Card minimum spend!

enda1 · 08-09-2014 9:59am

Surely it costs a lot more to handle cash than card though ultimately.
having to worry about cash transit costs, robbery, till theft, insurance, counterfeiting, cash-registers, illiquidity, cash-in-hand etc.

Paying electronically should be encouraged on a national level to cut business costs and lost revenue to the state.

dRNk SAnTA · 08-09-2014 10:40am

JustAddWater wrote: »

Who do you report them to? Couldn't find much info online!

I had only just read this article last year about how merchants are breaking the rules and could have their pay facilities removed if they charge a minimum fee - when I found myself faced with a €15 euro minimum charge at a bar in Dublin.

It meant had to go out and walk 5 minutes down the road to get cash.

Pissed off, I sent an email of complaint to the Irish Payment Services Organisation Limited (http://www.ipso.ie/)

The reply that I got said that IPSO doesn't have a direct relationship with retailers but works with the card payment processors and will bring complaints to their attention.

"We receive reports, from time to time, from consumers about minimum spend limits in stores. This practice is against general terms and conditions for payment card acceptance. Reports of such nature should really be sent directly to the shop’s card processor, but while the information regarding that particular bank is not always apparent to the customer, queries are sent through this office on occasion; where we are in a position to identify the retailer’s bank or card processor and to alert them to the issue or non-compliance with the relevant terms."

So I sent over the name, address of Pub and a picture that I snapped of the "€15 minimum" sign behind the bar.

Never heard anything back... must check if the signs are still there. I haven't been back to the pub since.

Hootanany · 08-09-2014 11:03am

rob316 wrote: »

You should take issue with the phone companies instead who are wholesaling the credit to retailers at a price higher than what you pay. Yes report the retailers because god forbid the corner shop don't make a loss on the service they provide.

Consumers love to be all high and mighty until they actually run a business themselves.

So phone companies charge more to the retailer than the public?

FTA69 · 08-09-2014 11:39am

This used to break my heart when I worked in a pub. Balls to the wall busy with matches on a Sunday and you have a queue of nobends who are looking to pay for their lemonades separately and on cards. Am I the only one who would be embarrassed to pay for an orange juice on a debit card?

pickarooney · 08-09-2014 2:17pm

FTA69 wrote: »

This used to break my heart when I worked in a pub. Balls to the wall busy with matches on a Sunday and you have a queue of nobends who are looking to pay for their lemonades separately and on cards. Am I the only one who would be embarrassed to pay for an orange juice on a debit card?

That's some very payment-method specific form of shame. I can't say In understand it myself.

cillit_bang · 08-09-2014 2:26pm

Imagine, in a perfect world, where only cards were accepted. Imagine all of the hassle that would be taken away for shops with cashing up. The sheer amount of accounting that would automatically be done by software would be immense. That alone would be a massive saving on man power and thus, costs.

B.A._Baracus · 08-09-2014 2:39pm

cillit_bang wrote: »

Imagine, in a perfect world, where only cards were accepted. Imagine all of the hassle that would be taken away for shops with cashing up. The sheer amount of accounting that would automatically be done by software would be immense. That alone would be a massive saving on man power and thus, costs.

I wouldn't call that a perfect world :pac:
We all know the deal with banks ... make money off your money. But no cash? They would cream in their pants.

Charging a percentage for every transaction and everyone has to pay by card? ... why dont we all just sign our lives away to banks :pac:

nelly17 · 08-09-2014 2:54pm

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

I wouldn't call that a perfect world :pac:
We all know the deal with banks ... make money off your money. But no cash? They would cream in their pants.

Charging a percentage for every transaction and everyone has to pay by card? ... why dont we all just sign our lives away to banks :pac:

Chances are if you have a mortgage you allready have

Lux23 · 08-09-2014 2:56pm

It makes sense to use cash, the banks are beginning to charge for every transaction.

