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Software Engineer Vs Software Developer

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  • 24-07-2020 12:07pm
    #1
    the-island-man
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭


    Hi,

    I've been working as a Software Engineer and a Software Developer for over 10 years now. I've held both the title of Software Engineer and Software Developer.

    I know the difference is meant to be that a Software Engineer is more solutions and design focused whereas a Developer spends most of the time developing code.

    My question is has anyone ever noticed any difference in Ireland?

    I see the terms in Ireland as interchangeable and it doesn't matter, you'll be expected to do whatever the company requires of you even if it is neither Software Development or Software Engineering!


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    #2
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,426 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    I'm down as a software engineer on my contract but to be honest I'd struggle to write a line of C without Google (that said I've written some useful programs). More general purpose Electronic/Computer/Test/System. The term (and quite a few others!) is meaningless IMO without talking about what you do day to day.


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    #3
    Royale with Cheese
    Registered Users Posts: 9,014 ✭✭✭Royale with Cheese


    I always thought software engineer was a term somebody made up to make their job sound more fancy that just caught on. I'd never refer to myself as an engineer, always a developer. After 10 years you'll be expected to be able to come up with your own design/solutions regardless of your job title.


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    #4
    Cordell
    Registered Users Posts: 5,833 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Electrical engineer, Electronics engineer, Software engineer, nothing wrong with the term engineer, it's not there to sound cool, it actually describes the role.


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    #5
    shootermacg
    Registered Users Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    My kids call me a computer scientist because my degree was computer science :)

    I would always refer to myself as a developer instead of an engineer, although the two terms are generally used interchangeably in most companies.

    I think there is certainly a degree of engineering when you become senior. You'd generally have to pick all the layers, structures etc yourself (although it could be argued that is the Architect).


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    #6
    antimatterx
    Registered Users Posts: 2,679 ✭✭✭antimatterx


    It doesn't really matter in my opinion, It's just a job title.

    In previous company, everyone was a software engineer. You were just a backend engineer, or a frontend engineer.


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    #7
    14ned
    Registered Users Posts: 768 ✭✭✭14ned


    The title "engineer" is protected in most European countries, and in some US states. Only those with chartered engineer status can call themselves an engineer in those countries and states.

    In Ireland we have no such tradition. Anyone can call themselves an engineer. So as you correctly observe, its meaning is interchangeable here.


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    #8
    Cordell
    Registered Users Posts: 5,833 ✭✭✭Cordell


    You can't call yourself an engineer just like that, this is a title attached to your qualifications that you can only get after completing engineering studies. You may have a position that has engineer in the title, from software engineer to the engineer that service the boiler, but that's a different matter.


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    #9
    the-island-man
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭the-island-man


    14ned wrote: »
    The title "engineer" is protected in most European countries, and in some US states. Only those with chartered engineer status can call themselves an engineer in those countries and states.

    In Ireland we have no such tradition. Anyone can call themselves an engineer. So as you correctly observe, its meaning is interchangeable here.

    My undergraduate was in Electronic Engineering. I was a member of Engineers Ireland for a time but the institution seems very focused on Civil, Mechanical and BioMed Engineering. Seemed a bit pointless for my role.


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    #10
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,426 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    the-island-man wrote: »
    My undergraduate was in Electronic Engineering. I was a member of Engineers Ireland for a time but the institution seems very focused on Civil, Mechanical and BioMed Engineering. Seemed a bit pointless for my role.
    Anyone I know who was bothered with it just signed up any year they were changing jobs just to have it on the CV, then let it lapse.


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    #11
    S.M.B.
    Registered Users Posts: 9,358 ✭✭✭S.M.B.


    You can't call yourself an engineer if you don't have a qualification but you can be hired in a position referred to as an engineer?

    So I legally have to say "I work in a software engineering role" as opposed to "I'm a software engineer"?

    Luckily I do always say I'm a developer even do in my contract I'm an engineer.


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    #12
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,032 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    14ned wrote: »
    The title "engineer" is protected in most European countries, and in some US states. Only those with chartered engineer status can call themselves an engineer in those countries and states.

    Which countries exactly? I know a few where very specific engineering titles are protected, but none with the Generic term.


