Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page

CeannRua · 02-08-2015 7:45am

annalynskey wrote: »

Next to the marriage of my Great Great aunt Mary Lynch /Lynskey and a james Geraghty
( Kilmore erris Nov 3rd 1863) it says 4 et 4 .Would that make them first or second cousins?
Mary's father was Philip Lynch / Lynskey and James's mother was Bridget Lynch . Or could they be related in a different way? Mary and James left Binghamstown nr Belmullet mayo for Rush Indiana about 1864/65.

They're probably first cousins but there must be something else. They're not double first cousins? I don't know if the double surname is significant?

Some impediments might be due to affinity rather than consanguinity. The only way to check is to extend your research.

annalynskey · 02-08-2015 9:52am

thanks for the reply, could you explain what you mean by affinity ? Thanks again

P. Breathnach · 02-08-2015 10:22am

Affinity is a non-blood family connection. For example, the connection between in-laws. In RC law, a man may not marry his brother's widow without a dispensation.

KildareFan · 02-08-2015 6:11pm

See rules on prohibited relationships in Marriage at http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/getting_married/legal_prerequisites_for_marriage.html
Prohibited degrees of relationship

Prohibitions apply to marriage between certain people related by blood or marriage. A couple who fall within the prohibited degrees of relationship cannot marry. These prohibitions are based on:

consanguinity – blood relationship including half blood (half blood means having one parent in common, for example a half-brother)
affinity – relationship by marriage

The prohibited degrees apply to a wide range of family relationships and include marital and non-marital offspring.

An adopted child is within the prohibited degrees in relation to its natural family and adoptive parents. However, it would appear an adopted child can marry the child of his/her adoptive parents.

The Deceased Wife’s Sister Act 1907 and the Deceased Husband’s Widow’s Marriage Act 1921 allow a man to marry his deceased wife’s sister and a woman to marry her deceased husband’s brother. Following a High Court decision in October 2006, if a marriage ends due to a divorce rather than a death the prohibition on marrying no longer applies.

There is no legal restriction on the marriage of first cousins.

montgo · 03-08-2015 9:24am

Can anyone help with sponsors names on the last entry P. 74, 24 Oct 1870.

Ellen of David Bourke & Honora(ia) Meagher, sps John ?? & Mary ??

Hermy · 03-08-2015 10:00am

Mary might be Bourke or (o)Rorke.

Not sure about John - the first letter has me.
Have you tried going through the surnames for that area on the Census to get suggestions?

montgo · 03-08-2015 10:10am

Yes, might be Bourke. Yes the first letter has me stumped as well.

If it were a P then it could be Purcell at a push:) -

Hermy · 03-08-2015 10:13am

Hermy wrote: »

Have you tried going through the surnames for that area on the Census to get suggestions?

I have and it hasn't helped!:o

KildareFan · 03-08-2015 10:14am

I think John's surname starts with an S... it looks something like Samson or Sammon; Mary's name possibly starts with BR.... possibly Brain?

montgo · 03-08-2015 10:36am

Hermy wrote: »

I have and it hasn't helped!:o

Thanks Hermy, I also look at the Griffiths records and no obvious possibility there either.

Mary's name looks more O'R to me now so maybe O'Rourke or as Kildare suggests Br.

Mollymoo19 · 03-08-2015 4:29pm

montgo wrote: »

Can anyone help with sponsors names on the last entry P. 74, 24 Oct 1870.

Ellen of David Bourke & Honora(ia) Meagher, sps John ?? & Mary ??

or, perhaps John's surname starts with a G, as in Gorman.

montgo · 03-08-2015 10:34pm

It turns out that Roots have the sponsors as John Sampson & Mary Ahern!

wexflyer · 11-08-2015 6:11pm

I am having difficulty reading the townland placename associated with the 18th May 1841 baptism entry for Anne Walsh on the following page
registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634014#page/5/mode/1up
I can read just about every other word on the page, except the one of critical interest! I don't think the initial letter is an "a", as there appears to be a downstroke. It is stated to be a townland in the parish of Mayglass/Maglass, Ferns, but the list of town lands for Mayglass does not show any obvious candidates.
Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance

Hermy · 11-08-2015 7:55pm

I'm struggling to see an entry for May 18th for Walsh using the link provided.
Can you say which line it is?

shanew · 11-08-2015 8:25pm

I believe it's the entry squashed between two lines - I can see what looks a bit like Mayglass, but not much on the other

shanew · 11-08-2015 8:33pm

a blow up of that part of the entry.. comparing to the entry above, it looks like the top word might start with a g.. which touches off the placename below, c.f. also the g in Margaret to the left

wexflyer · 11-08-2015 9:09pm

Hermy wrote: »

I'm struggling to see an entry for May 18th for Walsh using the link provided.
Can you say which line it is?

