Growing wealth

AndrewJRenko · 29-09-2019 9:51pm

Uncle Charlie wrote: »

I don't think so they would have noway of knowing what you spend cash on especially in terms of services.

Revenue would have no way of knowing where you keep your cash.

All the people on this list didn't think Revenue would have anyway of finding out what they were up to. They were all convinced that they were so much smarter than the big eejits in Revenue. They were wrong and so are you.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/press-office/list-of-defaulters/index.aspx

Uncle Charlie wrote: »

Yes but if you keep cash in the right place its very unlikely to get robbed.

All these people thought there cash was safe 'in the right place' at home too.

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/09/23/4180006-mayo-gardai-probing-30000-bohola-cash-robbery/

https://extra.ie/2019/05/30/news/irish-news/gang-steal-200k-from-family-home
https://www.radiokerry.ie/large-quantity-jewellery-cash-stolen-currow-home/
https://www.derrydaily.net/2019/08/28/cash-stolen-in-co-derry-house-burglary/
https://www.northernsound.ie/jewellery-and-cash-stolen-in-burglaries-close-to-monaghan-tyrone-border/
https://www.donegaldaily.com/2019/04/04/large-sum-of-cash-stolen-in-letterkenny-home-burglary/

Unfortunately, there are many ways for these guys to find and get your cash. Unfortunately, the easiest way for them may well be to knock nine kinds of sh1te out of you or your loved one until you decide that the cash isn't that important any more.

This is not a sound basis for your future.

Uncle Charlie wrote: »

Its the same as what Denis O'Brien does but when the little man does it they try and say its illegal.

Evading tax IS illegal. Denis has a team of very well paid lawyers and accountants to keep him on the right side of the law. You don't.

Mad_maxx · 29-09-2019 10:32pm

Uncle Charlie wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Your borderline trolling

No you just don't live in the real world.

There are some people who only deal in cash.

Your just trolling, no borderline about it

MyStubbleItches · 29-09-2019 10:35pm

There are some really innocent folk posting on this thread. Cash is so easy to hide.

AndrewJRenko · 29-09-2019 11:45pm

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

There are some really innocent folk posting on this thread. Cash is so easy to hide.

Meet lots of other innocent people who thought the same thing
https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/press-office/list-of-defaulters/index.aspx

Bobblehats · 29-09-2019 11:49pm

Your elf is ur welf

The J Stands for Jay · 30-09-2019 12:03am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

If you aim for equity diversification in Ireland, that means having to sell your fund after seven years with a 40% exit tax, U. S etfs are no longer available to be bought and even when they were a few years ago, you had no choice but to take the dividend cash pay out, reinvesting the dividend wasn't an option

Don't you mean 8 years and 41%?

The J Stands for Jay · 30-09-2019 12:10am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

That's text book orthodox investment advice, doesn't always apply, this country penalises equity investment in the way it does not with property, a market drop is not a problem unless you are carrying a lot of debt.

Same taxes on both. Not seeing this penalty you're talking about.

Mad_maxx · 30-09-2019 8:50am

McGaggs wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

If you aim for equity diversification in Ireland, that means having to sell your fund after seven years with a 40% exit tax, U. S etfs are no longer available to be bought and even when they were a few years ago, you had no choice but to take the dividend cash pay out, reinvesting the dividend wasn't an option

Don't you mean 8 years and 41%?

Thank you for correcting me, was a real blow when U. S etfs became unavailable to Irish investors, stuck with the eight year rule now

Mad_maxx · 30-09-2019 8:58am

McGaggs wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

That's text book orthodox investment advice, doesn't always apply, this country penalises equity investment in the way it does not with property, a market drop is not a problem unless you are carrying a lot of debt.

Same taxes on both. Not seeing this penalty you're talking about.

1% stamp duty on purchase of shares

Compelled to account for capital gains via the eight year disposal rule with EU domiciled funds

Not allowed use previous capital loses against EU fund gains

The J Stands for Jay · 30-09-2019 8:59am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Thank you for correcting me, was a real blow when U. S etfs became unavailable to Irish investors, stuck with the eight year rule now

Yeah, most of the US ETF providers have EU domiciled versions of their funds and won't produce the newly required documentation for their US versions. Of course, that suits everyone fine, except for our tiny population who are lumbered with Revenue's strange interpretation of ETF taxation.

Mad_maxx · 30-09-2019 9:11am

McGaggs wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Thank you for correcting me, was a real blow when U. S etfs became unavailable to Irish investors, stuck with the eight year rule now

Yeah, most of the US ETF providers have EU domiciled versions of their funds and won't produce the newly required documentation for their US versions. Of course, that suits everyone fine, except for our tiny population who are lumbered with Revenue's strange interpretation of ETF taxation.

So you agree that the tax system is not friendly here?

The J Stands for Jay · 30-09-2019 9:34am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

So you agree that the tax system is not friendly here?

I agree that the 5ax system is not friendly. The system for EU domiciled ETFs is ridiculous.
I just don't agree that the treatment of shares and property are different. Both are subject to stamp duty, cash flows (rent and dividends) are both taxed as income, and both are subject to CGT on disposal.

