Emigrants, thinking of coming home?

c_man · 25-01-2016 11:46am #1

I wasn't surprised to read recently that "one out of every six Irish-born people currently resides in another country" recently. It seems it's an issue the government have been dodging due to making the unemployment figures etc look good but are now making noise about e.g. Enda saying he wants to make it more attractive for emigrants to return by various tax changes (but then of course that plays well with parents in the upcoming election...). It seems like things are picking up back home slightly anyways.

So emigrants of AH, would you consider moving home? Or are ye well settled in your chosen destination? I gotta say most of my friends who live abroad don't seem like they're in any rush back. I can only think of one who actually wants to in the near future (doesn't want to raise a family in the US) but admits this will mean a substantial pay cut.

I'm not too long out of the country so not thinking of returning just yet, though I've always assumed I will at some stage.

irishmover · 25-01-2016 11:49am

No. I'd have to change my user name if I did.

cowboyBuilder · 25-01-2016 11:50am

Ive been in Spain 10 years, I love going back home for holidays, but could never get used to the gray wet wind and horizontal rain...

So not just yet ...

razorblunt · 25-01-2016 12:03pm

I always assumed I would but still have no concrete plans.
Will probably change when kids come on the scene and I can be confident I'd get a matching wage I'd say.

It's difficult because when I'm home, like the Xmas just gone for example, I hate leaving and I think "that's it I'll set the wheels in motion to come back", but then after a night or two at home here (Edinburgh) I lose the drive and put it on the backburner as I love it here too.

AgileMyth · 25-01-2016 12:10pm

It's 11 on a Monday morning and I'm sitting outside in nothing but a pair of board shorts. I get paid for today. I'm alright where I am!

I would earn more money at home but couldn't do the same job so would have to find something that interests me. Lot of effort when I'm already living well where I am.

Love Ireland but it'll be a holiday destination for the foreseeable future.

Permabear · 25-01-2016 12:23pm

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mariaalice · 25-01-2016 12:32pm

Both my Children are away.

This sum it up some what.

There was a business program on RTE radio on Saturday morning I listen to it as I potter around... any way the businessman ( some serial tec entrepreneur ) being interview said in Ireland you run out of markets very quickly as its a small country.

danburke · 25-01-2016 12:32pm

I left for the U.K. four years ago with full intentions of returning home. However, I doubt i'll ever move home.

Oxford alone probably has more employment opportunities that Dublin. The healthcare over here is amazing. Although that comes at a cost.

Sad to say, but if Ireland were run like England is, I would be on the first boat home.

irishguitarlad · 25-01-2016 12:33pm

Nope not a chance, living here in the south of spain and i love it. Sure Spain has its problems as well but i feel spiritually or something that this is where i belong.

c_man · 25-01-2016 12:42pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Yeah there's definitely a monetary side to it. I mean personally I am earning more than I was in Ireland, I pay less tax than I would back home and get a far better standard of public services for that. For a non-car driver such as myself, the public transport is excellent *shudders at Bus Eireann memories*.

But what about your quality of life/family side of things? I'll take my friend I mentioned in the OP. He's reluctant to raise a family in the US due to the crime rate, education costs and the more general sense of fear/mistrust (his reasoning, not mine). I realise I'm tarring the whole US with that and obviously there's regional variations but in general leaving America aside, for a lot of the things mentioned Ireland ranks pretty good. I can't bring up one of the studies offhand but I've definitely a few international reports recently saying that and about a pretty good quality of life.

I'm in Edinburgh. The locals are often moaning about the weather but tbh, as a West of Ireland raised lad I find it great! I dislike hotter climates in general and the lack of rain here really makes a psychological difference to me!

HalloweenJack · 25-01-2016 1:01pm

Never say never but, looking at the situation I'm in right now, I'll be settling in Spain and I'm quite happy with that.

I don't really get homesick and I've lots of friends and family scattered around the globe so there's very few emotional ties to home for me. Any time I go back, the more certain I am that I made the right decision to leave. Ireland's just not for me.

Help!!!! · 25-01-2016 1:07pm

Spent 19 years in London, moved back almost 2 years ago due to health reasons. Will now retrain & either stay or look to move away again depending on how things look in the future

Tony EH · 25-01-2016 1:11pm

What's there for them to return to?

Unless one is a dyed in the wool Fine Gaeler, happy to parrot the party line, or just simply blind, it's easy to see that the country is still in very bad shape, despite the propaganda.

