Can I put a gate in my rear boundary wall without PP?

justaq · 21-08-2018 6:52pm #1

I live in a housing estate. My property has a ca1.8m high boundary wall at the rear which was built as part of the original housing development. On one side of the wall is my garden, on the other side is a public open space with some trees, which is part of the same housing estate. The nearest roadway or footpath to the wall is about 30m away, across the green area. The estate roads and common areas have been taken into charge by the council a few years ago.

My question is: do I need planning permission to put a pedestrian gate in the wall given it is accessing a public common area? The gate is the same height as the wall, so about 1.8m and less than a metre wide.

I can’t find any useful guidance on irish planning related websites. However, from the UK planning portal it seems clear it would not need PP there.
I guess much of our planning regs are consistent with the UK, but maybe that’s just me being hopeful!

Would appreciate advice from anyone knowledgable in the area.

Thanks

BryanF · 21-08-2018 8:37pm

Planning required. Contact local authority.

DOCARCH · 25-08-2018 5:57am

I am going to contradict BryanF and say probably no planning required, as long as it is a pedestrian gate (only) and as long as it opens to a public/common area. Class 5 exempted development. But...contact local authority (to check).

justaq · 25-08-2018 5:05pm

Thanks both for taking the time to respond. Think the responses highlight that it’s a grey area!

@DOCARCH, I had come to a similar conclusion, but someone else I spoke to was of the view that it is not “altering” the wall, rather it is creating an opening in it. I can’t however find any reference in the planning regs to creating an opening ...

Fully intend on contacting my local authority, just want to get my ducks in a row first ...

DOCARCH · 25-08-2018 7:22pm

CLASS 5

The construction, erection or alteration, within or bounding the curtilage of a house, of a gate, gateway, railing or wooden fence or a wall of brick, stone, blocks with decorative finish, other concrete blocks or mass concrete.

1. The height of any such structure shall not exceed 2 metres or, in the case of a wall or fence within or bounding any garden or other space in front of a house, 1.2 metres.

2. Every wall other than a dry or natural stone wall bounding any garden or other space shall be capped and the face of any wall of concrete or concrete block (other than blocks with decorative finish) which will be visible from any road, path or public area, including public open space, shall be rendered or plastered.

3. No such structure shall be a metal palisade or other security fence.

Angry bird · 25-08-2018 7:29pm

Yep, planning not required.

B9K9 · 12-09-2018 3:11pm

Would that include a gated or non gated driveway? We are looking at sale of a property whose car entrance was moved away from a bad bend about 10m, giving better safety of driving in and out.

Gumbo · 12-09-2018 7:23pm

B9K9 wrote: »

Would that include a gated or non gated driveway? We are looking at sale of a property whose car entrance was moved away from a bad bend about 10m, giving better safety of driving in and out.

Alterations to a vehicular entrance requires planning normally.

DOCARCH · 13-09-2018 7:07am

kceire wrote: »

Alterations to a vehicular entrance requires planning normally.

Yip. New, or altering existing, vehicular entrances (always) require planning permission.

justaq · 06-10-2018 3:04pm

Quick update to close off this thread ... our local authority has confirmed that the gate is Class 5 Exempted Development. Thanks all for your comments.

justaq · 15-09-2019 2:13pm

Final update ... neighbour subsequently appealed the LA decision to ABP ðŸ™„ ... ABP came to the same conclusion - Exempted development. Understandably it took them a while - no doubt they have more pressing cases to adjudicate on with the housing crisis going on. Case closed.

For info, if a rear gate opens onto (or in proximity to) a public road (>4m wide) this will cause it to be deexempted and it will require PP. This seems to me to be the part that causes the most confusion - in our case it opens onto public green space so was ok. There are some other reasons it could be deexempted, but mostly they are unusual circumstances like opening onto a special heritage area, etc.

Hopefully this is helpful.

Tomal · 15-07-2020 9:14am

I saw this thread in 2018 when was thinking of doing the same but then left it and days ran into months etc.... but now thinking of doing again and I see that this plan was exempted. Our work is exactly the same opening going into public park but smaller door leaving capping and 2 block depth in wall above opening so wall is still in continuity.

Can someone pm me the ABP case number for above as may need to reference it.

Thanks

Tomal · 15-07-2020 9:38am

I saw this thread in 2018 when was thinking of doing the same but then left it and days ran into months etc.... but now thinking of doing again and I see that this plan was exempted. Our work is exactly the same opening going into public park but smaller door leaving capping and 2 block depth in wall above opening so wall is still in continuity.

Can someone pm me the ABP case number for above as may need to reference it.

Thanks

garbo. · 06-03-2021 4:09pm

@Tomal did you get sorted with this? I've plans for house extension and if I could put side entrance into boundary wall it would be help us maximise extension space

Padre_Pio · 30-09-2022 1:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/111258472#Comment_111258472

I'm thinking of doing the same. Rear of the house backs onto a public lane less than 4m wide. Would I still need PP?