Mad_maxx · 30-09-2019 10:03am

McGaggs wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

So you agree that the tax system is not friendly here?

I agree that the 5ax system is not friendly. The system for EU domiciled ETFs is ridiculous.
I just don't agree that the treatment of shares and property are different. Both are subject to stamp duty, cash flows (rent and dividends) are both taxed as income, and both are subject to CGT on disposal.

Investors are a lot more likely to buy and sell equities more often than property so the 1% stamp duty is a more frequent hit with equities.

It's easier to create an income stream with property, yields are much higher than the average equity fund

Diversification is much less important than due diligence

sdraobs · 30-09-2019 2:30pm

Sorry to go slightly off topic, but i dont want to create a new topic.

But is there a point in growing wealth into the future? . it seems with global warming there will be (i) at best tax on wealth, or (ii) at worse chaotic carnage where banks will cease to exist overnight. so one day you have a bank statement saying you have million. the next day the paper will be only useful as toilet paper

genuine question- i am considering whether i should save for the future, or spend money now and enjoy the moment.

cnocbui · 30-09-2019 2:38pm

I think there is a point to saving for the future. When it comes to serious wealth taxes vs Climate bilge, I think people will vote with their wallets and governments trying it on, will fall and parties promising it won't get into power.

BrokenArrows · 30-09-2019 2:46pm

Buy 3 properties in a large town/city.
Rent them out for 1300+ per month. Generates about 46.8k a year before taxes.

Should be fairly easy to live off that but you're not exactly living an exotic life style.

1 million isnt really that much money when realistically a 5% return per year before taxes is all you're going to get without being too risky.

Depending on your age you could just give yourself 25k a year for the next 40 years tax free which is the equivalent to about a 35k salary.

4068ac1elhodqr · 30-09-2019 2:55pm

sdraobs wrote: »

Sorry to go slightly off topic, but i dont want to create a new topic.
But is there a point in growing wealth into the future? . it seems with global warming there will be (i) at best tax on wealth, or (ii) at worse chaotic carnage where banks will cease to exist overnight. so one day you have a bank statement saying you have million. the next day the paper will be only useful as toilet paper
genuine question- i am considering whether i should save for the future, or spend money now and enjoy the moment.

Define 'wealth'?

It may be cash paper money (subject to dep') or it may be physical bullion (likely to grow with inflation).

Or, if the banks 'dissapear' (hvery ighly unlikely), it may be a pallet load of mixed 10yr tinned soups, solar panels and wind-up radio/torches - all ideal for bartering (for anything), in such an event. Replace bank collapse for: solar megastorms, pandemic, asteroid impacts and so on.

The answer is balance: spend some, save some, invest some.

Mad_maxx · 30-09-2019 3:00pm

sdraobs wrote: »

Sorry to go slightly off topic, but i dont want to create a new topic.

But is there a point in growing wealth into the future? . it seems with global warming there will be (i) at best tax on wealth, or (ii) at worse chaotic carnage where banks will cease to exist overnight. so one day you have a bank statement saying you have million. the next day the paper will be only useful as toilet paper

genuine question- i am considering whether i should save for the future, or spend money now and enjoy the moment.

Depends how ok you are with being a state dependant

sdraobs · 30-09-2019 3:04pm

Mabel White Sander wrote: »

Define 'wealth'?

It may be cash paper money (subject to dep') or it may be physical bullion (likely to grow with inflation).

Or, if the banks 'dissapear' (hvery ighly unlikely), it may be a pallet load of mixed 10yr tinned soups, solar panels and wind-up radio/torches - all ideal for bartering (for anything), in such an event. Replace bank collapse for: solar megastorms, pandemic, asteroid impacts and so on.

The answer is balance: spend some, save some, invest some.

well i was thinking of a reasonable commons sense of growing wealth. i take your point that wealth should be diversified and include gold. but im not going to spend 500keuros on wind up radios, 10 years of tinned soups. but i suppose that could be a shorting on an economy collapse.

climate change is likely to cause a strong shift in economics. not sure a significant astroid hit is likely in next 100 years.

maybe your answer is right..., spend some, and save some.

sdraobs · 30-09-2019 3:06pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Depends how ok you are with being a state dependant

may be the best choice. spend and enjoy life now. as even if you got nothing when old, the state pays out, what about 20k euro a year etc in pension, medical card, free travel

Mad_maxx · 30-09-2019 3:36pm

sdraobs wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Depends how ok you are with being a state dependant

may be the best choice. spend and enjoy life now. as even if you got nothing when old, the state pays out, what about 20k euro a year etc in pension, medical card, free travel

Unsustainable

Geuze · 30-09-2019 3:36pm

Mabel White Sander wrote: »

Define 'wealth'?

The value of all assets.

4068ac1elhodqr · 30-09-2019 3:53pm

Geuze wrote: »

The value of all assets.

Or what is perceived to be an 'asset'.

Assets may also be directly subject to depreciation (sitting cash or new cars) inflation will make this a loss/liability over time. While other investments will enjoy compund interest growth.