Irishcrx · 08-09-2014 3:10pm

Ah yes , the minimum spend dillema. Best is when they tell you there's an ATM in the back with a smirk on their face....

But of course the ****ing ATM is out of service...

boardzz · 08-09-2014 3:13pm

A lot of stores around the country operate card terminals under AIB merchant services. The terms and conditions under AIB tells the merchant that they must not set a minimum transaction amount. Doing this is breaking their terms and conditions.

08-09-2014 3:20pm

Irishcrx wrote: »

Ah yes , the minimum spend dillema. Best is when they tell you there's an ATM in the back with a smirk on their face....

But of course the ****ing ATM is out of service...

^^^ that sounds familiar.

My local shop has a minimum spend. I didn't realise it was a breach of contract they have with the merchant. They also told me that the paypal machine was cash only. So, I would have to spend a fiver, get cashback and then do the paypal transaction!

Mr Shopkeeper, if the system is too expensive for you then don't install it.

HellboundIRL · 08-09-2014 3:27pm

I was in the shop on Friday, I had 6 euro in change but what I got came to 7 so I asked if I could pay by card, the shop assistant was hesitant at first but said she'd charge me 10 on the card and give me back 3 euro in change...it just seemed so backwards. I hate the minimum spend shíte but I suppose I can understand it for some shops if the fees are high.

pickarooney · 08-09-2014 3:34pm

Lux23 wrote: »

It makes sense to use cash, the banks are beginning to charge for every transaction.

Such as withdrawing cash?

Shakespeare's Sister · 08-09-2014 3:35pm

Irishcrx wrote: »

Ah yes , the minimum spend dillema. Best is when they tell you there's an ATM in the back with a smirk on their face....

But of course the ****ing ATM is out of service...

You're imagining the smirk I'd say.

RhubarbCrumble · 08-09-2014 3:38pm

same ol sh1te wrote: »

I've done that. Went to a checkout with a roll and coffee, the assistant said 'we don't accept card transactions for less than a tenner'. I said 'i hope you take 2 sugars' and just walked out.

Big man. Were you proud of yourself afterwards for being so rude? It wasn't the assistants fault you know.

I used to work in a convenience store and the amount of rude, ignorant people I encountered was something else. It's a horrible, back breaking, minimum wage job and the assistants don't need to be abused by people like you OP for something that they have no control over.

08-09-2014 3:39pm

irishgeo wrote: »

I'll get the info later.

Would like this information too, the Londis in Sandyford has started this act with a €5 minimum spend. I know its a franchise store so I'm going to contact Londis head office and see what they have to say about it.

same ol sh1te · 08-09-2014 3:45pm

RhubarbCrumble wrote: »

Big man. Were you proud of yourself afterwards for being so rude? It wasn't the assistants fault you know.

I used to work in a convenience store and the amount of rude, ignorant people I encountered was something else. It's a horrible, back breaking, minimum wage job and the assistants don't need to be abused by people like you OP for something that they have no control over.

Sorry, but where is the rudeness? If I don't have cash and only have a card I cannot compete the transaction.

boardzz · 08-09-2014 3:47pm

same ol sh1te wrote: »

Sorry, but where is the rudeness? If I don't have cash and only have a card I cannot compete the transaction.

Saying I hope you take 2 sugars is the rude part as i'm sure you're aware.

swampy353 · 08-09-2014 3:47pm

For debit card transactions we are charged a flat rate of 25c, we have a minimum spend so that we are not losing money by providing a service to the customer. The charge applies to all debit transactions whether chip and pin or nfc

ScumLord · 08-09-2014 3:49pm

There shouldn't really be a transaction fee on digital payments. If we're all being moved towards digital payments then it should be more or less the same as a cash transaction and the banks don't get a cut of every bit of cash we spend.

I really don't like the idea of us all being forced into giving a cut of every cent we spend to the banks.