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    #13
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,032 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    The only time it ever made any difference for me was one time when the Swiss company I worked for took on apprentice software engineers and I needed to have the appropriate qualifications to act as the "Master Teacher" to supervise them. And the recognised qualifications out of the British Isles as set out in Swiss law at the time - membership of the BCS or ICS (which I happed to have).

    That was thirty years ago and that was the only time every it was a critical issue. So I would not get too excited about it.


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    #14
    ronivek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,916 ✭✭✭ronivek


    The way the titles are used in the vast majority of cases seem to be fairly arbitrary.

    In academia 'Software Engineering' would in general refer to the processes employed as part of developing software; and how we would measure effectiveness or why we might prefer one process over another given a certain set of constraints or circumstances. Sometimes this also includes things such as choice of programming or system design paradigm for a given project.

    In industry the vast majority of this work is undertaken by a very small subset of employees: such as Architects, Distinguished Engineers/Developers, Vice Presidents, and senior Principal Engineers/Developers. A lot of the management processes would be in the wheelhouses of the senior Product and Program Management roles.

    An individual contributor; i.e. your standard Software Engineer or Software Developer; will generally be following the guidelines and conventions already established by the company and team. So you'll still be engaging in some 'Software Engineering' practices but generally only in the manner and of the type prescribed by your seniors.

    'Software Engineering' and Software Development as a discipline is still quite young; and it is changing very rapidly. There are countless groups around who purport to represent particular types of 'Software Engineer' and who are lobbying for certain types of recognition and regulation; whether this takes off or not is anyone's guess.

    For now though I see virtually no difference in practical terms between jobs with the title Software Engineer and jobs with the title Software Developer.


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    #15
    ronivek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,916 ✭✭✭ronivek


    Royale with Cheese wrote: »
    I always thought software engineer was a term somebody made up to make their job sound more fancy that just caught on. I'd never refer to myself as an engineer, always a developer. After 10 years you'll be expected to be able to come up with your own design/solutions regardless of your job title.

    If everyone who could write a bit of code was a Software Developer; how would you ever know someone was likely to be capable of fulfilling a certain role?

    The whole point of viewing it as a professional discipline with membership of a professional body was to try and establish a baseline set of capabilities and knowledge which everyone claiming to be a 'Software Engineer' should have.

    It wasn't about 'trying to make their job sound more fancy'.


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    #16
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,671 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    For me I'd prefer title of Engineer. Seems more professional and allows me to channel my inner Dilbert.


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    #17
    Royale with Cheese
    Registered Users Posts: 9,014 ✭✭✭Royale with Cheese


    ronivek wrote: »
    If everyone who could write a bit of code was a Software Developer; how would you ever know someone was likely to be capable of fulfilling a certain role?

    You interview them, and even then when you've picked someone you hope and pray they'll turn out how you want. You've no idea what someone will actually be like until you have them on site for a period of time.

    My very first job out of college was a junior software "engineer", I hadn't a fúcking notion what I was doing. To be honest I'm gobsmacked anybody working in the industry would assign that much weight to a job title.


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    #18
    ronivek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,916 ✭✭✭ronivek


    Royale with Cheese wrote: »
    You interview them, and even then when you've picked someone you hope and pray they'll turn out how you want. You've no idea what someone will actually be like until you have them on site for a period of time.

    You kinda conveniently left out and/or didn't read the next part of my post: that large parts of the Software Engineering field in research and academia was an attempt to standardise and professionalise the discipline.

    For example if you advertised for a 'Software Engineer' you would be looking for a set of skills S1; if you advertised for a 'Research Software Engineer' you would be looking for a different set S2 and so on. This would be more or less a constant no matter what company or country you were based; and to a certain extent could be verified by your membership in the relevant professional body.

    Software has to a large extent evaded and such classifications for various reasons: and now we're at a point where even the classic requirement of a Computer Science or Mathematics degree is falling by the wayside in favour of demonstrable experience via portfolios and so on.

    So we have this situation now where anyone who can write a bit of code can consider themselves a Software Engineer; and any company who wants a bit of code written can advertise for a Software Engineer and pay them anywhere from literal peanuts over minimum wage to crazy salaried money and perks that even a Senior Private Hospital Consultant might baulk at.

    On the topic of interviews: they are a very poor predictor of job performance. In some cases technical interviews can be beneficial; but they are also very easy to prepare for.


