Motor tax summons

francie81 · 24-05-2019 11:32am #1

Just wondering do judges usually hand out penalty points on top of a fine for no road tax as I got a summons? This happens to be my first court appearance whenever that will be?

Thanks

uck51js9zml2yt · 24-05-2019 11:34am

Go to court with your tax and arrears paid and speak to the Guard.

francie81 · 24-05-2019 11:37am

Jeremy Big Ring wrote: »

Go to court with your tax and arrears paid and speak to the Guard.

That will be since 2017 as I had it declared off the road and was a backup car to my wife’s in the event that car give trouble and trouble it did as of April this year?

Scoundrel · 24-05-2019 11:38am

francie81 wrote: »

That will be since 2017 as I had it declared off the road and was a backup car to my wife’s in the event that car give trouble and trouble it did as of April this year?

The fine will be less than that will cost just go plead guilty and pay the fine.

francie81 · 24-05-2019 11:43am

Scoundrel wrote: »

The fine will be less than that will cost just go plead guilty and pay the fine.

So you reckon pay arrears as per current disc?

francie81 · 24-05-2019 11:45am

OSI wrote: »

No penalty points for tax.

That’s what I thought even if convicted at court until someone mentioned elsewhere that’s why am wondering?

Isambard · 24-05-2019 11:46am

you'll have to pay the tax right back to the last disc. It's looked more seriously than if it were just not taxed.

Duffryman · 24-05-2019 11:52am

No penalty points for not having motor tax. Full list of the offences that do attract penalty points is here:

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Offences%2017%20April%202016.pdf

Did the offence occur while the car was supposed to be off the road, as per the declaration you made?

francie81 · 24-05-2019 11:54am

Isambard wrote: »

you'll have to pay the tax right back to the last disc. It's looked more seriously than if it were just not taxed.

Right so no point taxing it from now ignoring arrears? Also this is a double whammy as I already have a €60 fixed charge offence by traffic warden pending before the cops got me now.

francie81 · 24-05-2019 11:55am

Did the offence occur while the car was supposed to be off the road, as per the declaration you made?[/quote]

Yes I had it declared off the road do probably will for that matter suppose depending on the judge on the day?

Duffryman · 24-05-2019 11:58am

I don't think you'd be allowed to just tax it from now anyway, with the motor tax office turning a blind eye to the length of time it was untaxed for. So you'll probably need to pay arrears anyway. And having this done before you actually go to court would likely result in a lower fine, since it could be taken as a sign that you're treating the matter seriously and are making amends before being ordered to do so.

If you've a particularly accommodating Garda and a judge in a particularly good humour that day, the case might even be struck out or have probation applied if Garda is happy it was a once-off and judge decides that just having to come to court has been enough of a lesson for you.

Duffryman · 24-05-2019 12:00pm

We're posting across each other now

My understanding is that if you were caught driving an untaxed car during a period that the car was supposed to be off the road, that declaration for 'off the road' becomes null and void, and you become liable for tax right back to the time that the supposed 'off the road' period started.

I know this is not good news for you, and I'm open to correction.

francie81 · 24-05-2019 12:23pm

Duffryman wrote: »

I don't think you'd be allowed to just tax it from now anyway, with the motor tax office turning a blind eye to the length of time it was untaxed for. So you'll probably need to pay arrears anyway. And having this done before you actually go to court would likely result in a lower fine, since it could be taken as a sign that you're treating the matter seriously and are making amends before being ordered to do so.

If you've a particularly accommodating Garda and a judge in a particularly good humour that day, the case might even be struck out or have probation applied if Garda is happy it was a once-off and judge decides that just having to come to court has been enough of a lesson for you.

Appreciate that good input and as much as I would want to pay right now to show a good impression but trying to source such money is the obvious issue and my current financial situation is not great, would it be advisable to speak to my local cops of any solution prior the court appearance?

3DataModem · 24-05-2019 12:26pm

Duffryman wrote: »

We're posting across each other now

My understanding is that if you were caught driving an untaxed car during a period that the car was supposed to be off the road, that declaration for 'off the road' becomes null and void, and you become liable for tax right back to the time that the supposed 'off the road' period started.

I know this is not good news for you, and I'm open to correction.

