Guinness Pro14 Season 2018-2019

ClanofLams · 18-05-2019 11:36pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Leinster where not very good, sexton, Cullen etc all-came out and said it

Yeah in fairness the transformation was impressive in its speed. They won 1/6 that year in Europe including Wasps beating them by 30 in Dublin. There was a lot of hand wringing in media about how provinces would no longer be able to compete in Europe. Some turnaround to be champions two seasons on.

Shefwedfan · 18-05-2019 11:41pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

Yeah in fairness the transformation was impressive in its speed. They won 1/6 that year in Europe including Wasps beating them by 30 in Dublin. There was a lot of hand wringing in media about how provinces would no longer be able to compete in Europe. Some turnaround to be champions two seasons on.

I will use WC as excuse for the Wasps game, players came back and straight into game. Wasps players had leinstrr lined up after England early exit

Some Leinster players didn’t know calls. Sexton returning from France, it was a disaster and never recovered

The Bath match at home was the sign of things to come, remember the atmosphere that night after the win, first time in a while some real excitement

The MOC years had drained it......

Got to final, decent season to kick off Leo and that was it

jacothelad · 19-05-2019 9:28am

troyzer wrote: »

You're right. The Pro14 has a weird habit of bringing out the best in weaker teams on paper.

Would someone tell Ulster.....:D:D:D:D

freak scence · 24-05-2019 6:39pm

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7RrdGDXoAAPo4I.jpg

salmocab · 24-05-2019 6:47pm

freak scence wrote: »

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7RrdGDXoAAPo4I.jpg

A fairly suspicious spread of players there

joseywhales · 24-05-2019 7:01pm

I feel like Leinster or Glasgow would hammer that team

Buer · 24-05-2019 7:07pm

salmocab wrote:

A fairly suspicious spread of players there

Players have to have featured in a minimum number of games. When you take that into account, it's not that suspicious. Plus guys like Lee Lo, Mata and Fa'ainga have had brilliant seasons. They're completely worthy recipients.

I'm not sure there's much of a dispute against any of those selected.

Shefwedfan · 24-05-2019 7:21pm

joseywhales wrote: »

I feel like Leinster or Glasgow would hammer that team

1 Leinster and 1 Glasgow player

Exclamation Marc · 24-05-2019 11:48pm

Between this 'dream team' and the frankly stupid 'Player of the Tournament' for the Champions Cup, why is it so difficult to get these sorts of things right in rugby?

troyzer · 24-05-2019 11:50pm

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Between this 'dream team' and the frankly stupid 'Player of the Tournament' for the Champions Cup, why is it so difficult to get these sorts of things right in rugby?

Cipriani as Premiership player of the year ironically is one of the few that makes sense.

He still has no chance at the England squad

Exclamation Marc · 24-05-2019 11:54pm

troyzer wrote: »

Cipriani as Premiership player of the year ironically is one of the few that makes sense.

He still has no chance at the England squad

So true and the irony of that makes it even more bizarre!

troyzer · 24-05-2019 11:55pm

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Cipriani as Premiership player of the year ironically is one of the few that makes sense.

He still has no chance at the England squad

So true and the irony of that makes it even more bizarre!

Eddie's England selections frequently make no sense so at least there's a consistency there.

Buer · 25-05-2019 5:31am

Exclamation Marc wrote:

Between this 'dream team' and the frankly stupid 'Player of the Tournament' for the Champions Cup, why is it so difficult to get these sorts of things right in rugby?

They did. That is very much the right selection. I haven't seen anyone actually make a valid argument as to why the team is incorrect aside from complaining that Leinster or Glasgow would beat it. On the basis of the season, the vast majority deserve to be in the side.

baas baa · 25-05-2019 9:18am

I remember about 10 years ago they did a dream team for the Pro 12, probably the first year they did it and they just went by the profile of the player and nothing else, it was laughable. Most of the players had only a handful of appearances.

Exclamation Marc · 25-05-2019 9:47am

Buer wrote: »

They did. That is very much the right selection. I haven't seen anyone actually make a valid argument as to why the team is incorrect aside from complaining that Leinster or Glasgow would beat it. On the basis of the season, the vast majority deserve to be in the side.