Emigrants are better off where the are by and large.

catbear · 25-01-2016 1:16pm

Have returned twice but am due to leave again this year. I like Ireland, I feel I can relax here. There's definitely more opportunity abroad but i don't think i could truly fully settle somewhere else, I need a top up of Irish madness every now and again.

Permabear · 25-01-2016 2:19pm

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Buona Fortuna · 25-01-2016 2:26pm

AgileMyth wrote: »

It's 11 on a Monday morning and I'm sitting outside in nothing but a pair of board shorts. I get paid for today. I'm alright where I am!

I would earn more money at home but couldn't do the same job so would have to find something that interests me. Lot of effort when I'm already living well where I am.

Love Ireland but it'll be a holiday destination for the foreseeable future.

Hey we have people who sit outside in their pants here too ya know.

catbear · 25-01-2016 3:21pm

Permabear wrote: »

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I really wanted to like the US when I was there, the money was easy but I found what I saved in lower taxes tended to get handed over again for things like health insurance. I've had to use the healthservices in Ireland and despite all the criticism it attracts it worked perfectly for our family. I actually found enduring the horror story moaners who regurgitate what they hear on Joe Duffy as gospel more stressful than dealing with actual illness.

My aunt who used to be a private hospital manager in the US didn't see any great difference in outcomes. She was actually very critical of the amount of money wasted in US private healthcare covering up bad practice law suits, as long as the premiums covered the liabilities then practices went unchanged. You'd think competition would change that but when all the providers use the same model and aren't forced to move profit into better practices then the dividends keep coming, the appearance of good practice continues. In fact she said that the more people paid in private health insurance the less likely they were to sue, they wouldn't overrule their own investment decisions!

_Brian · 25-01-2016 3:29pm

People returning expecting a decent job will have to be willing to live in the capital or similar major urban centres.
Outside of maybe 5 urban centres there is little or no recovery being felt and employment/wages in these areas haven't improved in the last 5 years.

Then consider the housing crisis facing these major urban areas. It would be attractive to some to come home at all costs, but for many it's just not an attractive option.

Move to the commuter belt counties?? Well, transport costs will soon consume their wages and the majority of the housing available is tat thrown up during our so called "boom".

Then pay high tax on earnings, high health insurance, high housing costs if it's available where you want, school waiting lists.

Why would someone in a stable job where they are want to come back here. Sure, some will want to be back here no matter what, but the 70-100k that I see banded about in the media ?? I can't see it.

Tony EH · 25-01-2016 3:32pm

catbear wrote: »

I really wanted to like the US when I was there, the money was easy but I found what I saved in lower taxes tended to get handed over again for things like health insurance. I've had to use the healthservices in Ireland and despite all the criticism it attracts it worked perfectly for our family. I actually found enduring the horror story moaners who regurgitate what they hear on Joe Duffy as gospel more stressful than dealing with actual illness.

My aunt who used to be a private hospital manager in the US didn't see any great difference in outcomes. She was actually very critical of the amount of money wasted in US private healthcare covering up bad practice law suits, as long as the premiums covered the liabilities then practices went unchanged. You'd think competition would change that but when all the providers use the same model and aren't forced to move profit into better practices then the dividends keep coming, the appearance of good practice continues. In fact she said that the more people paid in private health insurance the less likely they were to sue, they wouldn't overrule their own investment decisions!

Competition is a bit of a myth though. In order to have true competition, you'd need many, many companies competing in the same arena. But, more often than not you really end up with just a few, who end up, basically, homogenising their prices and acting like a cabal.

Once one ups the cost, the rest soon follow suit.

As for our health services, I'll take Ireland's model any day of the week thanks. The US idea is fucking atrocious and that's being kind about it.

While there are certainly issues to be solved here, very real issues, you'd think it was an automatic death sentence going into an Irish hospital, if you were to listen to some.

It's gas though, there's tons of people here that think they're onto a good deal with their private health insurance that get a big, big shock when it comes to actually use it and they find out they're not entitled to half the shit they think they were just because they were paying some overpriced premium for years.

Mahou · 25-01-2016 3:35pm

Kenny mentions bringing 70,000 back. Where are we going to live?

Permabear · 25-01-2016 3:37pm

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ancapailldorcha · 25-01-2016 3:41pm

I can think of about one job in Ireland I'd come home for. Not one role, one specific job at one specific institution. And I'd need an extra push such as an Irish OH who was homesick in the mix as well.

I've become fairly specialised so my chances of coming home are slim at best. There are much better opportunities in the UK and the US though I don't fancy the latter's work culture at all so moving there is unlikely meaning that I will quite likely be spending the rest of my life in the UK.

