Voting Rights - whats yours?

Village Crazy Lady · 10-07-2019 11:58am #1

Quick question....

currently the voting rights of residents in Ireland are as follows....

The following people are eligible to vote:
Irish citizens can vote in every election and referendum.
British citizens may vote at Dáil, European and local elections.
Other EU citizens may vote at European and local elections*

Now i was born in england but parents moved here before i was one. I have lived here most of my life, yet can't vote in referendums, yet VICA, is looking for the irish abroad to have the vote.

Why whould people who live abroad and don't pay tax have the right to vote and yet i have been here well over 40years, cruising more on the side of 50:p, can't?

I know from experience that if you are resident in the UK or France you can vote in all elections.

Ragnar Lothbrok · 10-07-2019 12:08pm

I'm in the same boat as you - lived here 30 years. If you want to vote in referendums and Presidential elections, you need to get yourself naturalised and become an Irish citizen officially (I realise you probably consider yourself Irish, and to all intents and purposes you are). This costs about €1,000, so although I would do it if I had a spare grand, I'm not losing any sleep over it either.

I'm politically active too, and have voted in every election since I turned 18 (with the obvious exception of the referendums and Presidentials) and to be honest, although I would have fairly strong views on some of the referendum issues, I don't feel as though I'm missing out too much.

As far as Irish citizens living abroad go, I think they should probably have an entitlement to vote up to a certain stage, say maybe 10 or 15 years after they left Ireland. A UK citizen, for example, has the right to vote in elections for up to 15 years after they left the UK.

My daughter emigrated to Australia 7 years ago, and she too would be very political and would certainly like to vote in elections that affect her immediate family, and possibly herself if she ever chooses to return to Ireland (which I would love, although it's unlikely

)

biko · 10-07-2019 12:14pm

Become a citizen, what's the problem?

BrokenArrows · 10-07-2019 12:20pm

Village Crazy Lady wrote: »

Quick question....

currently the voting rights of residents in Ireland are as follows....

The following people are eligible to vote:
Irish citizens can vote in every election and referendum.
British citizens may vote at Dáil, European and local elections.
Other EU citizens may vote at European and local elections*

Now i was born in england but parents moved here before i was one. I have lived here most of my life, yet can't vote in referendums, yet VICA, is looking for the irish abroad to have the vote.

Why whould people who live abroad and don't pay tax have the right to vote and yet i have been here well over 40years, cruising more on the side of 50:p, can't?

I know from experience that if you are resident in the UK or France you can vote in all elections.

If you care about voting then become a citizen. easy.

branie2 · 10-07-2019 12:20pm

Apply for citizenship

10-07-2019 12:24pm

Just had a look at the cost.

€175 per application then €950 certification fee per adult and €200 per child.

Cina · 10-07-2019 12:25pm

I think it makes sense that you should be a citizen to vote but Irish people living abroad should be able to, too.

Village Crazy Lady · 10-07-2019 12:25pm

i can apply, i can actually hold 2 passports but when i renewed my passport last summer it took 10 days and cost me 65e

Village Crazy Lady · 10-07-2019 12:26pm

1000 euros compared to 65e and 10 days???

El Weirdo · 10-07-2019 12:45pm

I was born in England, moved over nearly 30 years ago and I can vote in all elections.

Ragnar Lothbrok · 10-07-2019 1:08pm

El Weirdo wrote: »

I was born in England, moved over nearly 30 years ago and I can vote in all elections.

Irish parent(s) or grandparent(s) give you entitlement to citizenship though.

Ragnar Lothbrok · 10-07-2019 1:09pm

Village Crazy Lady wrote: »

i can apply, i can actually hold 2 passports but when i renewed my passport last summer it took 10 days and cost me 65e

So are you not already an Irish citizen if you have an Irish passport?

Village Crazy Lady · 10-07-2019 1:53pm

Yes i can, that's not the question, why should people abroad be allowed to vote for the president, but I'm living here, and numerous others who make a contribution to this country are denied the right to vote, , you can vote in all elections once resident in most countries, so why not here

odyssey06 · 10-07-2019 1:59pm

You forgot the Seanad elections in which you have to know the secret handshake and have the right tie to vote in

victor8600 · 10-07-2019 2:05pm

Village Crazy Lady wrote: »

Yes i can, that's not the question, why should people abroad be allowed to vote for the president, but I'm living here, and numerous others who make a contribution to this country are denied the right to vote, , you can vote in all elections once resident in most countries, so why not here

So *you* can actually vote in all elections because you are an Irish citizen. Same for all others who lived here for more than 5 years and paid taxes, or have Irish spouses or ancestry. They can apply to become citizens and then vote in all elections. If they do not want to become citizens, then why would they expect to have the right to vote in Irish elections?

victor8600 · 10-07-2019 2:09pm

Village Crazy Lady wrote: »

I know from experience that if you are resident in the UK or France you can vote in all elections.