I understand there are costs associated with digital payments but the government should work something out with the banks that remove fees on individual transactions because I don't accept that digital transactions are more expensive than cash.

cillit_bang · 08-09-2014 3:50pm

We could certainly get a crowdsourced list up and running of shops that do this - then one by one report them to whatever merchant they operate with. That would quickly bring a stop to it.

boardzz · 08-09-2014 3:50pm

swampy353 wrote: »

For debit card transactions we are charged a flat rate of 25c, we have a minimum spend so that we are not losing money by providing a service to the customer. The charge applies to all debit transactions whether chip and pin or nfc

Have you read the terms and conditions you got from your merchant services provider.

srsly78 · 08-09-2014 3:52pm

Yep it's all a money-making racket here.

There are places abroad however where the cashless society is (was?) a reality: Brussels for example. There was a city-wide card scheme, with no charges for the merchant or the customer - thus it had almost 100% uptake. No need to carry cash at all. It was their equivalent of the laser card, maybe this has also been forced to phase out and return to visa debit however - I haven't been back in a few years.

ukoda · 08-09-2014 3:55pm

swampy353 wrote: »

For debit card transactions we are charged a flat rate of 25c, we have a minimum spend so that we are not losing money by providing a service to the customer. The charge applies to all debit transactions whether chip and pin or nfc

Its most likely you are in breach of your contract with your card merchant and you'd want to double check this before you get into trouble

cillit_bang · 08-09-2014 3:55pm

srsly78 wrote: »

Yep it's all a money-making racket here.

There are places abroad however where the cashless society is (was?) a reality: Brussels for example. There was a city-wide card scheme, with no charges for the merchant or the customer - thus it had almost 100% uptake. No need to carry cash at all. It was their equivalent of the laser card, maybe this has also been forced to phase out and return to visa debit however - I haven't been back in a few years.

It really is a money-making racket on the part of the merchants.

They should only be allowed to charge a monthly fee to the retailers.

There are merchants of these products but, eh, id say they just all agree to charge retails. It wouldn't surprise me if they all had meetings together and were price fixing so everyone benefits.

suicide_circus · 08-09-2014 4:04pm

same ol sh1te wrote: »

I've done that. Went to a checkout with a roll and coffee, the assistant said 'we don't accept card transactions for less than a tenner'. I said 'i hope you take 2 sugars' and just walked out.

Was this one of these comebacks you thought of hours later? Either way I can assure you, the assistant didn't give two fcuks for your withering retort or your two sugars.

pickarooney · 08-09-2014 4:26pm

swampy353 wrote: »

For debit card transactions we are charged a flat rate of 25c, we have a minimum spend so that we are not losing money by providing a service to the customer. The charge applies to all debit transactions whether chip and pin or nfc

Why don't shops just charge the 25c to the customer in this case instead of eveyone ending up frustrated and annoyed and the transaction cancelled and possibly food and drink going to waste?

CruelCoin · 08-09-2014 4:39pm

cillit_bang wrote: »

One thing that has f***ING annoyed me to no end in the last few months is business putting a 'minimum spend' on cards.

It's so infuriating, more and more people are moving to using less cash and they still have this rule, which is wildly variable depending on the business. Why are they refusing business!?

Most don't even put up a sign to say about the minimum spend.

Say you have a 5% nett margin. Next say you have a 3% charge per credit card transaction.

Now, if you were that business, would you accept a €5 sale?

paconnors · 08-09-2014 4:39pm

pickarooney wrote:

Why don't shops just charge the 25c to the customer in this case instead of eveyone ending up frustrated and annoyed and the transaction cancelled and possibly food and drink going to waste?

I used to work in a shop and we had a minimum spend of â‚¬10 on debit or credit card transactions, and if it was under the tenner and the customer wanted to use their card they could pay a 20c surcharge if they wanted to use the card, most of them had no problem with this when we used to explain that the banks charged us a charge for taking payments by card, and it wasn't worth for us on transactions under the â‚¬10.

ukoda · 08-09-2014 4:48pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

Say you have a 5% nett margin. Next say you have a 3% charge per credit card transaction.