It is the interpolated entry, 4th from the bottom left corner. Shanew has posted a screen copy of the relevant entry (thanks).

wexflyer · 11-08-2015 9:14pm

shanew wrote: »

I believe it's the entry squashed between two lines - I can see what looks a bit like Mayglass, but not much on the other
]

Yes, that is the correct entry. The register consistently gives the address as "townland xyz, civil parish abc". So this the entry I am after is ???, Mayglass. The townland name does seem to start with a "g" - but I find it hard to match with any of the known Mayglass townlands.

Jellybaby1 · 11-08-2015 9:32pm

shanew wrote: »

I believe it's the entry squashed between two lines - I can see what looks a bit like Mayglass, but not much on the other

I'm probably way off, but I'm going to take a stab at 'Arklow'. Doubt if anyone would agree though.

CeannRua · 11-08-2015 9:55pm

The entry for 22 August says Griddle. Looks like same word in entry that is being questioned.

wexflyer · 11-08-2015 10:56pm

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I'm probably way off, but I'm going to take a stab at 'Arklow'. Doubt if anyone would agree though.

I am afraid that the "k" that makes it look like "Arklow" is an artificial artifact - it is caused by this word - whatever to is - running into the downstroke of the letter "g" in "Maglass" on the line above. So, I don't think it is Arklow.

shanew · 12-08-2015 12:03am

second letter looks like an r to me, and the third letter looks small - with no ascender, descender, or obvious loop. For the rest..there seem to be two letters with ascender, and probably two or three vowels

wexflyer · 16-08-2015 11:37pm

CeannRua wrote: »

The entry for 22 August says Griddle. Looks like same word in entry that is being questioned.

I think we have a winner! Looking through the register, "Griddle" very clearly appears as the address on multiple entries, some up to 20 years later. Trouble is, there is no townland by the name of "Griddle" in either the Griffith's or tythe valuations. Nor is it a recorded townland name anywhere else in Wexford either. Another mystery! (One I could do without).

CeannRua · 18-08-2015 7:30am

wexflyer wrote: »

I think we have a winner! Looking through the register, "Griddle" very clearly appears as the address on multiple entries, some 20 years later. Trouble is, there is no townland by the name of "Griddle" in either the Griffith's or tythe valuations. Nor is it a recorded townland name anywhere else in Wexford either. Another mystery! (One I could do without).

What you could try is to find some entries in the parish registers for people with unusual names for dates close to Griffith's or the tithe applotments, and then see if you can find them there. The latter two should give 'official' townland names (although Griffith's is better than the tithes for this). I've seen 'unofficial' place names apply to an area that falls within more than one official townland.

wexflyer · 18-08-2015 8:56pm

CeannRua wrote: »

What you could try is to find some entries in the parish registers for people with unusual names for dates close to Griffith's or the tithe applotments, and then see if you can find them there. The latter two should give 'official' townland names (although Griffith's is better than the tithes for this). I've seen 'unofficial' place names apply to an area that falls within more than one official townland.

Excellent suggestion - I had not thought of that.

VirginiaB · 18-08-2015 9:17pm

I'd be grateful for any help reading the name of the baby being baptized in the following record. As a new member, I can't post a link or attachment yet so I'm sorry for just supplying the information, if anyone has time to take a look at the record.

Parish--Castletownroche

County--Cork

Microfilm--Baptism records 1811-1834

Page--140

Entry number--38

Parents (written very lightly)--Patrick Quinlan and Margaret Gorman (my gt gt grandparents)

Date of baptism--21 February 1832

Baby's name--?????

Address--Bally???

Sponsors--Daniel? Mulcahy and Mary Regan?

Thanks for any help at all, especially the baby's name.

pinkypinky · 18-08-2015 10:19pm

Welcome, VirginiaB.

Here's the link.

http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632864#page/140/mode/1up

I think the name is Frances.

Agree on Daniel - likely abbreviated.

Hermy · 18-08-2015 10:21pm

Would the baby be named Frances?

pinkypinky · 18-08-2015 10:23pm

Snap, Hermy - I was editing my post while you posted.

CeannRua · 18-08-2015 10:24pm

VirginiaB wrote: »

I'd be grateful for any help reading the name of the baby being baptized in the following record. As a new member, I can't post a link or attachment yet so I'm sorry for just supplying the information, if anyone has time to take a look at the record.

Parish--Castletownroche

County--Cork

Microfilm--Baptism records 1811-1834

Page--140

Entry number--38

Parents (written very lightly)--Patrick Quinlan and Margaret Gorman (my gt gt grandparents)

Date of baptism--21 February 1832

Baby's name--?????

Address--Bally???

Sponsors--Daniel? Mulcahy and Mary Regan?

Thanks for any help at all, especially the baby's name.

