Residing in Northern Ireland - potential employer not happy

onrail · 18-05-2021 11:39am #1

Before I start, I plan to contact an accountant, but not anticipating a quick response! Mods feel free to delete if this is overstepping the advice mark.

I'm currently living primarily in Northern Ireland, but have significant links to ROI, a bank account in my name, an address etc. Over the course of a year, my living arrangements are typically 10 months in NI, 2 months in ROI but I plan to move to ROI permanently within the next 12-18 months.

I've a contract offer from an employer in Dublin, who I asked in vague terms whether it would be acceptable to live in NI while working for them (WFH and commuting 1-2 days per week regardless of location.) They've come back saying this wouldn't be acceptable - I would have to be residing in the ROI tax juristiction.

My question is whether there would be any practical barrier for me to simply use my ROI address with them.

I've no problem whatsoever fulfilling any tax obligations to either juristiction and have done so in the past. My PPS is currently registered to my address in NI.

DmanDmythDledge · 18-05-2021 9:16pm

Might be more of an employment law question - not sure if they can not give you the job based on that reason but I wouldn't be an expert in that area. From their pov, I would imagine they don't want the hassle of potentially applying UK payroll/PAYE taxes.

onrail · 18-05-2021 11:13pm

Would it be worthwhile posting in another forum? Funny thing is, I know of another employee in the same company who's based in NI and the question was never asked of him.

19-05-2021 7:36am

Any practical problem from lieing to your employer and potentially putting them on the wrong side of the law?

onrail · 19-05-2021 8:13am

Deleted User wrote: »

Any practical problem from lieing to your employer and potentially putting them on the wrong side of the law?

Tongue in cheek I presume?

1. I've two residences.
2. I plan to be in ROI long term
3. Regardless, they have other staff based in NI who are simply paid in Euro, through the ROI tax system.

There are thousands of cross border workers, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Half the reason I'm posting here.

19-05-2021 9:44am

onrail wrote: »

Tongue in cheek I presume?

1. I've two residences.
2. I plan to be in ROI long term
3. Regardless, they have other staff based in NI who are simply paid in Euro, through the ROI tax system.

There are thousands of cross border workers, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Half the reason I'm posting here.

Not at all tongue in cheek.
Your employer has said no, they don't particularly have to give a reason for that.

If you want to lie to them and say you are working in the Republic that is up to you.

onrail · 19-05-2021 11:48am

Deleted User wrote: »

Not at all tongue in cheek.
Your employer has said no, they don't particularly have to give a reason for that.

If you want to lie to them and say you are working in the Republic that is up to you.

But is it a lie? I will be working in ROI, on ROI payroll and paying tax in ROI, as with my current employer.

19-05-2021 12:04pm

onrail wrote: »

I'm currently living primarily in Northern Ireland

onrail wrote: »

But is it a lie? I will be working in ROI, on ROI payroll and paying tax in ROI, as with my current employer.

You asked and they said no.
You will be working from home which you say is in NI.
You wouldn't be asking here if you thought it didn't matter.

barneystinson · 19-05-2021 12:21pm

Leaving aside tax issues, would there be issues with regard to your working from home in another jurisdiction, if you're accessing their systems and dealing with sensitive data, in another jurisdiction. You'd be exposing them to regulatory issues that they don't even know they're exposed to...

Snugbugrug28 · 19-05-2021 12:34pm

I think you're tax resident in the north so they would have to arrange for tax to be paid there etc. Probably an unholy mess for an employer.

If you cross the border 183 days in a year you can be tax resident in the south and ordinary resident in the north. Technically you could carry on as if you are based in the south, I don't see the problem. But don't get an ISA account

onrail · 19-05-2021 12:49pm

Snugbugrug28 wrote: »

I think you're tax resident in the north so they would have to arrange for tax to be paid there etc. Probably an unholy mess for an employer.

If you cross the border 183 days in a year you can be tax resident in the south and ordinary resident in the north. Technically you could carry on as if you are based in the south, I don't see the problem. But don't get an ISA account

For my current employer, I'm doing something similar with little issue. Simply paying ROI tax 'at source' and then submitting an end of year tax return to UK HMRC.

Ideally, I'd plan to carry on doing the same, and I know of an existing employee in the same company doing that. That's what is puzzling me.

I already have an ISA account

onrail · 19-05-2021 12:53pm

barneystinson wrote: »

Leaving aside tax issues, would there be issues with regard to your working from home in another jurisdiction, if you're accessing their systems and dealing with sensitive data, in another jurisdiction. You'd be exposing them to regulatory issues that they don't even know they're exposed to...