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    #19
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,032 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Software has to a large extent evaded and such classifications for various reasons: and now we're at a point where even the classic requirement of a Computer Science or Mathematics degree is falling by the wayside in favour of demonstrable experience via portfolios and so on.

    We’ve always been there! Computer science and software development are two different things. Software development is an art practice by many and probably represents say 25 or 30 percent of what most developers bring to the table. The truth is that software doesn’t have to particularly good, it just has to be good enough. Far more important is the developer’s understanding of the business and their ability to produce a workable solution.


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    #20
    ronivek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,916 ✭✭✭ronivek


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    We’ve always been there! Computer science and software development are two different things. Software development is an art practice by many and probably represents say 25 or 30 percent of what most developers bring to the table. The truth is that software doesn’t have to particularly good, it just has to be good enough. Far more important is the developer’s understanding of the business and their ability to produce a workable solution.

    Well as with many aspects of software development you'll probably find a bunch of different opinions on the things you've stated. Which is part of what makes it interesting I suppose! I would say that for pretty much all your points my response would be "Well... it depends".

    I would look at many who work in modern software development as being something akin to a plumber or other such tradespeople:
    • They use tools and techniques designed, developed, and tested by others.
    • They figure out the best way to apply these tools and techniques to their particular problem domain; but generally according to someone else's plan.
    • They vary substantially in ability and area of expertise.
    • They tend to work in the context of a managed project which requires working as part of a team with other tradespeople.
    • They very rarely design a tool or technique which would gain traction or use outside of their own team or organisation.
    • They very rarely require any depth of knowledge in science or mathematics; just superficial enough to get by.

    There are of course plenty of exceptions; and it will vary based on your industry and domain; but I feel like that describes the majority of those who actually engage in development (in industry) day to day.


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    #21
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,032 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    ronivek wrote: »
    Well as with many aspects of software development you'll probably find a bunch of different opinions on the things you've stated. Which is part of what makes it interesting I suppose! I would say that for pretty much all your points my response would be "Well... it depends".

    I would look at many who work in modern software development as being something akin to a plumber or other such tradespeople:
    • They use tools and techniques designed, developed, and tested by others.
    • They figure out the best way to apply these tools and techniques to their particular problem domain; but generally according to someone else's plan.
    • They vary substantially in ability and area of expertise.
    • They tend to work in the context of a managed project which requires working as part of a team with other tradespeople.
    • They very rarely design a tool or technique which would gain traction or use outside of their own team or organisation.
    • They very rarely require any depth of knowledge in science or mathematics; just superficial enough to get by.

    There are of course plenty of exceptions; and it will vary based on your industry and domain; but I feel like that describes the majority of those who actually engage in development (in industry) day to day.

    I think it is typical of the old question in Economics 101, is economics a science or an art?

    The answer is that it's an art which makes uses of certain scientific techniques - software development is the same.


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    #22
    shootermacg
    Registered Users Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    I think it is typical of the old question in Economics 101, is economics a science or an art?

    The answer is that it's an art which makes uses of certain scientific techniques - software development is the same.

    There's plenty of science in computer science. But even in a science like chemistry, there are plenty of guys that do nothing too complicated and then there are guys that do very complex work.

    Computer science is a hugely changing industry and it could be argued that to maintain their career, a developer has a full time job learning the latest tech, and, that tech changes at a greater pace than in pretty much any other industry. I myself work very closely with actuaries and they expect a certain degree of aptitude. A lot of developers may also have more than their fair share business specific knowledge.

    I myself rarely work with clearly defined specs, but I make up for it with my domain knowledge of the industry that I find myself in at the time. A lot of the "business" see the IT department as a cost, this is plain wrong and you'd be surprised at how much the developer knows about the domain after a year or two.


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    #23
    shootermacg
    Registered Users Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    When i was working my way through Uni I got a job with a crowd drilling holes on building sites. We were passing a circle of guys, all holding spray cans. The guy I was with, grabbed one of the spray can's off one of the guys, handed it to me and said "Now bud, you're an engineer too!"


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    #24
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,032 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    shootermacg wrote: »
    There's plenty of science in computer science.

    I myself work very closely with actuaries and they expect a certain degree of aptitude. A lot of developers may also have more than their fair share business specific knowledge.