The baby's name might be Frances (female). Would this work? Sponsors look right. For the townland name, do you have another record of these people with an address or know which civil parishes are in Castletownroche RC parish?

VirginiaB · 18-08-2015 11:00pm

Thanks so much to all for the replies. The Quinlan family lived in the townland of Clifford in the civil parish of Bridgetown, PLU of Fermoy, Co. Cork. This baby would be the first in the marriage and was previously unknown to me tho I suspected there would be a birth within the year after the May 1831 marriage of parents Patrick Quinlan and Margaret Gorman.

I have the marriage record and baptisms of five other children born to them here. Place names given are Clifford or Inches which I have been told are the same place. The Irish name is said to be Ballinraha. Note, not Ballynaraha in/near Glanworth. I was told that by someone who lived there for some years and it's given as a possibility elsewhere.

I thought it looked like Frances/is or Thomas. But there is a later baby Thomas to the same parents. Did the first one die and they re-used the name, as was done? The only thing about Frances is that it isn't in this family. But that means nothing, I suppose. I don't have enough people of that generation to compare. Thomas is frequent among the Gormans, the mother's family.

I wonder how common Frances/is was in that parish with other families? Or is Co. Cork in the 1830s?

Welcome to all ideas and thanks again, Virginia

CeannRua · 18-08-2015 11:28pm

Just had another look at the baby's name and am beginning to think I can see the faint outline of an ascender on the second letter. It could be Thomas. Perhaps someone can say how RootsIreland has transcribed the name.

Some of the place name has obviously been chopped but if there was a 'h' there for Ballinraha it seems like it should be visible, and all the letters that are visible look lower than this. Not sure what you mean by the Irish name being Ballinraha. If you mean it's the Irish language, it's not. Ballinraha is an English language spelling.

VirginiaB · 19-08-2015 12:43am

I am sorry for my mistake about the Irish language reference.

I found the parents' marriage and baptisms of five children on RootsIreland five years ago. This particular baptism wasn't there as far as I could see at the time. I just found it when the images came online and I was searching the parents' names.

wexflyer · 19-08-2015 12:44am

CeannRua wrote: »

What you could try is to find some entries in the parish registers for people with unusual names for dates close to Griffith's or the tithe applotments, and then see if you can find them there. The latter two should give 'official' townland names (although Griffith's is better than the tithes for this). I've seen 'unofficial' place names apply to an area that falls within more than one official townland.

I did a few cross-checks, based on this suggestion, and it appears that the location variously given as Griddle/Gridle/Grid in the Ballymore/Mayglass parish registers corresponds to Randalstown, Co. Wexford, a townland just south of Mayglass.
I guess this should not be a surprise to me, as I already knew that the Walsh family of interest lived in Randalstown in 1852/53 (Griffith's Valuation), and 1860s (civil registration records).

The name Griddle/Grid may come from the layout of the farm strips there at one time. The grid arrangement changed over time and disappeared (using various historical layers on the wonderful AskIreland site).

wexflyer · 19-08-2015 12:53am

VirginiaB wrote: »

Thanks for any help at all, especially the baby's name.

My vote is very strongly for Thomas. I can sew why people see Frances, but the letters at the end of name are clear - the are "..omas" which is inconsistent with Frances. The initial letter is a standard "T", it is only the "h" which is faint.

montgo · 19-08-2015 2:44am

Help with the last entry on right side here dated 21 Feb 1830

=====

Patrick Blackburn, Matthew Blackburn, John ??
The aforesaid were dispensated(?) with by (?)
3rd & 3rd consanguinity by the most
Revd. Doctor Laffan.

There appears to be a third witness John something or other. Is the rest correct?

wexflyer · 19-08-2015 3:17am

montgo wrote: »

Help with the last entry on right side here dated 21 Feb 1830

=====

Patrick Blackburn, Matthew Blackburn, John ??
The aforesaid were dispensated(?) with by (?)
3rd & 3rd consanguinity by the most
Revd. Doctor Laffan.

There appears to be a third witness John something or other. Is the rest correct?

Yes, that is correct - dispensed in 3rd degree/grade. That is an uncle-niece or aunt-nephew marriage. I thought they were illegal (civil law)? Still are in Britain AFAIK. They are also prohibited by the church, but can of course be dispensed (like everything). I saw one dispensation recorded in a register that was by the Pope!

montgo · 19-08-2015 7:17am

Oops, I've seen a number of 3/3 degree dispensations! A local priest had said that the bride & groom were cousins when I asked him for an explanation.

I would imagine that uncle/niece would be a more common than aunt/nephew combination?. If the marriages were illegal by both church & state, why were there so many of them? Would the couple be shunned by local community?

wexflyer · 19-08-2015 7:34am

montgo wrote: »

Oops, I've seen a number of 3/3 degree dispensations! A local priest had said that the bride & groom were cousins when I asked him for an explanation.