Shelga · 25-01-2016 4:00pm

I'm in midlands England (China right now!) and thought that if I broke up with my English boyfriend, I'd go home to Ireland.

Since we broke up over Christmas and I have that option if I want, it's not so appealing. I'd only live in Dublin, having explored most other options, and just couldn't afford to live anywhere nice on my own, and I'd be on a good salary.

Coincidentally, a potential job has materialised in a nicer part of England nearer the sea, and I'm now leaning towards that if I get it (fingers crossed!). The fact that I find it more exciting and appealing to start all over again in a place where I know no one, rather than try fit a square peg in a round hole career-wise at home (industry doesn't really exist there) speaks volumes I think.

Also, summers are noticeably nicer in the UK I find!

Tony EH · 25-01-2016 4:11pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Those stats don't tell the whole story though and probably have less to do with the systems in question and more to do with the people using those systems.

By and large Irish people tend to be more shy about visiting doctors and hospitals than Americans do, leading to first diagnoses being later than they should, especially in men.

People working in hospitals here will tell you that the Irish are terrible at presenting themselves and leave things beyond the time that they should go.

c_man · 25-01-2016 4:14pm

Mahou wrote: »

Kenny mentions bringing 70,000 back. Where are we going to live?

"Cry havoc and let slip the developers of the Celtic Tiger" - Enda Kenny :pac:

listermint · 25-01-2016 4:16pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Based solely on how hot the southern states are for a certain Donald Trump. I think il keep my family here thanks very much.

If the US thinks it has a perception issue to the Outside World, Well then i guess they have their own media to thank for that oh and the 50,000 odd gun deaths every year.

And the "we dont call 911" signs on their doors

Permabear · 25-01-2016 4:19pm

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ScumLord · 25-01-2016 4:22pm

I think this is a bit of a waste of time, many people did leave because they had to but I think even if everything was rosy in Ireland people are still going to leave. It's probably for the best to, it keeps our population manageable despite Irish people spitting out children like there's no tomorrow.

All those people that leave give Ireland have been spreading good will and our little island has benefited greatly from it.

Kivaro · 25-01-2016 4:25pm

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One of the big differences in the States is that they allow you keep a substantial amount of the money that you earn. In Ireland, it seems that when you are doing well for yourself, you get hit by all types of punitive taxes not seen in the States. DIRT tax is astronomical, ridiculously high tax rates, a tax on every cheque/check that you write. For Irish politicians it seems that the first answer to a problem seems to be a tax. Recent flooding; tax those who are already paying for insurance. Really?

I'm surprised that there is no real working/middle class political party in Ireland, as they are the ones that bear the brunt of supporting the existing regimes (social and political). I get the impression that the voice of the majority is not being heard ............. or just being ignored.

ancapailldorcha · 25-01-2016 4:32pm

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I envy you this. I wouldn't get a third world standard bedsit for this where I am living now. Green planning laws mean that many cities here are "green garrotted" in that it's illegal to build on the land surrounding them driving house prices up to an astronomical level.

Shelga · 25-01-2016 4:35pm

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$750 a month?? :eek: Damn that failed green card lottery. North Carolina is a lovely part of the US indeed. I think there would be many pros and cons to living in the States, like anywhere, but certainly financially it seems to make more sense if you are a white collar worker.

The cost of living in Bristol, where I'm considering, seems to be about 20% less than Dublin overall, and you get more bang for your buck. Close to the gorgeous Somerset countryside and Bath, my favourite place in the UK.

I've had to catch myself on and realise that the nice dinners and walks and meetups with friends in Dublin are nice precisely because I don't live there. Paying ridiculous VRT to bring my car home, paying astronomical motor tax and stamp duty and health insurance and income tax and the myriad of other costs just probably isn't worth it. Not to mention the issue of going back to paying €2k a year car insurance, having no credit history in the country etc.

ancapailldorcha · 25-01-2016 4:37pm

Shelga wrote: »

The cost of living in Bristol, where I'm considering, seems to be about 20% less than Dublin overall, and you get more bang for your buck. Close to the gorgeous Somerset countryside and Bath, my favourite place in the UK.

I've always wanted to go to Bristol and Bath. Bristol has a cat pub now as well. I thought you were considering moving to Brighton by your post but I didn't want to speculate. In any case, avoid. Avoid like the plague unless you're minted.

CaraMay · 25-01-2016 4:42pm

I get the sense from a lot of emigrants that they think Ireland is worse off got them having left. I'm sure it's hard on their families and it's great they love the lifestyles they've found but things will continue to improve for the people who chose to stay here and put their shoulder to the wheel.