Ken Owens for a example is in the team. Fraser Brown has much better stats around the park for this season. Owens played 13, Brown played 10.

James Lowe has generally better stats (and a few seriously better stats such as tackles, offloads and passes) proportionally to Maxwane at 11 but played half the games.

So the criteria are slightly unclear. I agree that it shouldn't include say a Sexton because he barely plays in the Pro14 but it certainly should be a bit clearer when players fall into contention.

Buer · 25-05-2019 9:59am

Maxwane plays for one of the weaker teams yet scored 14 tries. There can be no complaints about his presence. He had to be in the team.

Hooker is a pretty marginal call due to a lack of a real stand out. Stuart McInally probably had a decent claim before Edinburgh fell apart late on. But again, I can't imagine there are too many looking at the team and thinking Ken Owens is jumping out as a clearly incorrect call.

Exclamation Marc · 25-05-2019 10:14am

Buer wrote: »

Maxwane plays for one of the weaker teams yet scored 14 tries. There can be no complaints about his presence. He had to be in the team.

Hooker is a pretty marginal call due to a lack of a real stand out. Stuart McInally probably had a decent claim before Edinburgh fell apart late on. But again, I can't imagine there are too many looking at the team and thinking Ken Owens is jumping out as a clearly incorrect call.

I agree about Maxwane, you couldn't really omit the top try scorer.

It just seems as if the qualifying criteria are pretty unclear which doesn't help.and maybe that's the fault of rugby being a tricky game to really focus on individuals in some instances

errlloyd · 25-05-2019 10:19am

I'm sort of stuck on this one. On the one hand I think this team does reward players who deserve it. On the other hand, I don't think it sells the league very well when casual rugby fans read it and know basically no one, or fans of other leagues read it etc. I know it's a reflection of reality, but the league should just put its 15 best players down or nothing

awec · 25-05-2019 11:32am

errlloyd wrote: »

I'm sort of stuck on this one. On the one hand I think this team does reward players who deserve it. On the other hand, I don't think it sells the league very well when casual rugby fans read it and know basically no one, or fans of other leagues read it etc. I know it's a reflection of reality, but the league should just put its 15 best players down or nothing

But it reflects reality. The better players barely play in the league.

errlloyd · 25-05-2019 11:39am

I know. I said in the sentence after the one you highlighted that it was a reflection of reality.

25-05-2019 11:48am

You'd have to have a rule that requires a minimum number of appearances in regular season to allow you play in the finals series. Or something to that effect. Never going to happen though

awec · 25-05-2019 11:53am

errlloyd wrote: »

I know. I said in the sentence after the one you highlighted that it was a reflection of reality.

Ha, so you did.

Burkie1203 · 25-05-2019 12:58pm

Ayaan Rough Against wrote: »

You'd have to have a rule that requires a minimum number of appearances in regular season to allow you play in the finals series. Or something to that effect. Never going to happen though

Injuries and 5 fixtures in International windows means that's not viable

Former Former · 25-05-2019 1:02pm

I don't think anyone really cares tbh. If it's a nice way for some of the players in the weaker teams to get some recognition, then why not?

troyzer · 25-05-2019 1:25pm

Former Former wrote: »

I don't think anyone really cares tbh. If it's a nice way for some of the players in the weaker teams to get some recognition, then why not?

Because Munster fans use it as a reason to ignore criticism of POM.

That reason and that alone.

Eod100 · 25-05-2019 1:45pm

troyzer wrote: »

Because Munster fans use it as a reason to ignore criticism of POM.

That reason and that alone.

No player is immune to criticism. Just comes down to whether it's deserved or proportional I guess

troyzer · 25-05-2019 1:46pm

Eod100 wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Because Munster fans use it as a reason to ignore criticism of POM.

That reason and that alone.

No player is immune to criticism. Just comes down to whether it's deserved or proportional I guess

Well some people are claiming he shouldn't be on the plane. That's clearly undeserved.

At the same time, he's done approximately the square root of **** all since the All Blacks.

He's not the only one but he's got no work rate to keep him in the team when his big moments stop happening.

sydthebeat · 25-05-2019 2:05pm

troyzer wrote: »

He's not the only one but he's got no work rate to keep him in the team when his big moments stop happening.