I would imagine that uncle/niece would be a more common than aunt/nephew combination?. If the marriages were illegal by both church & state, why were there so many of them? Would the couple be shunned by local community?

Oops, I am out by one in my numbering. - there is more than one system. So these are cousin marriages, not uncle niece. . Why so many - because in small rural communitities, the passage of time guarantees that must people are cousins to some level. But uncle/aunt niece /nephew marriages were rare.
Having been an "illegal organization" until 1829, I don't think the Catholic Church particularly cared what English civil law specified.

montgo · 19-08-2015 7:51am

Thanks for further explanation. I will have to look again how Matthew & Elizabeth were related.

Jellybaby1 · 19-08-2015 11:23am

wexflyer wrote: »

My vote is very strongly for Thomas. I can sew why people see Frances, but the letters at the end of name are clear - the are "..omas" which is inconsistent with Frances. The initial letter is a standard "T", it is only the "h" which is faint.

I looked at the link very late last night and couldn't focus. But today I agree with wexflyer, Thomas it is.

L1011 · 19-08-2015 11:31am

Looking at what I assumed were the actual registers for the 1840s/1850s for Terryglass/Kilbarron in Tipperary and thinking they were in extremely good nick, neat handwriting, printed lined fields and everything.

They were retranscribed in 1938! I worry what transcription errors could have occurred then...

montgo · 19-08-2015 12:04pm

L1011 wrote: »

Looking at what I assumed were the actual registers for the 1840s/1850s for Terryglass/Kilbarron in Tipperary and thinking they were in extremely good nick, neat handwriting, printed lined fields and everything.

They were retranscribed in 1938! I worry what transcription errors could have occurred then...

This happened in another parish that I have been looking at and there are a huge number of spelling errors. Obviously, surnames can be spelled in various ways but generally you would think that first names have more uniform spelling. examples: Biddy as Bidy, Maurice as Morice, Mick or Michael as Mic, etc, etc. If Roots transcribed the 1st names as written, then you might have had big problems finding the records that you wanted. In any case, even though the writing is excellent, most names are not written as you would normally spell them - I like "Bily Maid" ie Billy Meade

VirginiaB · 19-08-2015 1:33pm

Thanks for the votes re the baby's first name. Any other thoughts/opinions very welcome. I have stared at it til I'm blind.

Re cousin marriages. I have found them to be common, even among the next generation who were born in NY. I have also found a number of cases of two siblings from one family marrying two siblings from a related family. In one case, it was three of each from neighboring farms. My assumption is that it's about keeping land in the family in Ireland and close family relationships in NY.

I have also found cases where, when a woman's husband died, a relative was sent for from Ireland to marry her and support the children. Often that man was considerably younger. One of my gt gt grandfathers was 20 years younger than my gt gt grandmother, in a case such as this. What a surprise when I figured that one out.

Karen Cassidy · 19-08-2015 9:18pm

Can some one helpe decipher a dispensation it seems to say " Disp al Admitu" I may of course be misreading .

shanew · 19-08-2015 9:29pm

Karen Cassidy wrote: »

Can some one helpe decipher a dispensation it seems to say " Disp al Admitu" I may of course be misreading .

here's a link to the corresponding transcript and image - the marriage took place in St. Mary's Marlborough St. (Pro-Cathedral) in 1861

Karen Cassidy · 19-08-2015 10:07pm

Thanks Shanew didn't know how to do that ! I assume you knew it from a post elsewhere ?

P. Breathnach · 19-08-2015 11:38pm

Karen Cassidy wrote: »

Can some one helpe decipher a dispensation it seems to say " Disp al Admitu" I may of course be misreading .

Dispensatio ab Archiepiscope - dispensation from the archbishop.

CeannRua · 19-08-2015 11:57pm

montgo wrote: »

Help with the last entry on right side here dated 21 Feb 1830

=====

Patrick Blackburn, Matthew Blackburn, John ??
The aforesaid were dispensated(?) with by (?)
3rd & 3rd consanguinity by the most
Revd. Doctor Laffan.

There appears to be a third witness John something or other. Is the rest correct?

Some of your word endings are a bit wrong but it doesn't affect the meaning you've taken out of it. The witness John's surname could be something like Flynn. Can't see all of the name though.

CeannRua · 20-08-2015 12:01am

VirginiaB wrote: »

I am sorry for my mistake about the Irish language reference.

I found the parents' marriage and baptisms of five children on RootsIreland five years ago. This particular baptism wasn't there as far as I could see at the time. I just found it when the images came online and I was searching the parents' names.

This says that the former name for Clifford was possibly Ballinaraha so might explain the confusion... http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/places/northcorkcounty/grovewhitenotes/cliffordtocurrymount/gw2_200_205.pdf

Handwriting decipher thread *must post link to full page*

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Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page