    That was a view I expressed a while back... most roles require a good knowledge of the problem domain
    a developer has a full time job learning the latest tech

    That one I would not be so sure of, right now the best paid guys I know program in Turbo Pascal (not even Delphi), Cobol and my wife uses a proprietary language on mainframe system that is no longer supported by the vendor (IBM). My guess is that companies will need to replace the people long before the systems reach sunset.

    The side effect of all the outsourcing and the concentration of cost have resulted in a lack of innovation and progression in IT. Back in the 90s and early 00s, we wrote an awful lot of banking software here in Switzerland, it was the good times when they used to pay us €150 - €200 an hour. But we never got to do the upgrades etc.... the system were outsourced and have just been run into the ground. I recently got a retainer contract to cover a few system written by "some guy back in the 90s" on which they no longer had the documentation... after looking at the code, I realised "the guy in the 90s" was me!!!! And not alone that but I still had a copy of the documentation - as I explained, it was not a case of loosing the documentation, it was a case of failing to pay for it ;-)

    At some point all of this will have to be replaced, the knowledge has been lost and the pain will be great.... an opportunity for future developers.


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    #25
    shootermacg
    Registered Users Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    That one I would not be so sure of, right now the best paid guys I know program in Turbo Pascal (not even Delphi), Cobol and my wife uses a proprietary language on mainframe system that is no longer supported by the vendor (IBM). My guess is that companies will need to replace the people long before the systems reach sunset.

    The side effect of all the outsourcing and the concentration of cost have resulted in a lack of innovation and progression in IT. Back in the 90s and early 00s, we wrote an awful lot of banking software here in Switzerland, it was the good times when they used to pay us €150 - €200 an hour. But we never got to do the upgrades etc.... the system were outsourced and have just been run into the ground. I recently got a retainer contract to cover a few system written by "some guy back in the 90s" on which they no longer had the documentation... after looking at the code, I realised "the guy in the 90s" was me!!!! And not alone that but I still had a copy of the documentation - as I explained, it was not a case of loosing the documentation, it was a case of failing to pay for it ;-)

    At some point all of this will have to be replaced, the knowledge has been lost and the pain will be great.... an opportunity for future developers.

    I think you answered this yourself. Sure there will be legacy apps that grew old because the company didn't allocate planning to upgrade or maintain the code base. But writing old code is your job, it has a finite lifespan and you might be better served being involved a job converting the old to the new. This strategy would keep you current, while also making nice money from your old skills.

    Paying someone a ransom to come in and code patches into a code-base written in a dead, unsupported language is always a bonkers strategy to me, and stinks of bad management by the people with the purse strings.

    It is also up to the seniors in the IT department to highlight the advantages of regular code maintenance. Although I've worked in plenty of places where it was never highlighted or, if it was, it was ignored.

    The old code base chickens always come home to roost though.


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    #26
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users Posts: 17,508 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    I studied computer engineering and have a BEng. My previous job title was software engineer and current one is web developer. Am I free to call myself whatever I want, wherever I am?


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    #27
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Interchangeable really, but one previous company I worked at had a promotional step from "developer" to "engineer".

    My ex (chartered civil engineer) had a real bee in his bonnet about people who don't have a chartership step calling themselves "engineer" though...


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    #28
    Colonel Panic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭Colonel Panic


    My degree is in Engineering rather that Computer Science but I'd still call myself a software developer if someone asks me what I do.

    That said, my job title ends with "Engineer"!


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    #29
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    the recognised qualifications out of the British Isles as set out in Swiss law at the time - membership of the BCS or ICS (which I happed to have).

    Did the BCS professional membership exams in the early 90s myself via Kevin Street. I didn't pursue it further, but with the MBCS you could then apply for CEng and get your charter. As for titles I go with code monkey :)


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    #30
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,635 ✭✭✭dotsman


    Royale with Cheese wrote: »
    I always thought software engineer was a term somebody made up to make their job sound more fancy that just caught on. I'd never refer to myself as an engineer, always a developer. After 10 years you'll be expected to be able to come up with your own design/solutions regardless of your job title.

    I think Mags would disagree with you on that :D

    For me, "Software Developer" is the recent makey-uppy word that seems to have replaced "programmer" which sounded stuffy and old-school.


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    #31
    rock22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,547 ✭✭✭rock22


    Here is an interesting post from a Professor at US university


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