OneArt · 25-01-2016 4:57pm

I moved to Germany nearly five years ago. Going back to Ireland now would be VERY difficult and a real adjustment. As a country I don't dislike it, in fact I enjoy coming for visits, but I just don't think I could live there comfortably. Outside of Limerick, Dublin and possibly Cork, there are no real cities. It's too rural and the state of the infrastructure is appalling.

I also REALLY dislike Irish drinking culture. I love the way the Irish can have the craic, but the actual way nights out are sucks. Everything is closed by 2/3 and in it's always a mad rush to neck down as much as possible before the cut off point. Going to a pub or a bar is an important part of socializing for me, though on weekends I usually don't head out until 11 and am often out til 5 or 6. Germany just has a much more relaxed attitude and no one will bat an eye if you hang out at a bar and not drink.

Overall, I feel there is less security in Ireland, particularly with regards to employment and housing. If I had to move back, I'd have to buy a property (which I REALLY don't want to do without serious consideration) or else I'd find myself moving regularly at my landlord's whim (again in Germany, you can't be kicked out of your apartment unless the landlord wants to use it for his own purposes).

So there are a HEAP of factors stopping me from coming back, not to mention the weather. Sure, jobs and the economy are on the rise but quality of life is also important and compared even to the UK, in Ireland it is sorely lacking.

_Brian · 25-01-2016 5:03pm

After you've been heavily taxed Ireland is an expensive place to live, and that's with interest rated at all time lows.
Give it maybe 5 years and interest rates have increased by maybe 5-8% and it will be crippling to have a mortgage here, many mortgages just getting bye now will become unsustainable, que a whole new raft of troubled mortgages and the hurt that goes with that.

Permabear · 25-01-2016 5:33pm

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Tuesday_Girl · 25-01-2016 5:47pm

I moved back recently after 16 years away, a few other people I know have also moved back in the last 18 months. I think it's an age thing, as people get older and start to have families many move back to be nearer to family and have a wish to raise their children in Ireland.

Special Circumstances · 25-01-2016 6:00pm

Tuesday_Girl wrote: »

I moved back recently after 16 years away, a few other people I know have also moved back in the last 18 months. I think it's an age thing, as people get older and start to have families many move back to be nearer to family and have a wish to raise their children in Ireland.

What have you found to be the biggest hurdles or was it all plain sailing? Any "wtf is this some kinda tax on returning emigrants" or "how the hell do people pay so much for so little these days" type stuff?

rainbow kirby · 25-01-2016 6:14pm

Have been in London since 2013, husband is here since 2010 and our first kid will be born here in March. Haven't a clue what we'll do long-term tbh. I'm pretty happy here for the moment but our priorities may change in the future. Job opportunities for both of us are very good here but the cost of living is very high.

FTA69 · 25-01-2016 6:31pm

Based in London now since my late teens bar a three year stint at home in order to attend university which transpired to be the biggest waste of time ever but there you go. Moved back to London with an Irish girl, split up with her, landed a new career and am firmly based here as my job is not transferable to Ireland for the time being. I can envision myself returning to Ireland in my mid-50s all things considered. My partner is from the Caribbean though so that may well change.

I'm looking to buy my own home this year which will mitigate much of the rental costs which is a joke in London by this stage, all in all I'm very content here.

catbear · 25-01-2016 7:38pm

Permabear wrote: »

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But is there the same access to diagnosis between Ireland and the US. From my experience I've seen US colleagues remortgage for vital medical treatment that I've seen provided on the Irish public system free.

And then there's the gun crime which was pretty horrific when I was in New York in the late 80s, I believe its cleaned up a lot but going home at night to watch the news about another stray bullet death on a street that I use daily made me feel less free in the home of the brave. (targeted shootings tended not to make the news unless the mob or westies were involved, the more culourful executions like a sicilian necktie dumped in the east river got more millage).

osarusan · 25-01-2016 7:47pm

Moved home last year, but I know that there's a high chance we'll be off to Japan (or somewhere else) again in 3 or 4 years. We'd prefer to stay but it all depends on job availability and salary.

A lot of stuff is just a lot easier and less stressful here, but the cost of living is farcical - Limerick rents are more expensive than the same size apartment in Tokyo!

ArnoldJRimmer · 25-01-2016 8:07pm

At this moment and time, I cant see myself ever returning from the US, but as someone mentioned above, with age priorities change.