It means that the Wikipedia got it wrong in saying that foreigners cannot vote for French elections (except for local or EU), right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigners_to_vote#France

Badly Drunk Boy · 10-07-2019 2:15pm

Village Crazy Lady wrote: »

1000 euros compared to 65e and 10 days???

The €1000 is for full citizenship, the right to vote in all elections/referendums, isn't it, (not just for a passport)?

El Weirdo · 10-07-2019 2:22pm

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

Irish parent(s) or grandparent(s) give you entitlement to citizenship though.

Oh yeah.

Village Crazy Lady wrote: »

Yes i can, that's not the question, why should people abroad be allowed to vote for the president, but I'm living here, and numerous others who make a contribution to this country are denied the right to vote, , you can vote in all elections once resident in most countries, so why not here

It's reciprocity.

Using your example of a UK citizen being able to vote in general and local elections here, but not presidential elections or referendums. It's because there is no equivalent for the UK to offer Irish citizens living in the UK.

Ragnar Lothbrok · 10-07-2019 2:45pm

Village Crazy Lady wrote: »

Quick question....

currently the voting rights of residents in Ireland are as follows....

The following people are eligible to vote:
Irish citizens can vote in every election and referendum.
British citizens may vote at Dáil, European and local elections.
Other EU citizens may vote at European and local elections*

Now i was born in england but parents moved here before i was one. I have lived here most of my life, yet can't vote in referendums, yet VICA, is looking for the irish abroad to have the vote.

Why whould people who live abroad and don't pay tax have the right to vote and yet i have been here well over 40years, cruising more on the side of 50:p, can't?

I know from experience that if you are resident in the UK or France you can vote in all elections.

Village Crazy Lady wrote: »

i can apply, i can actually hold 2 passports but when i renewed my passport last summer it took 10 days and cost me 65e

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

So are you not already an Irish citizen if you have an Irish passport?

Village Crazy Lady wrote: »

Yes i can, that's not the question, why should people abroad be allowed to vote for the president, but I'm living here, and numerous others who make a contribution to this country are denied the right to vote, , you can vote in all elections once resident in most countries, so why not here

Sorry Crazy, I'm not really following you here. Are YOU an Irish citizen or not? If you are, you are entitled to vote in referendums and Presidential elections along with everything else. If you're not an Irish citizen, you aren't entitled to vote in referendums or Presidential elections.

The real question you're asking, it seems to me, is why should non-resident Irish citizens be allowed to vote in Irish elections, and my point of view has already been stated here:

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

My daughter emigrated to Australia 7 years ago, and she too would be very political and would certainly like to vote in elections that affect her immediate family, and possibly herself if she ever chooses to return to Ireland (which I would love, although it's unlikely )

Village Crazy Lady · 10-07-2019 3:07pm

no i cant vote cause i don't have citizenship, i can apply for citizenship by naturalisation, which costs over a 1000 euros, it doesn't matter for financial reasons i have chosen not to, but my passport does not define who i am, im irish. But why should someone who is living abroad and not paying anything into the country(unless your the rare few who are still paying tax for whatever reason, property etc), be allowed to vote in referendums, when I can't even choose who I want to represent me? thats all, thats all im asking

Village Crazy Lady · 10-07-2019 3:09pm

my brother lives in france with a uk passport and is allowed to vote in all elections, not just local etc.

El Tarangu · 10-07-2019 3:15pm

Seems kind of a bit unfair that someone who has lived here for 30 or 40 or 50 years, and pays taxes, has kids going to school & all the rest, has to pay €1k to be naturalised. Whereas someone born and raised in the UK, who has maybe never visited here and only wants the Irish passport for travelling to Spain post-Brexit, gets an Irish passport for €200 based on the fact that they have an Irish granny.

Village Crazy Lady · 10-07-2019 3:15pm

referendums are rare in england, so it never really comes up for my irish friends living there

El Weirdo · 10-07-2019 3:18pm

Village Crazy Lady wrote: »

referendums are rare in england, so it never really comes up for my irish friends living there

It's more the fact that referendums over there aren't legally binding, rather than the lack of them.

Village Crazy Lady · 10-07-2019 3:22pm

I agree, but its supposed to be just about the president and nothing else, but i am wondering also if people abroad are able to vote for the president, is it just a step towards allowing people abroad to vote in other referendums which are written into law that ultimately affect me and my children, but doesn't affect them if they have no intention of coming home.

I love this country and it makes me happy but it frustrates me that somethings are just out of reach for the average crazy lady.