Now, if you were that business, would you accept a €5 sale?

yes, as under my merchant card services agreement I'm contractually obliged to.

I take the good with the bad, thats the nature of business, I'm smart enough to know that generally taking cards is good for my customers and for my business, so I'm able to look at the bigger picture

WilyCoyote · 08-09-2014 4:51pm

I can't see why some of these smaller shops can't use a swiper on a mobile phone with the associated lower costs ........ no hiring of a card reader, no start up fee, no cut on every sale you make and no subscription fees. You've got a few PAY-AS-YOU-GO outfits that charge around 2.7% and these kick out a receipt. No set up or cancellation fees. And you're away from the counter quicker than paying/counting cash.

srsly78 · 08-09-2014 4:57pm

Doesn't matter what terminal is used, the same companies are involved at the back-end.

EyeSight · 08-09-2014 5:13pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

Say you have a 5% nett margin. Next say you have a 3% charge per credit card transaction.

Now, if you were that business, would you accept a €5 sale?

I would. It is still a profit over noting, seems logical to take it

Also you need to think of the big picture(again simple business logic some places can't comprehend) of customer loyalty. E.g. Centra used to have this rule. So anytime i wanted to buy something under 10 euros and had no change, i never went to centra. Now Centra may not have this rule anymore, but i stopped going these for this reason so i do not know.

These are probably the same business who moan about the tough economy and blame that on why they cut staff hours. Yet they are turning away sales...

swampy353 · 08-09-2014 5:20pm

pickarooney wrote: »

Why don't shops just charge the 25c to the customer in this case instead of eveyone ending up frustrated and annoyed and the transaction cancelled and possibly food and drink going to waste?

It's an idea, just to clarify our position we have an atm within 2 feet of the door, we waive any minimum spend on card if the Atm is out of service.
We are not trying to gouge the customer by forcing them go spend more, we are a business that runs on very tight margins and when you have someone coming in to buy a freddo (30c) and try to use a card, we would be better off just giving the product away.
We don't use aib merchant services

MagicMarker · 08-09-2014 5:28pm

paconnors wrote: »

we used to explain that the banks charged us a charge for taking payments by card, and it wasn't worth for us on transactions under the â‚¬10.

There's not a chance in hell that the charges are so high that it's simply not worth it for you to allow someone to pay a €9.99 bill with a credit/debit card.

x43r0 · 08-09-2014 5:31pm

It really grinds my gears whenever I visit home I have to take out cash all the time

Over here I can buy a litre of milk and use a contactless card. So much quicker and easier

ScumLord · 08-09-2014 5:36pm

EyeSight wrote: »

I would. It is still a profit over noting, seems logical to take it

So you'd have no problem throwing away 60% of your profits? They may be small sales but when you have a lot of small sales it quickly adds up to a large chunk of your profits disappearing.

You can't just take a hit like that and expect to still be in business.

EyeSight · 08-09-2014 5:42pm

ScumLord wrote: »

So you'd have no problem throwing away 60% of your profits? They may be small sales but when you have a lot of small sales it quickly adds up to a large chunk of your profits disappearing.

You can't just take a hit like that and expect to still be in business.

I don't think it's 60% but it's still a profit. Would you rather a profit or no sale at all?

ardmacha · 08-09-2014 5:45pm

Why should the rest of us that manage to carry sufficient cash for small transactions be subsiding you who couldn't be bothered?

MagicMarker · 08-09-2014 5:49pm

ardmacha wrote: »

Why should the rest of us that manage to carry sufficient cash for small transactions be subsiding you who couldn't be bothered?

