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First time buyers - planning woes

  • 21-11-2020 10:41pm
    #1
    xtaluke
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭


    Hello all

    Just looking for a little advice. Apologies if this is a little lengthy - tried to keep it brief!

    First time buyers, sale agreed on a rural one-off house, built in 2000.

    Plans - 4 bedrooms - 2 upstairs, 2 downstairs. Master upstairs has 2 dormer windows (front/rear), other upstairs bedroom has 1 dormer to the rear, landing has 1 dormer to the front
    Reality - actual house has 5 bedrooms - 3 upstairs, 2 downstairs. None of the 3 upstairs bedrooms have dormers - all velux roof lights.

    Our engineer reckons the Planning Authority would have issue with the changes upstairs.
    He's also pointed out that none of the upstairs 'bedrooms' comply with building regs, because there's inadequate egress from all velux window openings - floor to window opening height is 1.85 meters, should be max 1.1 meters.

    Vendors hired their own engineer for a second opinion. His certificate of compliance makes no specific confirmation that the first floor complies with planning, just that the first floor does not exceed the granted floor space.
    He agrees that roof lights do not comply with building regs, and so, has excluded them from his opinion of compliance.

    There was talk that vendor would sort out the windows, but nothing on that in latest correspondence. Beginning to sound like "take it or leave it"


    Couple of questions:

    1. Do we just walk away!?
    We've struggled to find a place that ticks as many boxes for us as this one. Assuming our bank even agrees to lend, (considering it's technically a 2 bedroom house being sold as a 5 bed), are we asking for trouble down the road?

    2. Does the fact that the upstairs layout was changed to include an additional bedroom breach planning, if the granted floor space hasn't been exceeded?
    ie If we were to fix the windows so they comply with building regs, would we then comply with planning upstairs?

    3. We did have plans to make changes to the house at a later date, but if the upstairs IS in breach of planning, (even after rectifying the issue with the windows), am I correct in thinking we'd be barred from future work, even if that work may have been planning exempt?



    Many thanks for making it this far. Appreciate any thoughts/input...


Comments

  • #2
    Ginger83
    Registered Users Posts: 3,544 ✭✭✭Ginger83


    Sorry to hear about your situation.
    Others will be more knowledgeable but from my experience breach of regulations is an odd one. I contacted the Building Control Authority in my area about my builder breaching building regulations and they didn't want to know.
    They declined to inspect the work.


  • #3
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,561 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    whats the ceiling height upstairs?

    was it advertised as two bed with storage upstairs?

    The internal layout up stairs is not a planning issue, the switch from dormer to velux may be, is it visible from the road?
    Not having the dormers is a bonus
    The failing the fire regs is the main issue for me, as a buyer, not just non compliance

    are all the bedrooms upstairs independently accessible
    any ensuites up stairs?

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #4
    Dudda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Dudda


    As Calahonda52 stated. Planning permission doesn't matter for an internal layout so the layout upstairs and the number of bedrooms internally isn't an issue as long as they all go directly out onto a landing. If you've to go through one bedroom to get to another that's classified as an 'internal room' in the fire regulations and another issue.

    If the velux is 1.85 meters high how would anyone open them for ventilation? Are they electric? It's so high you could probably put another velux directly under the original which would solve all the fire issues.

    With a rooflight that high I'm presuming head height isn't an issue.


  • #5
    xtaluke
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭xtaluke


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    whats the ceiling height upstairs?

    was it advertised as two bed with storage upstairs?

    The internal layout up stairs is not a planning issue, the switch from dormer to velux may be, is it visible from the road?
    Not having the dormers is a bonus
    The failing the fire regs is the main issue for me, as a buyer, not just non compliance

    are all the bedrooms upstairs independently accessible
    any ensuites up stairs?

    Don't actually know what the ceiling height is upstairs. Doh.
    House advertised as 5 bed
    Almost certain the 'new' veluxes to rear & side aren't visible from the road - 2nd opinion engineer states as much on his report
    All upstairs rooms have own doorways out on to the landing
    One ensuite upstairs - in the Master bedroom

    Dudda wrote: »
    As Calahonda52 stated. Planning permission doesn't matter for an internal layout so the layout upstairs and the number of bedrooms internally isn't an issue as long as they all go directly out onto a landing. If you've to go through one bedroom to get to another that's classified as an 'internal room' in the fire regulations and another issue.

    If the velux is 1.85 meters high how would anyone open them for ventilation? Are they electric? It's so high you could probably put another velux directly under the original which would solve all the fire issues.

    With a rooflight that high I'm presuming head height isn't an issue.

    No, rooflights aren't electric.
    Head height didn't seem to be an issue when we were there.


    Relief to hear that the layout/bedroom change may not be a planning issue.
    Although, our engineer & solicitor have pointed out that the septic tank for the granted 4 bedroom house may not be sufficient for the built 5 bedrooms. 2nd opinion engineer has reported "it appears to be operating at satisfactory capacity"

    We're hoping to get vendors to sort out the windows for compliance with building regs - it's a huge issue for us. There was verbal agreement that they would, but that may turn into a battle.

    Many thanks to all for the input so far - it's very much appreciated.


  • #6
    iColdFusion
    Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭iColdFusion


    Cant give an expert opinion other than to say velux windows in bedrooms are a pain as they can be quite noisy when heavy rain is bouncing off them and you might have issues getting house insurance if it doesn't comply with the regulations at the time, especially from a fire point of view, that's a major hurdle immediately, probably not that many smoke alarms either if built in 2000?

    And im sure the property tax people would like some more money every year if the house has more bedrooms and a higher value than declared.


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  • #7
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,561 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    iColdFusion wrote: »

    And im sure the property tax people would like some more money every year if the house has more bedrooms and a higher value than declared.

    Red herring, if you are aware of the valuation rules/dates/processes.
    5 beds might be suboptimal

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #8
    xtaluke
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭xtaluke


    iColdFusion wrote: »
    ...you might have issues getting house insurance if it doesn't comply with the regulations at the time, especially from a fire point of view, that's a major hurdle immediately, probably not that many smoke alarms either if built in 2000?

    That's something we'd considered, alright. We're not sure how we'd insure the house - a 2 bed with lots of swanky storage upstairs, or a 5 bed where 3 of those bedrooms don't comply with building regs.

    We're still waiting to hear if the bank would consider lending, taking the various issues into account. In the meantime vendors refusing to do anything about the upstairs, demanding signed contracts and threatening to re-advertise house. Looking like it may well fall through.

    Part of me is relieved...


  • #9
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,782 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Appears to be issues.
    Both planning and building regulations compliance issues.

    The problems you see now will be your problems if you buy.
    Engage a competent professional to carry out a full survey and advise you on exactly what’s required to regularise the dwelling including any works required to bring it up to standard.

    Then make your decision with your head and wallet rather than your heart.


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