Yeah fair enough, that's something I hadn't anticipated.

I'm just left in a bind as to whether to use my ROI address or to challenge the potential employer's stance, given that they already have employees in the same situation. Ultimately, I'd love to take the job, but can't permanently move within the next 12ish months for practical reasons.

hero001 · 19-05-2021 1:05pm

onrail wrote: »

Before I start, I plan to contact an accountant, but not anticipating a quick response! Mods feel free to delete if this is overstepping the advice mark.

I'm currently living primarily in Northern Ireland, but have significant links to ROI, a bank account in my name, an address etc. Over the course of a year, my living arrangements are typically 10 months in NI, 2 months in ROI but I plan to move to ROI permanently within the next 12-18 months.

I've a contract offer from an employer in Dublin, who I asked in vague terms whether it would be acceptable to live in NI while working for them (WFH and commuting 1-2 days per week regardless of location.) They've come back saying this wouldn't be acceptable - I would have to be residing in the ROI tax juristiction.

My question is whether there would be any practical barrier for me to simply use my ROI address with them.

I've no problem whatsoever fulfilling any tax obligations to either juristiction and have done so in the past. My PPS is currently registered to my address in NI.

This is not a straightforward question, as others have commented, there are also non-tax issues to consider, together with practical issues, like if you have a long commute, will this position work for you long term etc.

From a tax point of view, a lot will depend on exactly what Job you are doing and how your employer is structured, and if you will be working from home.

For example, if you have a sales role and undertake activities from NI home, strictly speaking, you could create a UK perminant establishment (PE) for your employer, which would create a lot of admin problems. It might also open up the possibility of dual Ireland and UK withholding.

I have seen a lot of big 4 tax people highlighting this issue recently and I understand a number of employers don't want to know about it so are simply banning people from working at home outside the country.

Another possibility is that your employer is a UK company and you are working for an ROI branch. If that's the case, there would be all sorts of tax issues.

jimmycrackcorm · 19-05-2021 1:11pm

onrail wrote: »

Would it be worthwhile posting in another forum? Funny thing is, I know of another employee in the same company who's based in NI and the question was never asked of him.

That's because the other employer never mentioned it to HR. I'd just use my ROI address in reference to the employer. There shouldn't be any practical issues as another poster mentions, there are thousands of cross-border workers without issues apart from cross-border taxation.

19-05-2021 1:13pm

There are lots of practicalities.
As above your personal tax is one and data sharing is another.
Employers NI vs PRSI.
Compliance with various employment laws like health and safety.
The risk of creating a permanent establishment and uk authorities wanting profits and taxes to be recorded there.
Value for money.

My own employer has lots of workers across the world asking if they could work for extended periods in different countries. The group response has been a flat no and it is causing lots of grumbling and comparisons to individuals and other employers.

The OP isn't describing a cross border scenario where they are commuting from Newry to Dundalk every morning for work and then back again every evening. They would be living and working in the UK. It would be clearer if they were in Glasgow say.

Charles Babbage · 19-05-2021 1:23pm

Thousands of people live in NI and work in the ROI, a quarter of employees in Dundalk probably live in NI.
Your employer is not entitled to determine where you live, only that you comply with tax law and there is no problem doing this.
You live in NI and you work in Dublin and you sometimes work from home, and you come to Dublin on various days. In principle, you might come in to the office any day that was required, you might come in for the afternoon if asked in the morning. You are no different than someone living in Laois.

I wouldn't accept any employer telling you otherwise. Living outside the country is one thing, living outside the state is another. Any employer who engages in this form of discrimination should be called out.

Take the job with some convenient address and then change it with the Revenue.

zephyro · 19-05-2021 1:27pm

onrail wrote: »

I've a contract offer from an employer in Dublin

You mean as a contractor or employee?

LawBoy2018 · 19-05-2021 1:28pm

I think you're missing the point. Do you think it would be acceptable for a person from Wales who happened to own a property in Sligo to use his Irish address in a manner similar to what you have suggested?

19-05-2021 1:31pm

I know many many people who live in the North and work in the South, many are employed by the state. I don't see how this is different? Pay tax in the South.

jimmycrackcorm · 19-05-2021 1:35pm

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

I think you're missing the point. Do you think it would be acceptable for a person from Wales who happened to own a property in Sligo to use his Irish address in a manner similar to what you have suggested?

