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21-05-2021, 01:21   #16
fvp4
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What's this?! No mention of Marx yet?

A Marxist reading of Irish history would describe, and indeed have predicted, a bourgeois counter-revolution to "keep the peace", which is always shorthand for "preserve capital", immediately following independence.

This isn't to say the immediate causes of the Civil War have been misidentified, just that they were only the immediate causes.

The motivations of a certain class (I don't think bourgeois is right for Ireland at that time, but we may use it as sufficiently close description) obviously underpinned their pragmatic approach, or what they would have described as pragmatic.

This is a feature of all revolutions. Maybe the classic examples are France in 1814 and the aftermath of the July Revolution. Victor Hugo calls them the "contented" cohort, the man who has time to sit down; but in sitting down, may stop the march of progress – I'm paraphrasing, but I always liked that analogy!
Why should we take the Marxist view of history seriously? The supposed engine of history, class conflict, isn’t a major force in history. Ethnic conflict is. Ireland didn’t have a proletarian Revolution hijacked by the middle classes (funny enough that more clearly defines the Bolshevik Revolution), there was a national anti colonial uprising.
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21-05-2021, 11:20   #17
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Why should we take the Marxist view of history seriously? The supposed engine of history, class conflict, isn’t a major force in history. Ethnic conflict is. Ireland didn’t have a proletarian Revolution hijacked by the middle classes (funny enough that more clearly defines the Bolshevik Revolution), there was a national anti colonial uprising.
As said before the engine of the revolution in Ireland were young educated middle class and wealthy Irish nationalists and republicans.
The civil war was over the oath of allegiance and the rejection of the Irish Free State by men who continued to believe in the Irish Republic declared in 1916.
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21-05-2021, 14:32   #18
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As said before the engine of the revolution in Ireland were young educated middle class and wealthy Irish nationalists and republicans.
That doesn’t really explain any Marxist position, either way. Lamb was talking about a bourgeois “counterrevolution”, and I’m not sure where that applies.

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The civil war was over the oath of allegiance and the rejection of the Irish Free State by men who continued to believe in the Irish Republic declared in 1916.
Nor that.

Let’s actually dismiss the Marxist theory. A Marxist analysis would expect the working classes, Protestant and Catholic, to be on the same side and the “bourgeoisie” on the other. I think we can safely ignore that.

Last edited by fvp4; 21-05-2021 at 15:19.
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21-05-2021, 20:16   #19
A Tyrant Named Miltiades!
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The civil war was over the oath of allegiance and the rejection of the Irish Free State by men who continued to believe in the Irish Republic declared in 1916.
Nobody would deny that, those are bare historical facts on a branch of history. Let us look into the roots.

What was their motivation in settling? That's the question, we would like to know what motivated them.
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21-05-2021, 20:32   #20
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What's this?! No mention of Marx yet?

A Marxist reading of Irish history would describe, and indeed have predicted, a bourgeois counter-revolution to "keep the peace", which is always shorthand for "preserve capital", immediately following independence.

This isn't to say the immediate causes of the Civil War have been misidentified, just that they were only the immediate causes.

The motivations of a certain class (I don't think bourgeois is right for Ireland at that time, but we may use it as sufficiently close description) obviously underpinned their pragmatic approach, or what they would have described as pragmatic.

This is a feature of all revolutions. Maybe the classic examples are France in 1814 and the aftermath of the July Revolution. Victor Hugo calls them the "contented" cohort, the man who has time to sit down; but in sitting down, may stop the march of progress – I'm paraphrasing, but I always liked that analogy!
I would say the Bolshevik coup of October 1917 was also a counter-revolution.
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21-05-2021, 20:55   #21
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That doesn’t really explain any Marxist position, either way. Lamb was talking about a bourgeois “counterrevolution”, and I’m not sure where that applies.



Nor that.

Let’s actually dismiss the Marxist theory. A Marxist analysis would expect the working classes, Protestant and Catholic, to be on the same side and the “bourgeoisie” on the other. I think we can safely ignore that.
This is true that Protestants & Catholics have not seen eye to eye, but it's also true that it would be beneficial for the bourgeoisie to have religious & ethnic divides, because if the working class are fighting each other over God & their skin colour then their not uniting to fight against class divides, which actually helps explain why the social higher ups would seek to impose the divide & conquer strategy.

And their have been brief moments like 1798, 1803, 1848 or the riots in Belfast after the great depression were Protestants & Catholics united to challenge the power of the state, and the state did everything in it's power to stoke sectarian tension, a technique used in the Troubles with Glenanne Gang.
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22-05-2021, 08:32   #22
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I would say the Bolshevik coup of October 1917 was also a counter-revolution.
I'd have thought that a counter-revolution ought to pull against the force of the original movement, not augment it.

The Irish Civil War was, by that standard, a counter-revolution, and a bourgeois one. It assiduously recoiled from the aims of the independence movement, going so far as to obtain British assistance in so doing. Economic motivations cannot be ignored when assessing its motivations. The OP has asked a really interesting question, worthy of further reading.

I'm not aware of anything that explicitly addresses this in detail. There are a few articles on JSTOR about Marxist conceptions of Irish independence but not much on the Civil War. If anyone knows of some good material (doesn't have to be Marxist, but any economic analysis of political motivations in that period) it would be great.
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22-05-2021, 08:38   #23
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Consider 100 years on and who is pro mask or anti mask pro vaccine or anti vaccine pro lockdown or anti lockdown has nothing to do with socio economic factors.

The civil war was fought over allegiance to the Irish Republic declared in 1916. Class had little or no bearing on whether you were pro or anti Treaty. Comrades who fought together many who were friends relatives and especially brothers fell out fatally.

These were men in their teens and twenties educated in Catholic national schools some with university education from rural middle class farming backgrounds steeped in Catholic culture and the Gaelic revival. Men with the same upbringing and background and ideological beliefs fell out over the Treaty and the oath of allegiance.

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10-06-2021, 18:04   #24
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I'd have thought that a counter-revolution ought to pull against the force of the original movement, not augment it.

The Irish Civil War was, by that standard, a counter-revolution, and a bourgeois one. It assiduously recoiled from the aims of the independence movement, going so far as to obtain British assistance in so doing. Economic motivations cannot be ignored when assessing its motivations. The OP has asked a really interesting question, worthy of further reading.

I'm not aware of anything that explicitly addresses this in detail. There are a few articles on JSTOR about Marxist conceptions of Irish independence but not much on the Civil War. If anyone knows of some good material (doesn't have to be Marxist, but any economic analysis of political motivations in that period) it would be great.
Aye, that's why I'd say the Bolsheviks were counter-revolutionaries, for crushing the final phase of the Russian Revolution & instituting a Latin Style terror state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Russian_Revolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-w...the_Bolsheviks

And there were some real socialist & democratic organizations that joined together that could have made something beautiful. Instead we got one of the worst tyrannies of the 20th century but with a smaller reach & sphere than the US.

Last edited by BalcombeSt4; 10-06-2021 at 18:09.
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