I believe this is correct. Any "off the road" declaration is by default nullified by usage by the person who made the declaration.

Duffryman · 24-05-2019 12:49pm

francie81 wrote: »

....would it be advisable to speak to my local cops of any solution prior the court appearance?

No harm in speaking to the Gardaí, I suppose, but the bottom line is that if you're in a situation where you were caught driving an untaxed car that was supposed to be off the road, and you're not able to pay the arrears to regularise the situation, there's probably not much they can do for you by way of any 'solution', no matter how much sympathy they might have for your own particular circumstances. They're still duty bound to bring the prosecution.

francie81 · 24-05-2019 12:54pm

Duffryman wrote: »

No harm in speaking to the Gardaí, I suppose, but the bottom line is that if you're in a situation where you were caught driving an untaxed car that was supposed to be off the road, and you're not able to pay the arrears to regularise the situation, there's probably not much they can do for you by way of any 'solution', no matter how much sympathy they might have for your own particular circumstances. They're still duty bound to bring the prosecution.

Right, probably the only thing I can think of is gathering as much money as I can (when I can’t pay it now) by the time am to appear in court and maybe explain to the judge on the day hence an effort is shown giving my financial situation?

Duffryman · 24-05-2019 1:22pm

We're straying into the sort of 'legal advice' territory now that's not allowed in even the actual Legal Discussion forum.

So I'm sorry, and I'm not being awkward, but I really can't help any more. I've really said all I can - that there are no penalty points for not having motor tax, that you're liable for full arrears on the vehicle, and that paying these arrears in advance of a court appearance would be a benefit to you.

After that, anything as regards what might or might not happen, depending on what you say or don't say to Gardaí or the Judge, would be pure speculation. And you won't be able to tell the judge that 'some guy on Boards said something different'.

Hope you get through it without too much hardship anyway. In fairness, it's far from the worst offence out there.

francie81 · 24-05-2019 1:49pm

Duffryman wrote: »

We're straying into the sort of 'legal advice' territory now that's not allowed in even the actual Legal Discussion forum.

So I'm sorry, and I'm not being awkward, but I really can't help any more. I've really said all I can - that there are no penalty points for not having motor tax, that you're liable for full arrears on the vehicle, and that paying these arrears in advance of a court appearance would be a benefit to you.

After that, anything as regards what might or might not happen, depending on what you say or don't say to Gardaí or the Judge, would be pure speculation. And you won't be able to tell the judge that 'some guy on Boards said something different'.

Hope you get through it without too much hardship anyway. In fairness, it's far from the worst offence out there.

Yep your saying it as it is and I mainly came looking here about the penalty points to which you did answer so am satisfied with that.
I know I guess am putting too much thought into something that indeed is the lesser of offences out there perhaps it might have something to do with being in a position I was never in before haha.
Anyway much thanks again.

uck51js9zml2yt · 24-05-2019 1:53pm

Duffryman wrote: »

We're posting across each other now

My understanding is that if you were caught driving an untaxed car during a period that the car was supposed to be off the road, that declaration for 'off the road' becomes null and void, and you become liable for tax right back to the time that the supposed 'off the road' period started.

I know this is not good news for you, and I'm open to correction.

You are correct.

Op were you insured to drive the off the road vehicle?

francie81 · 24-05-2019 2:18pm

Jeremy Big Ring wrote: »

You are correct.

Op were you insured to drive the off the road vehicle?

Of course.

mickdw · 24-05-2019 2:46pm

If you had taxed it before being caught, your off road declaration would have allowed you to tax it from just the month you returned to the road.
It was rather stupid to risk what you did for the sake of 3 months tax. Even if you didn't tax it again after the 3 months and were caught, it would have been less serious as little back tax due.

francie81 · 24-05-2019 3:10pm

mickdw wrote: »

If you had taxed it before being caught, your off road declaration would have allowed you to tax it from just the month you returned to the road.
It was rather stupid to risk what you did for the sake of 3 months tax. Even if you didn't tax it again after the 3 months and were caught, it would have been less serious as little back tax due.

Yep no one to blame only myself will just have to try and make it up by the time my date comes around and that puts pay to getting the primary car repaired such is life eh.