I can be critical as the next guy re POM, but I think the issue here isnt his work rate... But more the lack of variation in the with he does.

He will hit rucks and present quick ball all day long, and he's particularly excellent at that. However at times when the munster front line defense is under the kosh (see saracens) he tends to stand off too much for my liking, looking to make the big play. For a 6 he's a big powerful guy, yet his carrying stats are notoriously poor.... Especially considering that the munster tight five aren't overly blessed with heavy carriers.... So much lands on stander and killers shoulders.

So I wouldn't be questioning his work rate... As his ruck stats are always top class... I just think he needs to develop his all round game better, which he absolutely can.

troyzer · 25-05-2019 2:07pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

He's not the only one but he's got no work rate to keep him in the team when his big moments stop happening.

I can be critical as the next guy re POM, but I think the issue here isnt his work rate... But more the lack of variation in the with he does.

He will hit rucks and present quick ball all day long, and he's particularly excellent at that. However at times when the munster front line defense is under the kosh (see saracens) he tends to stand off too much for my liking, looking to make the big play. For a 6 he's a big powerful guy, yet his carrying stats are notoriously poor.... Especially considering that the munster tight five aren't overly blessed with heavy carriers.... So much lands on stander and killers shoulders.

So I wouldn't be questioning his work rate... As his ruck stats are always top class... I just think he needs to develop his all round game better, which he absolutely can.

Present quick ball? He never has more than a handful of carries a game, most of them negative. He can hit rucks, sure. But you need more from your forwards.

Prowling around looking for the jackal is precisely why he doesn't have huge tackle stats. That is a low work rate when it's not paying off with turnovers.

Bazzo · 25-05-2019 7:06pm

errlloyd wrote: »

I'm sort of stuck on this one. On the one hand I think this team does reward players who deserve it. On the other hand, I don't think it sells the league very well when casual rugby fans read it and know basically no one, or fans of other leagues read it etc. I know it's a reflection of reality, but the league should just put its 15 best players down or nothing

How do you decide the "best" players?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the dream team as is. It's a nice overview of players who've done well in the league over the season. It doesn't have to be some sort of billboard to advertise the league, why would it?

degsie · 25-05-2019 9:20pm

Leinster

AbusesToilets · 25-05-2019 9:28pm

troyzer wrote: »

Present quick ball? He never has more than a handful of carries a game, most of them negative. He can hit rucks, sure. But you need more from your forwards.

Prowling around looking for the jackal is precisely why he doesn't have huge tackle stats. That is a low work rate when it's not paying off with turnovers.

Compare him to Pooper. They play a similar role, being arch jacklers, but also manage to have an impact in all other areas of the game.

troyzer · 25-05-2019 11:56pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Present quick ball? He never has more than a handful of carries a game, most of them negative. He can hit rucks, sure. But you need more from your forwards.

Prowling around looking for the jackal is precisely why he doesn't have huge tackle stats. That is a low work rate when it's not paying off with turnovers.

Compare him to Pooper. They play a similar role, being arch jacklers, but also manage to have an impact in all other areas of the game.

Ah come on now. You can't compare him to Pooper. Pocock is probably the best forward in world rugby when he's healthy, he's unplayable. Hooper is nothing like POM, he's a proper threat with the ball. He had 9 carries for 38 metres against the Jaguares yesterday.

In 2018 he had around 200 carries for 700 metres. POM had 170 for 180 metres.

It's a borderline insult to compare them on graft.

AbusesToilets · 25-05-2019 11:59pm

troyzer wrote: »

Ah come on now. You can't compare him to Pooper. Pocock is probably the best forward in world rugby when he's healthy, he's unplayable. Hooper is nothing like POM, he's a proper threat with the ball. He had 9 carries for 38 metres against the Jaguares yesterday.

In 2018 he had around 200 carries for 700 metres. POM had 170 for 180 metres.

It's a borderline insult to compare them on graft.

Well, that's kind of my point. He is lauded for his breakdown work, but even that I would say isn't all it's cracked up to be. Pooper, Warburton, even SOB back in the day, were complete players.

troyzer · 26-05-2019 12:01am

AbusesToilets wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Ah come on now. You can't compare him to Pooper. Pocock is probably the best forward in world rugby when he's healthy, he's unplayable. Hooper is nothing like POM, he's a proper threat with the ball. He had 9 carries for 38 metres against the Jaguares yesterday.