Village Crazy Lady · 10-07-2019 3:24pm

agreed, and yes all my children were born here!! and are going to school here and hopefully one day will contribute to this country like my parents did, and I am too.

ILoveYourVibes · 10-07-2019 3:26pm

Village Crazy Lady wrote: »

I know from experience that if you are resident in the UK or France you can vote in all elections.

You have that wrong.

The following cannot vote in a UK Parliament election:
members of the House of Lords

EU citizens (other than UK, Republic of Ireland, Cyprus and Malta) resident in the UK

anyone other than British, Irish and qualifying Commonwealth citizens

convicted persons detained in pursuance of their sentences, excluding contempt of court (though remand prisoners, unconvicted prisoners and civil prisoners can vote if they are on the electoral register)

anyone found guilty within the previous five years of corrupt or illegal practices in connection with an election

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registration/who-is-eligible-to-vote-at-a-uk-general-election

Also you said you were born in the UK if you are a British citizen you can vote here. Just not in referendums though.

British citizens may vote at Dáil, European and local elections.

Other EU citizens may vote at European and local elections*

Non-EU citizens can vote at local elections only.

That is the current situation as it stands.

If you hold British citizenship OP you can vote in Dail European and local elections. That won't change after brexit it will still be the same. It's a separate arrangement the UK and Ireland have.

The Uk treat residents from non EU countries as we do.

Ragnar Lothbrok · 10-07-2019 4:01pm

Village Crazy Lady wrote: »

no i cant vote cause i don't have citizenship, i can apply for citizenship by naturalisation, which costs over a 1000 euros, it doesn't matter for financial reasons i have chosen not to, but my passport does not define who i am, im irish. But why should someone who is living abroad and not paying anything into the country(unless your the rare few who are still paying tax for whatever reason, property etc), be allowed to vote in referendums, when I can't even choose who I want to represent me? thats all, thats all im asking

You can choose who represents you, though. Councillors and TDs are elected at Local and Dáil elections, which you're entitled to vote in.

The President in some sense "represents" you I suppose, but the role doesn't have much more to it apart from being a figurehead.

Even IF Irish citizens living abroad were given the right to vote for who becomes President, it means nothing in real terms. There are also reasons why Irish citizens living abroad should have the right to vote in more meaningful elections and referendums, as I've already outlined.

I really don't understand what your exact problem is

Village Crazy Lady · 10-07-2019 4:05pm

the irish can vote in Uk paliament elections, its just other EU citizens cant, something to do with

Village Crazy Lady · 10-07-2019 4:08pm

i don't really have a problem, it was just a question, but I don't agree that people living abroad should have the right to vote in meaningful elections as you point out. We have the common travel area, why not the same voting rights?

rainbow kirby · 10-07-2019 4:42pm

Village Crazy Lady wrote: »

the irish can vote in Uk paliament elections, its just other EU citizens cant, something to do with

Probably from the 1949 Ireland Act and possibly an assumption that the Republic would be a short lived thing :pac:

Dual Irish/British citizen here (born in Dublin, mum born in Birmingham), too long in the UK (6 years) to be legally able to vote in Ireland, full voting rights in the UK.

Ragnar Lothbrok · 10-07-2019 5:50pm

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Dual Irish/British citizen here (born in Dublin, mum born in Birmingham), too long in the UK (6 years) to be legally able to vote in Ireland, full voting rights in the UK.

This raises another interesting question. As I said earlier, my daughter has been living in Australia 7 years now, but has never been taken off the electoral register, so every election she gets a polling card delivered to my home address. I wonder if she was here on holiday on an election day if she'd be *legally* entitled to vote?

Village Crazy Lady · 10-07-2019 7:32pm

I wonder what the penalty would be? Would it be considered voter fraud? Good question!

dotsman · 10-07-2019 7:36pm

El Weirdo wrote: »

It's more the fact that referendums over there aren't legally binding, rather than the lack of them.

What do you mean? What would the point be of a referendum if it wasn't legally binding?

Village Crazy Lady · 10-07-2019 10:22pm

Even the leave referendum wasn't legally binding, even though that had been lost on a lot of people in england

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 10-07-2019 10:33pm

dotsman wrote: »

What do you mean? What would the point be of a referendum if it wasn't legally binding?

Due to the principle of parliamentary sovereignty in the UK, they cannot be constitutionally binding on either the Government or Parliament, although they usually have a persuasive political effect.

Zaph · 10-07-2019 10:35pm

Some interesting views of Irish people or people of Irish descent in Monday's Irish Times.

Here's one example:

Peter Coghlan - Left Ireland over 45 years ago and now lives in Poole, UK.