Pro's of living in the US vs Ireland:
- Weather. Its freezing here at the moment, worse last week when I was outside in -30 degrees celcius. But there will be 4-5 months of fantastic weather later on in the summer where I can get up at 5am and have a long cycle before work. And sit out in beer gardens all evening
- Lower rate of taxes and greater job opportunities
- More value for money for renting an apartment. My rent isn't cheap, but its a large apartment and the building has great facilities for the tenants. Would still only get a shoe box for the same price in Dublin

Con's:
- Astronomical cost of healthcare. Luckily, I've only had minor issues to date, but even with insurance, its cost a relative fortune
- Missing family and friends. Parents aren't getting any younger and there have been a load of nieces and nephews born in the last few years. Skype does this make a lot easier though
- Not the place to be if a person falls on hard times. There is pretty much no safety net. There also seems to be very little sympathy from the locals over homeless people and poverty. They have an ingrained attitude that the only reason people are homeless or poor is because they're lazy. And this is exactly what people like Trump capitalise on.

Overall, I love it here though, and will be around for the foreseeable future

etoughguy · 25-01-2016 8:51pm

They shouldn't be allowed back into the country sure all they do it talk about Oz, US, Timbukthree or wherever they were and how great things were there and how ****e and expensive things are here
Ban the lot of em I say!

ancapailldorcha · 25-01-2016 8:59pm

etoughguy wrote: »

They shouldn't be allowed back into the country sure all they do it talk about Oz, US, Timbukthree or wherever they were and how great things were there and how ****e and expensive things are here
Ban the lot of em I say!

Ah, I was wondering when good aul begrudgery would turn up. Damn anyone who dares to better themselves or achieve something. How dare they. In fact, they should stay abroad with their experience, resources and networks. It's not like Ireland's economy needs a boost or anything. By the way, what would you have had us do? Draw the dole? I left my crappy retail job for someone else to pursue a career and now I'm collaborating with researchers from one of the world's top universities. But yeah, naughty, ungrateful me. I should have stayed working 9-5 Monday to Friday and partying in the local nightclub at the weekends.

etoughguy · 25-01-2016 9:02pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Ah, I was wondering when good aul begrudgery would turn up. Damn anyone who dares to better themselves or achieve something. How dare they. In fact, they should stay abroad with their experience, resources and networks. It's not like Ireland's economy needs a boost or anything. By the way, what would you have had us do? Draw the dole? I left my crappy retail job for someone else to pursue a career and now I'm collaborating with researchers from one of the world's top universities. But yeah, naughty, ungrateful me. I should have stayed working 9-5 Monday to Friday and partying in the local nightclub at the weekends.

The exclamation mark after my last comment indicates its a joke - ya know that humour stuff thingy?

ancapailldorcha · 25-01-2016 9:05pm

etoughguy wrote: »

The exclamation mark after my last comment indicates its a joke - ya know that humour stuff thingy?

I would have opted for smileys in that case. Exclamation marks are used to emphasis feelings or to add volume, not humour.

etoughguy · 25-01-2016 9:06pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I would have opted for smileys in that case. Exclamation marks are used to emphasis feelings or to add volume, not humour.

noted, cheers

catbear · 25-01-2016 9:12pm

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

- Not the place to be if a person falls on hard times. There is pretty much no safety net. There also seems to be very little sympathy from the locals over homeless people and poverty. They have an ingrained attitude that the only reason people are homeless or poor is because they're lazy. And this is exactly what people like Trump capitalise on.

That really got me, the downside to the meritocracy is intolerance for failure. I guess it keeps the system primed but I'd rather social welfare capitalism of Europe to the pure jungle capitalism of the US.
From having worked in that culture I wasn't surprised when I read about the rising suicide rate amongst older white americans.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/health/death-rates-rising-for-middle-aged-white-americans-study-finds.html?_r=0
I'd rather grow old gracefully.

Tony EH · 25-01-2016 9:49pm

There's no such thing as a meritocracy and America CERTAINLY doesn't qualify that's for damn sure.

When you have a state whereby money can buy anything, the notion of merit goes out the window.

America, for all its good sides, is a pretty fucked up society and one that can be as vicious as it is ignorant. While in some comparisons, it's quite better than other nations, in others it falls way behind. A country of ridiculous extremes, that can turn into an uncaring monster with the twist of mere fate.

Looking at what some of my family have and are going through over there, I'm very glad I made the choice to stay in Ireland, despite our own problems here.

Permabear · 25-01-2016 10:15pm

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Emigrants, thinking of coming home?

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