In 2018 he had around 200 carries for 700 metres. POM had 170 for 180 metres.

It's a borderline insult to compare them on graft.

Well, that's kind of my point. He is lauded for his breakdown work, but even that I would say isn't all it's cracked up to be. Pooper, Warburton, even SOB back in the day, were complete players.

Oh sorry, I thought you were trying to make a favourable comparison.

POM is genuinely capable of epic performances, nobody disputes that. But a Stander, VdF and Conan backrow just clearly sounds like the best one. Conan has improved massively, it would be so unfair to leave him out of the team.

Burkie1203 · 26-05-2019 7:26am

troyzer wrote: »

Oh sorry, I thought you were trying to make a favourable comparison.

POM is genuinely capable of epic performances, nobody disputes that. But a Stander, VdF and Conan backrow just clearly sounds like the best one. Conan has improved massively, it would be so unfair to leave him out of the team.

At the moment, on form, the Leinster backrow yesterday is the form backrow

Burkie1203 · 28-05-2019 9:42am

I think this is next season's conferences

A
Munster
Connacht
Cardiff Blues
Scarlets
Glasgow
Zebre
CHEETAHS

B
Leinster
Ulster
Ospreys
Dragons
Edinburgh
Benetton
Kings

Cookiemunster · 28-05-2019 10:05am

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I think this is next season's conferences

A
Munster
Connacht
Cardiff Blues
Scarlets
Glasgow
Zebre
CHEETAHS

B
Leinster
Ulster
Ospreys
Dragons
Edinburgh
Benetton
Kings

I'm pretty sure it's done on league points, not play off results, so as Munster finished with 1 point more than Leinster they are Ireland 1 and swop conferences with Leinster.

troyzer · 28-05-2019 10:34am

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I think this is next season's conferences

A
Munster
Connacht
Cardiff Blues
Scarlets
Glasgow
Zebre
CHEETAHS

B
Leinster
Ulster
Ospreys
Dragons
Edinburgh
Benetton
Kings

No you don't. You pinched that from DJ Rossouw, including his capitalised Cheetahs (because he's a Cheetahs fan).

He himself took it from Wales online but he at least references them.

Burkie1203 · 28-05-2019 11:42am

troyzer wrote: »

No you don't. You pinched that from DJ Rossouw, including his capitalised Cheetahs (because he's a Cheetahs fan).

He himself took it from Wales online but he at least references them.

The list he had that i copied was wrong. He has since changed it

My understanding is Ospreys and Scarlets swap and that's it.

Jump_In_Jack · 28-05-2019 12:15pm

I would think it has to be done including playoffs also, not just league finishing places.
i.e. 1=Leinster (Ire1), 2=Glasgow(Sco1), 3=Munster(Ire2), 4=Ulster(Ire3), 5=Connacht(Ire4), 6=Benetton(Ita1), 7=Ospreys(Wal1), 8=Cardiff(Wal2), 9=Scarlets(Wal3), 10=Edinburgh(Sco2), 11=Cheetahs(SA1), 12=Dragons(Wal4), 13=Kings(SA2), 14=Zebre(Ita2).

Conference A:
Ire 1 + 4 = Leinster + Connacht
Wal 2 + 3 = Cardiff + Scarlets
Sco 1 = Glasgow
Ita 2 = Zebre
SA 2 = Kings

Conference B:
Ire 2 + 3 = Munster + Ulster
Wal 1 + 4 = Ospreys + Dragons
Sco 2 = Edinburgh
Ita 1 = Benetton
SA 1 = Cheetahs

The swaps would be Munster and Leinster, Ospreys and Scarlets, and Cheetahs and Kings.

b.gud · 28-05-2019 12:38pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I would think it has to be done including playoffs also, not just league finishing places.
i.e. 1=Leinster (Ire1), 2=Glasgow(Sco1), 3=Munster(Ire2), 4=Ulster(Ire3), 5=Connacht(Ire4), 6=Benetton(Ita1), 7=Ospreys(Wal1), 8=Cardiff(Wal2), 9=Scarlets(Wal3), 10=Edinburgh(Sco2), 11=Cheetahs(SA1), 12=Dragons(Wal4), 13=Kings(SA2), 14=Zebre(Ita2).