Peter Coghlan left Ireland over 45 years ago and now lives in Poole, UK: ‘My ties with Ireland are of even greater importance to me now in these uncertain days.’ Peter Coghlan left Ireland over 45 years ago and now lives in Poole, UK

“My ties with Ireland are of even greater importance to me now in these uncertain days. The ability to have a say - however small - in how our country is represented on the world stage is of huge importance to me.

So he's been out of the country for 45 years and he feels he should have a say in how the country is run? Why? Any election outcome isn't going to affect him, so why should he be allowed to impose his views on those who live here and will have to live with the result?

Also interesting how a few people commented on how conservative Irish people abroad often are. I certainly don't want a bunch of people with ridiculous notions of what the "old country" is having any say in how our modern, pluralist society is run. It took us long enough to shake off that backwards mentality, we certainly don't want to be importing it back into the country.

El Weirdo · 10-07-2019 10:36pm

dotsman wrote: »

What do you mean? What would the point be of a referendum if it wasn't legally binding?

In the UK, Parliament is sovereign and can basically reverse any decision made by a referendum.

Glass fused light · 10-07-2019 10:37pm

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

This raises another interesting question. As I said earlier, my daughter has been living in Australia 7 years now, but has never been taken off the electoral register, so every election she gets a polling card delivered to my home address. I wonder if she was here on holiday on an election day if she'd be *legally* entitled to vote?

Legally she can't vote as she is no longer ordinarily resident.

From citizens info

To be eligible to be included in the Register of Electors, you must:

Be at least 18 years old on the day the Register comes into force (15 February)
Have been ordinarily resident in the State on 1 September in the year preceding the coming into force of the Register.

Glass fused light · 10-07-2019 10:55pm

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

The €1000 is for full citizenship, the right to vote in all elections/referendums, isn't it, (not just for a passport)?

The right to ask for the Irish government to help you while abroad.
The right to explain that your Irish not ....
These are importation as the Irish are usually liked better and have not been engaged in recent wars. The country you are in may even have a paddy day.

The right to read Peig, and complain about the weather are available to all who live in Ireland or abroad.

totru kekka · 11-07-2019 12:58am

i always exercise my right NOT to vote

JohnnyFlash · 11-07-2019 1:04am

What’s the story with the Senate elections? My undergrad was in UCC, and my Masters was in Trinity. Are you allowed vote in both? I vote in both - not that it makes all that much difference.

Ragnar Lothbrok · 11-07-2019 9:13am

Zaph wrote: »

So he's been out of the country for 45 years and he feels he should have a say in how the country is run? Why? Any election outcome isn't going to affect him, so why should he be allowed to impose his views on those who live here and will have to live with the result?

Also interesting how a few people commented on how conservative Irish people abroad often are. I certainly don't want a bunch of people with ridiculous notions of what the "old country" is having any say in how our modern, pluralist society is run. It took us long enough to shake off that backwards mentality, we certainly don't want to be importing it back into the country.

I think anyone who emigrates should be given a vote for a maximum of 10 years. Up to that stage they probably still have a lot of investment in how the country is governed. After 10 years abroad, not only are they more unlikely to return to live in Ireland, but their real understanding of day-to-day life here is also much reduced.

Perhaps the older generation of Irish people abroad are more conservative, but I imagine that the vast majority of the younger people who have emigrated recently would be far more liberal in their outlook, which is pretty much the same as at home.

klaaaz · 11-07-2019 9:45am

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

What’s the story with the Senate elections? My undergrad was in UCC, and my Masters was in Trinity. Are you allowed vote in both? I vote in both - not that it makes all that much difference.

The vast majority of citizens don't have the right to vote in Seanad elections.

the beer revolu · 11-07-2019 10:06am

El Tarangu wrote: »

Seems kind of a bit unfair that someone who has lived here for 30 or 40 or 50 years, and pays taxes, has kids going to school & all the rest, has to pay €1k to be naturalised. Whereas someone born and raised in the UK, who has maybe never visited here and only wants the Irish passport for travelling to Spain post-Brexit, gets an Irish passport for €200 based on the fact that they have an Irish granny.

My British wife is very concerned about having only a UK passport post Brexit. She's an EU citizen, hadlived here since 2005 and is married to an Irish citizen (me, obviously) since 2007.
Seems wicked unfair that someone who's never even been in Ireland could pick up a passport for €200 while it'll cost her over €1000. Kicker is that she didn't even have a vote in the Brexit referendum due to being out of UK for too long.

JohnnyFlash · 11-07-2019 10:10am

klaaaz wrote: »

The vast majority of citizens don't have the right to vote in Seanad elections.

No harm to be honest.

Voting Rights - whats yours?

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