Isambard · 24-05-2019 4:11pm

you've a spare car, urely you not that strapped for cash. Couldn't you sell one of them?

francie81 · 24-05-2019 4:22pm

Isambard wrote: »

you've a spare car, urely you not that strapped for cash. Couldn't you sell one of them?

Am very much strapped for cash unfortunately as am out of work on sick leave and selling this car is not really an option when you have family and being in a location we’re other means of transport is awkward, their is a lot of people am sure out there who drive but don’t really need to and I don’t feel am one of those, it’s always good having a second car their in the event the primary one packs in which in my case did.

millington · 24-05-2019 4:43pm

There is no penalty points & the fine for no tax is usually minor. However, if the car was declared off the road that is different territory and could have a big fine attached to it.

If the summons is just for no tax, why didn't you pay the FCPN which has to be sent first?

tcawley29 · 24-05-2019 4:43pm

Just sign it over to a friend and back and that will wipe the arrears and you can tax it fresh.

Not sure if the garda would check this though

Alanstrainor · 24-05-2019 4:51pm

OP, I'd be very careful taking legal advice on here. As well meaning as posters are it's very hard to be certain as to the claims made without seeking the advice of a solicitor...

francie81 · 24-05-2019 4:58pm

millington wrote: »

There is no penalty points & the fine for no tax is usually minor. However, if the car was declared off the road that is different territory and could have a big fine attached to it.

If the summons is just for no tax, why didn't you pay the FCPN which has to be sent first?

I got the summons when I got stopped.

francie81 · 24-05-2019 4:59pm

tcawley29 wrote: »

Just sign it over to a friend and back and that will wipe the arrears and you can tax it fresh.

Not sure if the garda would check this though

That could be too risky considering he could have checked it and have all this noted?

tcawley29 · 24-05-2019 5:01pm

francie81 wrote: »

That could be too risky considering he could have checked it and have all this noted?

Personally I have no previous experience here so I cannot confirm how risky it would be. Maybe another poster can confirm.

uck51js9zml2yt · 24-05-2019 7:11pm

francie81 wrote: »

That could be too risky considering he could have checked it and have all this noted?

From my time working in the MTO it was advised to just pay the arrears.

Where we knew a summons was involved we didnt do transfers.
You have no way of proving this was a once off event.

Isambard · 24-05-2019 7:45pm

tcawley29 wrote: »

Just sign it over to a friend and back and that will wipe the arrears and you can tax it fresh.

Not sure if the garda would check this though

gone too far for that I think

Spook_ie · 24-05-2019 11:01pm

Afaik you can remove a vehicle from SORN by insuring and taxing the vehicle, so was the insurance specific to that vehicle, in which case the back tax is likely only to the month you insured it from.

If the insurance was a generic insurance covering you as driving any vehicle then likely to be due the full tax as no proof of you intending to put it off SORN

francie81 · 24-05-2019 11:02pm

Another thing when and how do you usually receive a summons if I do get it (ie by post or in person by the cops) it’s just that I will be actually away from Wednesday next for couple weeks?

Thanks

Spook_ie · 24-05-2019 11:11pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Afaik you can remove a vehicle from SORN by insuring and taxing the vehicle, so was the insurance specific to that vehicle, in which case the back tax is likely only to the month you insured it from.

If the insurance was a generic insurance covering you as driving any vehicle then likely to be due the full tax as no proof of you intending to put it off SORN

Ignoring the last post which seems to be primarily for the UK, did find this which might be more worrying

“20C. A person who furnishes a non-use declaration to a licensing authority that contains information which is to his or her knowledge false or in a material respect misleading shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a class B fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or both.”.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/act/16/section/8/enacted/en/html

colm_mcm · 24-05-2019 11:44pm

A person who furnishes a non-use declaration to a licensing authority that contains information which is to his or her knowledge false or in a material respect misleading shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a class B fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or both.”

You declare a car off the road in advance these days, so you wouldn’t be making a false statement,
I’d imagine this dates back to when people used to get the form stamped to avoid arrears. 3 months on, 3 months off.

uck51js9zml2yt · 24-05-2019 11:54pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Afaik you can remove a vehicle from SORN by insuring and taxing the vehicle, so was the insurance specific to that vehicle, in which case the back tax is likely only to the month you insured it from.

