also pretty certain it was in the tender document also. I say pretty certain because I can't find the minutes online now and the tender seems to have vanished online.

All I can find from a quick search is that 10 buses will transfer as per the NTA.

In any case I guess we shall have to wait and see, as we have seen things change regularly.

I was surprised when the LFs got mentioned due to their unique procurement.

Having driven the routes myself, including the 123 via kilmeague and roberstown, I can tell you now for fact it's never an LD or LF on that route because they do not fit.

It has always been an SC or LC on that route because of the terrible roads and low trees etc. So if Go-Ahead aren't going to have any single decker to put on that then they are going to be in trouble with it

Even the 126 via the Japanese gardens is very difficult for an LD which is why most times it is an SC on it.


Unfortunately here now it's not just about being low floor accessible but weather or not the type of vehicle can actually cope with the route.


Even reading the document I posted earlier of the new Volvo's , they are going to be about 13.5 M in length but only twin axle, they'll be quite large around corners too, only 0.6 shorter than an LD !

I did find an article on the NTA website which back up your claim but also confirms the 52 new Volvo's that 12 will go to go-ahead for these routes. But giving the length they may be problematic !

It does say 10 vehicles will stay with route but doesn't say which ones. But this goes against what they said previously as on a different website or document as saw that it mentioned LD and SC fleet transferring over.

Like you say though we'll have to wait and see because they do seem to change their minds frequently

That's because there's no destination code for Kilmeague for the display !

That's an odd one , I've never seen an LD or SE on that route since I've been around. Even when I did do that route the odd time I've been specifically told by the supervisor not to take a large vehicle !

What I have seen on it though in my time is the AM bus !

GM228 wrote: »

Only earlier this year an SE appeared on the run also. Have seen the 2008 and 2015 LDs on it, but never an LF.

Very slow run for an AM, it pops up the odd time on runs it is not suitable for such as the 115 and 120. VMDs are also appearing on routes they are not suited for such as the 101 and 109.

It's down to a shortage of vehicles

At the moment there are bearly enough buses for the services since at any time there's a hape off the road

So like you say, VWDs going to kells, Cavan, Wicklow, Kildare , athboy !

The AM going on the 123, 126 and others

It's gotten a bit of a joke at the moment. Especially with approx 6 services off every morning because of this reason.

The drivers will be there ready to go to work no issue, but because no buses available their runs are cancelled and they just spend the morning standing in the garage waiting for a bus to appear.

Could be down to reasons like taking on the extra 115/c / 109/X etc and getting much extra fleet.

The LFs came in because older fleet are getting retired too don't forget and also the LD200s falling off the road

The 20/20x route expanded too aswell as the 30/30x expanding putting a lot more pressure on fleet

They really need fleet to be honest

GM228 wrote: »

It does make you wonder why the 17 LDs in storage long term have not had their corrosion issues addressed. They were sent to Inchicore for remedial work which to date has not happened, they have not even been assessed yet despite some arriving 2 years ago.

And why a perfectly good 2008 LD (one of the few "good" ones) is now allocated permanently to the driving school when a 2004 SP for example could have been allocated instead of being scrapped when it's time on PSO was up.

I believe they were sent with intent to repair but was pulled due to costs for some and not others. Appearently some have resurfaced. Some are now in cork and Limerick also !

The training school thing I couldn't explain only for they do have 2 SPs and the LD

But on these 2 issues I'm not fully sure on so I'm not able to explain much myself now but some others are active in this area of knowledge, possibly someone else who knows the answers to these issues

punisher5112 wrote: »

I would guess the Tri axles LD is there due to tail swing and rear steer to teach how to watch for this as they really need a lot of space.

The training school did without a tri-axle for the last 10 years, I just find it odd that they allocated a much needed high capacity vehicle exclusively to the school during a time of fleet restraint.

GM228 wrote: »

The training school did without a tri-axle for the last 10 years, I just find it odd that they allocated a much needed high capacity vehicle exclusively to the school during a time of fleet restraint.

I get that but there may well be reasons such as other issues with the bus, many collisions so training on the actual types they will be driving etc.

Just the two points here

The training LD is only something like 12.6 M long as opposed to the 2015 - 2018 LD - LF that are 14.1 meter long, so a bit wasteful if you ask me, again considering an SP is something like 12.1-12.3 meter long I think !


The tendering part is interesting since this time the NTA have gone to Volvo , we heard a rumour it was because they finally saw how unreliable the VDL brand is but we can't be too sure of that for fact but I do wonder if that did play a part in it

Also just to say, I think a 12.6 - 14.1 tri-axle coach will actually be much easier to manoeuvre than a 13.6M twin axel on corners etc. I can't wait to see the turning circle on these Volvo's now, it'll be terrible.

I thought they did get the Scania tender ?

Since the 2015 - 2016 fleet came in matching that description ? The newer SE fleet

Was it possible the tender was cancelled because they wanted to alter it and they just delt with Scania directly ?

But either way , in 2014 cancel an accepted deal from Scania and in 2015 and 2016 new Scania fleet arrive. I'd say it was all connected

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I thought they did get the Scania tender ?

Since the 2015 - 2016 fleet came in matching that description ? The newer SE fleet

Was it possible the tender was cancelled because they wanted to alter it and they just delt with Scania directly ?

But either way , in 2014 cancel an accepted deal from Scania and in 2015 and 2016 new Scania fleet arrive. I'd say it was all connected

Sorry, I was having a bit of a brain fart moment there, the Scania contract was indeed completed and it was the new SEs, it was a 2014 tender for up to 60 single deckers which was cancelled.

devnull wrote: »

We're not talking about the B8 chassis range, which includes the higher line B8R though, we're talking about the B8RLE which is designed to be a chassis for a low floor city bus. It's related to the B8R, but it's not the same and to try and suggest that they are one and the same couldn't be further from the truth.

The B8R does have a number of coaches built on it in the UK and Ireland including the Plaxton Leopard and the SC3 as well as the non low-entry version of the SB3. But the BE order is not built on this chassis, it is built on it's bus cousin, the B8RLE, unless Bus Eireann made a mistake in their internal docs.

Volvo B8R: https://www.volvobuses.co.uk/content/dam/volvo/volvo-buses/markets/uk/our-offering/coaches/volvo-B8R/documents/B8R%20brochure.pdf
Volvo B8RLE: https://www.volvobuses.co.uk/content/dam/volvo/volvo-buses/markets/uk/our-offering/buses/volvo-B8RLE/documents/B8RLE%20brochure.pdf



Well that would be my worry as well, especially when they only are going to have a 280bhp engine, which is the standard spec engine that is fitted to the B8RLE chassis.

I very highly doubt we'd be getting such a small engine to do such high speeds with a small 250-280 liter fuel tank

It's just the chassis with something different being built around it, engines and other parts can be changed etc

All we can do is wait and see what actually arrives