Physical cash itself will likely be phased out in the near future, becoming entirely digital/crytpo and so on. If banks have major problems in the future, then the ability to barter other physical goods may well hold some increased value.

dxhound2005 · 30-09-2019 7:38pm

Since the thread started off asking about an imaginary inheritance of real money, and we have the end of paper money coming up, how prepared are those with digital currency for the processing of bequeathing their wealth?

If it was the case that a computer with a software key was sent to landfill, rendering millions of Euro worth of Bitcoin completely inaccessible, would the same fate befall a fortune where nobody knows the key when the millionaire dies?

Maybe that is an urban myth about the computer?

Uncle Charlie · 30-09-2019 10:46pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

All the people on this list didn't think Revenue would have anyway of finding out what they were up to. They were all convinced that they were so much smarter than the big eejits in Revenue. They were wrong and so are you.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/press-office/list-of-defaulters/index.aspx

For every one person Revenue catch there is 100 they don't catch.

I know a load of travellers driving 181 and 191 vehicles and who have never worked and don't hide their wealth but the Revenue don't seem interested in going after them.

All these people thought there cash was safe 'in the right place' at home too.

If you put cash deep under ground it would not be found they still haven't found the generals gold he buried in the Dublin mountains back in the 80s.

Unfortunately, there are many ways for these guys to find and get your cash. Unfortunately, the easiest way for them may well be to knock nine kinds of sh1te out of you or your loved one until you decide that the cash isn't that important any more.

If they did that I would just give them the small amounts of cash I had in the house and tell them I've no more.

This is not a sound basis for your future.

It is if you do it right.

Evading tax IS illegal. Denis has a team of very well paid lawyers and accountants to keep him on the right side of the law. You don't.

You seem to think we have a moral obligation to pay extra tax when the government are biggest criminals in state.

If O'Brien and Bono can get away with not paying tax I see no reason why the little man should also try and be as "tax efficient" as possible.

cnocbui · 01-10-2019 2:33am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Since the thread started off asking about an imaginary inheritance of real money, and we have the end of paper money coming up, how prepared are those with digital currency for the processing of bequeathing their wealth?

If it was the case that a computer with a software key was sent to landfill, rendering millions of Euro worth of Bitcoin completely inaccessible, would the same fate befall a fortune where nobody knows the key when the millionaire dies?

Maybe that is an urban myth about the computer?

Paper money wont end in my lifetime. Bitcoin is a pretty good way to pass on a sizeable amount without it getting a haircut.

AndrewJRenko · 01-10-2019 7:17am

cnocbui wrote: »

Paper money wont end in my lifetime. Bitcoin is a pretty good way to pass on a sizeable amount without it getting a haircut.

How will the recipient get to spend their "sizeable amount"?

CelticRambler · 01-10-2019 8:08am

Mabel White Sander wrote: »

Physical cash itself will likely be phased out in the near future, becoming entirely digital/crytpo and so on.

Digital/crypto is entirely dependent on both access to a reliable, stable, electricity supply and reliable, stable, digital infrastructure. As of the end of 2019, there is a single country in the world that has been able to guarantee that for all of its citizens, for a period running from 1st January to the 31st December. At a quick estimate, this year alone I have suffered a failure of the digital/crypto process at least a dozen times (most recently yesterday, trying to make a simple bank transfer). There will always be physical cash in the world; if the government doesn't issue legal tender, they'll lose the control that a cashless economy is supposed to give them.

cnocbui · 01-10-2019 10:34am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

How will the recipient get to spend their "sizeable amount"?

Sell some, from time to time.

Mad_maxx · 01-10-2019 10:45am

Uncle Charlie wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

All the people on this list didn't think Revenue would have anyway of finding out what they were up to. They were all convinced that they were so much smarter than the big eejits in Revenue. They were wrong and so are you.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/press-office/list-of-defaulters/index.aspx

For every one person Revenue catch there is 100 they don't catch.

I know a load of travellers driving 181 and 191 vehicles and who have never worked and don't hide their wealth but the Revenue don't seem interested in going after them.

All these people thought there cash was safe 'in the right place' at home too.

If you put cash deep under ground it would not be found they still haven't found the generals gold he buried in the Dublin mountains back in the 80s.

Unfortunately, there are many ways for these guys to find and get your cash. Unfortunately, the easiest way for them may well be to knock nine kinds of sh1te out of you or your loved one until you decide that the cash isn't that important any more.

If they did that I would just give them the small amounts of cash I had in the house and tell them I've no more.

This is not a sound basis for your future.

It is if you do it right.

Evading tax IS illegal. Denis has a team of very well paid lawyers and accountants to keep him on the right side of the law. You don't.

You seem to think we have a moral obligation to pay extra tax when the government are biggest criminals in state.

If O'Brien and Bono can get away with not paying tax I see no reason why the little man should also try and be as "tax efficient" as possible.

Travellers receive special treatment, most people will find it hard going to avoid declaring a million euro windfall

Growing wealth

Comments