If the insurance was a generic insurance covering you as driving any vehicle then likely to be due the full tax as no proof of you intending to put it off SORN

That's so far off the mark I wouldn't even know where to start;)

Spook_ie · 25-05-2019 1:39pm

Jeremy Big Ring wrote: »

That's so far off the mark I wouldn't even know where to start;)

I did point out in the next post that I'd been reading the UK SORN web pages and said to ignore it

Spook_ie · 25-05-2019 1:41pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

You declare a car off the road in advance these days, so you wouldn’t be making a false statement,
I’d imagine this dates back to when people used to get the form stamped to avoid arrears. 3 months on, 3 months off.

Yeah but if you then drive it anyways haven't you made a false statement?

francie81 · 26-05-2019 11:09am

Alluding to my OP, when I asked the cop how much will the fine be and replied with ‘that will be up to the judge’ so does this definitely mean I will get a court appearance/summons opposed to a fixed charge offence?

Henry Ford III · 26-05-2019 12:04pm

francie81 wrote:

Alluding to my OP, when I asked the cop how much will the fine be and replied with â€˜that will be up to the judgeâ€™ so does this definitely mean I will get a court appearance/summons opposed to a fixed charge offence?

Yes.

francie81 · 26-05-2019 11:07pm

Think I will just go with what another poster suggested and change ownership that way I would avoid paying all that arrears and take a fine in court.

francie81 · 27-05-2019 12:51pm

francie81 wrote: »

Think I will just go with what another poster suggested and change ownership that way I would avoid paying all that arrears and take a fine in court.

Surely this would be a solution anyone?

Isambard · 27-05-2019 1:26pm

francie81 wrote: »

Think I will just go with what another poster suggested and change ownership that way I would avoid paying all that arrears and take a fine in court.

i don't think that will get rid of the arrears in a case where a summons has been issued, in fact it might cause an investigation into why the change of ownership took place, which could be seen as sharp practice. The arrears are due imo as soon as a car is driven on a SORD

francie81 · 27-05-2019 1:37pm

Isambard wrote: »

i don't think that will get rid of the arrears in a case where a summons has been issued, in fact it might cause an investigation into why the change of ownership took place, which could be seen as sharp practice. The arrears are due imo as soon as a car is driven on a SORD

But changing ownership is not illegal thus cannot be investigated even on the grounds of a summons?

tcawley29 · 27-05-2019 2:46pm

francie81 wrote: »

But changing ownership is not illegal thus cannot be investigated even on the grounds of a summons?

Didn't realize you were driving a car that was declared off the road when you were caught, I just thought you were untaxed.

In this case I wouldn't try it. If the judge spots what you're attempting to do they'll more than likely throw the book at you for being smart.

francie81 · 27-05-2019 3:00pm

tcawley29 wrote: »

Didn't realize you were driving a car that was declared off the road when you were caught, I just thought you were untaxed.

In this case I wouldn't try it. If the judge spots what you're attempting to do they'll more than likely throw the book at you for being smart.

So probably just leaving it as it is till I get the summons and seek some legal advice at the same time?

Isambard · 27-05-2019 3:50pm

francie81 wrote: »

So probably just leaving it as it is till I get the summons and seek some legal advice at the same time?

your first post said you had got a summons.

tcawley29 · 27-05-2019 4:06pm

francie81 wrote: »

So probably just leaving it as it is till I get the summons and seek some legal advice at the same time?

Pay it off asap and speak to the garda about your situation after and show you've paid it. Might make court a bit easier.

If your other car you used to use still has tax/nct up to date maybe show proof of this too. Might help might not but all it will cost you is a bit of your time.

francie81 · 27-05-2019 6:20pm

tcawley29 wrote: »

Pay it off asap and speak to the garda about your situation after and show you've paid it. Might make court a bit easier.

If your other car you used to use still has tax/nct up to date maybe show proof of this too. Might help might not but all it will cost you is a bit of your time.

So as you pointed out in one of your posts that I could always use the loophole that is changing ownership in clearing arrears but you were not aware that I had it declared off the road therefore it can’t be done or more in the way of riskiness in doing so rather?

Rubberchikken · 27-05-2019 6:24pm

people would do better to put effort into paying what they're legally required to do or else do without the car until all expenses can be afforded instead of spending so much time and energy ducking responsibility.

Motor tax summons

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