Wales is different. An Employer couldn't discriminate against an employee who lives in NI. E.g. if you lived and worked in Dundalk for a company but then moved house to Newry, would your employer be entitled to fire you for that?

19-05-2021 1:37pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Thousands of people live in NI and work in the ROI, a quarter of employees in Dundalk probably live in NI.
Your employer is not entitled to determine where you live, only that you comply with tax law and there is no problem doing this.
You live in NI and you work in Dublin and you sometimes work from home, and you come to Dublin on various days. In principle, you might come in to the office any day that was required, you might come in for the afternoon if asked in the morning. You are no different than someone living in Laois.

I wouldn't accept any employer telling you otherwise. Living outside the country is one thing, living outside the state is another. Any employer who engages in this form of discrimination should be called out.

A nonsense comparison.
The OP doesn't have the job yet, they floated the idea and were told no.
Which discrimination law should apply by the way - NI (slightly different to UK) or ROI?
Which grounds are they being discriminated under?

onrail · 19-05-2021 1:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

There are lots of practicalities.
As above your personal tax is one and data sharing is another.
Employers NI vs PRSI.
Compliance with various employment laws like health and safety.
The risk of creating a permanent establishment and uk authorities wanting profits and taxes to be recorded there.
Value for money.

My own employer has lots of workers across the world asking if they could work for extended periods in different countries. The group response has been a flat no and it is causing lots of grumbling and comparisons to individuals and other employers.

The OP isn't describing a cross border scenario where they are commuting from Newry to Dundalk every morning for work and then back again every evening. They would be living and working in the UK. It would be clearer if they were in Glasgow say.

Leaving aside the employer's policy, would I be correct in saying that all of these issues would disappear if I drove to Dundalk and set up my laptop in a Cafe for my workday?

onrail · 19-05-2021 2:02pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Take the job with some convenient address and then change it with the Revenue.

You mean change it to the NI or ROI address?

For what it's worth, my potential line manager in this job is telling me (informally) to just put down the southern address.
Nub of the problem is that I want to ensure I'm completely tax compliant, both sides of the border.

19-05-2021 2:02pm

onrail wrote: »

Leaving aside the employer's policy, would I be correct in saying that all of these issues would disappear if I drove to Dundalk and set up my laptop in a Cafe for my workday?

Probably, yes.

Edit: I think your personal tax compliance won't be a problem- you seem to have a grasp on it.

The risk is to your employer.

Charles Babbage · 19-05-2021 2:14pm

onrail wrote: »

Put down the ROI address and change it after you start.

They might find some bull**** excuse for not employing you but they cannot sack you for moving from Dundalk to Newry.

The risk is to your employer.

There is no risk, there is something like the 40,000 cross border workers. The employer doesn't have to do anything different from any other employee.

19-05-2021 2:55pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

They might find some bull**** excuse for not employing you but they cannot sack you for moving from Dundalk to Newry.

There is no risk, there is something like the 40,000 cross border workers. The employer doesn't have to do anything different from any other employee.

It's not crossing the border for work the employer seems to have the problem with, it's the not crossing the border and working that is the problem.

I'm sure thousands are doing it - my employer has turned up a fair few who were doing it without corporate knowledge. Their line managers often knew but didn't see the risk. Only with Covid did it come to a head.

It doesn't mean there is no risk to the employer.

Charles Babbage · 19-05-2021 3:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not crossing the border for work the employer seems to have the problem with, it's the not crossing the border and working that is the problem.

I'm sure thousands are doing it - my employer has turned up a fair few who were doing it without corporate knowledge. Their line managers often knew but didn't see the risk. Only with Covid did it come to a head.

It doesn't mean there is no risk to the employer.

Given me one example, other than to do with vehicles, in the last 100 years of an employer having a problem because of hiring a cross-border employee.

19-05-2021 3:13pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Given me one example, other than to do with vehicles, in the last 100 years of an employer having a problem because of hiring a cross-border employee.

In a previous role as an accountant in a multinational there were employees working in countries they weren't being paid from. Once discovered by the group it took years and cost a fortune in penalties and interest and tax advisors to regularise them. Some did lose their job ultimately where there was no easy way to make it legal. Eg the company wasn't going to create a subsidiary in a country for a single employee.

Charles Babbage · 19-05-2021 4:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

In a previous role as an accountant in a multinational there were employees working in countries they weren't being paid from. Once discovered by the group it took years and cost a fortune in penalties and interest and tax advisors to regularise them. Some did lose their job ultimately where there was no easy way to make it legal. Eg the company wasn't going to create a subsidiary in a country for a single employee.