Mellor · 04-10-2022 12:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/114037392#Comment_114037392

Old thread, but for reference for others. ABP cases are case specific not a whole lot of use referencing one. Would be more suitable to reference exempt development schedule 2, Class 5 above.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/116497231#Comment_116497231

That would require planning. Class 5 only covers a gate, not a building entrance.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119683039#Comment_119683039

Contact the council and seek a section 5 declaration. The exempt clause is;

CLASS 5

The construction, erection or alteration, within or bounding the curtilage of a house, of a gate, gateway, railing or wooden fence or a wall of brick, stone, blocks with decorative finish, other concrete blocks or mass concrete.

unkel · 04-10-2022 12:47am

So how about this one. In a housing estate over 20 years. On the other side of my boundary wall is a very large undeveloped area formerly owned by a farmer but then passed hands to the county council and then various private developers but it has been like that for many, many years. This area can easily be accessed from various public roads a few hundred meters away. People walk their dogs there. It would be handy if I could put a small gate in my wall to let my dogs have a run of the field. Allowed without PP? And if not, what are the chances that if I went ahead, I'd be in trouble over it?

DOCARCH · 04-10-2022 5:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698243#Comment_119698243

Planning permission required if it's on to private land and obviously the consent of the landowner. The landowner is unlikely to be happy as it could be the beginning of some sort of right of way issue over their land!

If did decide to go ahead, just be prepared to have to remove the gate and build back up the wall at some stage.

unkel · 04-10-2022 5:50pm

Cheers @DOCARCH - very much appreciated. Was kinda expecting that to be the case, but good to see it confirmed.

xeresod · 04-10-2022 6:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698243#Comment_119698243

Could you knock out a couple of blocks at ground level (with a lintel/appropriate support added) to act as a "doggy door" or do you want to go out with them for the run about the field?

(Although you could wriggle though too if limber enough 🤣)

Padre_Pio · 04-10-2022 6:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698363#Comment_119698363

Sometimes I wonder if it's better to ask forgiveness than draw attention to yourself.

Mellor · 11-10-2022 4:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698363#Comment_119698363

Landowner permission required to use such a gate. But not to build it imho. It's entirely on his property its not impacting the land owner by its existence.

But using it as I said requires permission. But that's a legal issue not a planning issue.

DOCARCH · 11-10-2022 6:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119728743#Comment_119728743

True! But I suppose you would want to make sure you own the wall in the first place. You could not do this in a party (boundary) wall without the permission of the other party.

Mellor · 11-10-2022 6:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119728782#Comment_119728782

Yes, completely correct. A boundary to another property (As opposed to a public area) could be shared, or below entirely to one person or the other. In either case you need permission to use gate, which wold probably include permission to build it if needed.

unkel · 11-10-2022 9:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119728795#Comment_119728795

This is a very interesting point. Someone local told me that it is custom for when new estates are built that boundary walls were erected entirely within the land owned by the new owner. So you can do with your wall whatever you like. Make a door in it and walk through it. Obviously if you take a few more steps into the field, you'd then be trespassing 😁

No idea if this is true or not. How would I check this? Are the exact records of what land is owned by whom, publicly available somewhere? If so, how can I translate those records in practice you my boundary wall location (without having to employ professional surveyors)?

Mellor · 11-10-2022 11:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119729055#Comment_119729055

You hear all sort of claims about boundary walls. Sometimes it’s one way, sometimes another. There’s no real rules or certainties that is adhered to.

But a boundary of the land that was not part of the construction is more likely to be fully on the site of construction. You could check the land registry map, but are typically not detailed enough to confirm

unkel · 11-10-2022 11:32am

Cheers Mellor. So how would this work in a legal dispute, the precise location of a boundary surely must be registered somewhere?

DOCARCH · 11-10-2022 2:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119729558#Comment_119729558

You would be surprised! I would say, historically, quite rarely.

unkel · 11-10-2022 3:00pm

I looked up my property on the various registers and I can clearly see it, the freehold ID number, the square meterage and all, but the definition of the boundary seems a bit vague. And I don't get the impression that if you go for the full €40 official version that it will be any better?

muffler · 11-10-2022 3:26pm

Land Registry / PRAI maps and documents will not indicate boundary lines on walls. The only chance of getting this detail, if it ever existed, is from old deeds where a written description would have been attached. The old Registry of Deeds would have held a lot of those but as they have now been consumed by the PRAI there is little chance of obtaining same.

Wildly Boaring · 21-11-2022 8:32pm

Boundaries are a pain.

Unless the fence/wall are very obviously within your land it is difficult to prove.

The PRAI maps even say on them that they are not definitive boundary mapping.

Can I put a gate in my rear boundary wall without PP?

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