Conference A:
Ire 1 + 4 = Leinster + Connacht
Wal 2 + 3 = Cardiff + Scarlets
Sco 1 = Glasgow
Ita 2 = Zebre
SA 2 = Kings

Conference B:
Ire 2 + 3 = Munster + Ulster
Wal 1 + 4 = Ospreys + Dragons
Sco 2 = Edinburgh
Ita 1 = Benetton
SA 1 = Cheetahs

The swaps would be Munster and Leinster, Ospreys and Scarlets, and Cheetahs and Kings.

Like you I would have assume that it would be done on final positions rather than league standing but on the Under sticks podcast, the official Pro14 podcast, the media guy for the Pro14 talked about it. He said that they merged the conferences into one table and used that for the seedings. He didn't specifically state that it was based on end of regular season standings but that was the way it sounded.

errlloyd · 28-05-2019 4:57pm

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-stage-pro14-final-first-16342055.amp

Pro14 final in Cardiff next year. The stadium is 10k smaller than the average attendance from the last two years. But I guess they're assuming both sets of fans will be travelling!

aloooof · 28-05-2019 4:59pm

errlloyd wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-stage-pro14-final-first-16342055.amp

Pro14 final in Cardiff next year. The stadium is 10k smaller than the average attendance from the last two years. But I guess they're assuming both sets of fans will be travelling!

It'll never happen (for quite awhile at least) but I'd love to see it being hosted in Italy at some stage.

Eod100 · 28-05-2019 5:09pm

Simon Thomas seemed to be hinting at that for a while so must have the inside scoop. Capacity only 33k

Podge_irl · 28-05-2019 6:14pm

Eod100 wrote: »

Simon Thomas seemed to be hinting at that for a while so must have the inside scoop. Capacity only 33k

I have vague recollections of him defending it as being big enough despite it being under the attendance for the last 2 years. It’s in a crap part of Cardiff too though at least with the limited capacity the chronic shortage of beds in Cardiff won’t be such an issue.

Burkie1203 · 28-05-2019 9:49pm

b.gud wrote: »

Like you I would have assume that it would be done on final positions rather than league standing but on the Under sticks podcast, the official Pro14 podcast, the media guy for the Pro14 talked about it. He said that they merged the conferences into one table and used that for the seedings. He didn't specifically state that it was based on end of regular season standings but that was the way it sounded.

Simon Thomas had an article about 6 weeks ago and at the time Leinster would have been in A but the last few weeks results changed everything. He says it's all based on the regular season fixtures and at the time there would have been 3 sides from each Conference swapping

Conference A:
Ire 1 + 4 = Munster + Connacht
Wal 2 + 3 = Blues + Scarlets
Sco 1 = Glasgow
Ita 2 = Zebre
SA 1 = Cheetahs

Conference B:
Ire 2 + 3 = Leinster + Ulster
Wal 1 + 4 = Ospreys + Dragons
Sco 2 = Edinburgh
Ita 1 = Benetton
SA 2 = Kings

bennyl10 · 29-05-2019 1:48pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Simon Thomas had an article about 6 weeks ago and at the time Leinster would have been in A but the last few weeks results changed everything. He says it's all based on the regular season fixtures and at the time there would have been 3 sides from each Conference swapping

Conference A:
Ire 1 + 4 = Munster + Connacht
Wal 2 + 3 = Blues + Scarlets
Sco 1 = Glasgow
Ita 2 = Zebre
SA 1 = Cheetahs

Conference B:
Ire 2 + 3 = Leinster + Ulster
Wal 1 + 4 = Ospreys + Dragons
Sco 2 = Edinburgh
Ita 1 = Benetton
SA 2 = Kings

Yes it’s seemingly based on regular season, so Munster would be irish one

No real change..

Eod100 · 29-05-2019 3:23pm

Speaking of.. https://twitter.com/simonrug/status/1133696188954423296?s=19

Riskymove · 29-05-2019 3:44pm

we shouldn't forget that they chose not to change conferences this season in order to "develop intra conference rivalries" or something

Munster should have swapped conferences if I recall

Guinness Pro14 Season 2018-2019

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