That is all fine and dandy. How many of these were living in N. Ireland?

Mrs OBumble · 19-05-2021 4:26pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Given me one example, other than to do with vehicles, in the last 100 years of an employer having a problem because of hiring a cross-border employee.

The problem isn't cross-border hiring. It's out-of-jurisdiction working.

Spending the day in a cafe across the border could be uncomfortable. Investigate ROI based office hubs which you can work from instead.

(This is just one of many challenges with shifting responsibility for provision of office space from employers to employees AKA work from "home".)

19-05-2021 4:34pm

Snugbugrug28 wrote: »

I think you're tax resident in the north so they would have to arrange for tax to be paid there etc. Probably an unholy mess for an employer.

If you cross the border 183 days in a year you can be tax resident in the south and ordinary resident in the north. Technically you could carry on as if you are based in the south, I don't see the problem. But don't get an ISA account

DmanDmythDledge wrote: »

Might be more of an employment law question - not sure if they can not give you the job based on that reason but I wouldn't be an expert in that area. From their pov, I would imagine they don't want the hassle of potentially applying UK payroll/PAYE taxes.

he would be taxed on Irish income by Irish revenue and not the UK as per the various tax agreements and treaties.

The one issue I see is the the wfh aspect. Working from home would mean accessing the database, outside the EU. Gdpr has an entire section on that.

That's the only one I can see, plenty of people crossing the border to work on both sides

Jim2007 · 19-05-2021 4:56pm

onrail wrote: »

They've come back saying this wouldn't be acceptable - I would have to be residing in the ROI tax juristiction.

It would probably be a good idea to seek more information on their objections, as taxation is only one aspect and in many ways it's the easier one, because it is codified and can be dealt with.

In the past when I have spoken with legal departments about this, their main concern is around the employer's ability to control the employee from a legal point of view. Say for instance if you had some proprietary information belong to the company and they needed to get an injunction to prevent you disclosing it, it would have to be done in two jurisdictions as would any action against the publishers etc.... when employers hear this kind of stuff they usually go for the easy option and just say no.

onrail · 20-05-2021 8:38am

Deleted User wrote: »

Edit: I think your personal tax compliance won't be a problem- you seem to have a grasp on it.

My concern here is that I'd be submitting my UK tax return with documents containing my ROI address. Seems like it could be a nightmare.

LawBoy2018 · 20-05-2021 12:44pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Wales is different. An Employer couldn't discriminate against an employee who lives in NI. E.g. if you lived and worked in Dundalk for a company but then moved house to Newry, would your employer be entitled to fire you for that?

It's not about where he lives, it's about where he works. The OP's address is only relevant in this instance because he will be working from home in another jurisdiction.

Buddy Bubs · 20-05-2021 2:41pm

We have an issue in work now that might be part of your employers reservations. Dublin based company, with offices in the other cities. Q department manager who has been working from home 15 mins away from office but available to come in when needed wants to move home to Waterford and work from home full time.
Issue is now the precedent of allowing someone to fully transition to a permanent work from home situation. For everyone that thinks they do a great job from home, there are challenges from a management point of view. IT infrastructure for one, and for a manager of people can he/she be available face to face if needed. Offices aren't fully automated, nor are IT systems. Needs hands on sometimes.

What if the financial controller then decides she wants to move down the country....she could do most of her duties yes but someone in the office picking up the slack for duties she can't perform.
Hard to say no after a precedent of another manager working from home

LawBoy2018 · 20-05-2021 6:41pm

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

We have an issue in work now that might be part of your employers reservations. Dublin based company, with offices in the other cities. Q department manager who has been working from home 15 mins away from office but available to come in when needed wants to move home to Waterford and work from home full time.
Issue is now the precedent of allowing someone to fully transition to a permanent work from home situation. For everyone that thinks they do a great job from home, there are challenges from a management point of view. IT infrastructure for one, and for a manager of people can he/she be available face to face if needed. Offices aren't fully automated, nor are IT systems. Needs hands on sometimes.

What if the financial controller then decides she wants to move down the country....she could do most of her duties yes but someone in the office picking up the slack for duties she can't perform.
Hard to say no after a precedent of another manager working from home

The obvious solution would be to include some sort of caveat re in-office attendance when necessary.

La la lopsy · 22-05-2021 11:58am

It’s a contract position, you’ve asked, they’ve said no. You mess them around after starting by doing what they told you they didn’t want my guess would be your contract won’t be renewed

Residing in Northern Ireland - potential employer not happy

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