How are you, a user of cash, "subsiding" me, a user of card?

shruikan2553 · 08-09-2014 5:49pm

ardmacha wrote: »

Why should the rest of us that manage to carry sufficient cash for small transactions be subsiding you who couldn't be bothered?

What's the point in using cash and card? Just take out the cash you'll need while you're there. Having to go to an ATM to take cash out defeats a large purpose of using the visa card.

ScumLord · 08-09-2014 5:55pm

EyeSight wrote: »

I don't think it's 60% but it's still a profit. Would you rather a profit or no sale at all?

It's pointless thinking about it like that because if you don't make enough profit you might as well not bother. The shop can't take hits like that, they can't work for next to nothing or they go out of business.

My local shop does this too and I hate it, although it depends on who's on the till. The young ones will always say you need to spend €10, the older workers will just let me off because I'm in there every day.

I don't blame the shop though, they shouldn't be expected to lose money due to bank charges. The banks make huge profits on these digital charges and it cost them very little to take the payment.

EyeSight · 08-09-2014 5:58pm

ardmacha wrote: »

Why should the rest of us that manage to carry sufficient cash for small transactions be subsiding you who couldn't be bothered?

You are not subsidizing anyone

Stores still make a profit, just slightly less than they would with cash.

EyeSight · 08-09-2014 6:00pm

ScumLord wrote: »

It's pointless thinking about it like that because if you don't make enough profit you might as well not bother. The shop can't take hits like that, they can't work for next to nothing or they go out of business.

My local shop does this too and I hate it, although it depends on who's on the till. The young ones will always say you need to spend €10, the older workers will just let me off because I'm in there every day.

I don't blame the shop though, they shouldn't be expected to lose money due to bank charges. The banks make huge profits on these digital charges and it cost them very little to take the payment.

again, they are not losing money on the sale. They are making money, just slightly less. Unless they have a business where 90% transactions are 1 euro, this wouldn't have a large affect

ScumLord · 08-09-2014 6:10pm

EyeSight wrote: »

again, they are not losing money on the sale. They are making money, just slightly less. Unless they have a business where 90% transactions are 1 euro, this wouldn't have a large affect

They are losing money on what they expect or need to take in to cover their costs. Shops work out what profit they need to make, if they're going to lose out on 60% of that profit it's a loss. Small shops probably have a large amount of their sales under €10. You go in for milk when you're stuck but do your big shop in one of the supermarkets.

CruelCoin · 08-09-2014 8:29pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

How are you, a user of cash, "subsiding" me, a user of card?

Why do you think?

A portion of the sellers profits go towards servicing the sale to the card holder.
In any normal business those costs are recouped by raising the prices for everyone.

pajor · 08-09-2014 8:34pm

HellboundIRL wrote: »

I was in the shop on Friday, I had 6 euro in change but what I got came to 7 so I asked if I could pay by card, the shop assistant was hesitant at first but said she'd charge me 10 on the card and give me back 3 euro in change...it just seemed so backwards. I hate the minimum spend shíte but I suppose I can understand it for some shops if the fees are high.

First place I came across it being done like this was the pub in Heuston Station.

Ah well, just buy another pint with the change.

CruelCoin · 08-09-2014 8:36pm

EyeSight wrote: »

again, they are not losing money on the sale. They are making money, just slightly less. Unless they have a business where 90% transactions are 1 euro, this wouldn't have a large affect

The margin a business sets for itself covers much more than just the "am i in the black" factor.

Small business owners tend to work far longer weeks, with much greater levels of stress than the average 9-5er.
The margin they aim for is there to not only allow for business buffer/growth, but to act as compensation for the time and stress.
If you're saying they shoul;d be happier with the reduced margins, why not go a step further and encourage them to say "**** it, i'd be happier with a clockin card".

Guy:Incognito · 08-09-2014 8:40pm

srsly78 wrote: »

Yep it's all a money-making racket here.
.

Are for-profit businesses not money making rackets by definition?

Card minimum spend!

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