The Middle Distance Thread

pconn062 · 10-02-2014 12:29am

One thing I was querying about and I thought it might be interesting to discuss here is quality work at race pace and how much to do. For example, if you are doing 1500m pace work I've read that you should limit the amount of quality work to 2-2.5k, which seems a little low to me (10x400m is a pretty standard mile workout and involves 4k of quality work). So how do you decide how much is enough for 800/1500/3000m work? Curious to hear peoples opinions.

oldrunner · 10-02-2014 2:00pm

Joe Gough ran an o60s 800m world record yesterday in the Leinster Indoors in 2:14.06 (with me as the accidental pacemaker).

dna_leri · 10-02-2014 2:10pm

oldrunner wrote: »

Joe Gough ran an o60s 800m world record yesterday in the Leinster Indoors in 2:14.06 (with me as the accidental pacemaker).

Nice going. Did you go under 2:15 yourself ?

oldrunner · 10-02-2014 2:12pm

Should be - results weren't available yesterday but I was only 2 or 3 steps back.

dna_leri · 10-02-2014 2:21pm

pconn062 wrote: »

One thing I was querying about and I thought it might be interesting to discuss here is quality work at race pace and how much to do. For example, if you are doing 1500m pace work I've read that you should limit the amount of quality work to 2-2.5k, which seems a little low to me (10x400m is a pretty standard mile workout and involves 4k of quality work). So how do you decide how much is enough for 800/1500/3000m work? Curious to hear peoples opinions.

Definitely 2-2.5K at 1500 pace is low.
It would not be unreasonable to do that at 800m pace, with something like 10-12x200.
It really will depend on your overall level of fitness and what recoveries you take.
I think you have to be a bit flexible in a session like that too if you have not done it before.
I remember planning a 10x400 @ 1500 pace on a hot day last summer (seems a distant memory now) but with tired legs I was fading on the 8th one so cut it short rather than do them slower.
I think Daniels has a formula for % of total mileage to be done at certain paces and that's probably the right way to approach it but then customise for the individual.

ecoli · 10-02-2014 4:06pm

pconn062 wrote: »

One thing I was querying about and I thought it might be interesting to discuss here is quality work at race pace and how much to do. For example, if you are doing 1500m pace work I've read that you should limit the amount of quality work to 2-2.5k, which seems a little low to me (10x400m is a pretty standard mile workout and involves 4k of quality work). So how do you decide how much is enough for 800/1500/3000m work? Curious to hear peoples opinions.

I would say general rule of thumb would be as

800m - roughly double distance (i.e 1600)
1500m - Roughly treble distance
3000m - slightly above double

I think this sort of workload is achieveable to get best benefits provided the recoveries is appropriate. I am a big fan of running sets when it comes to middle distance work.

Taking the classic 10-12 x 400m @ 1500m pace normally run with recoveries of anything from 60-90 second recovery (depending on the time of season and the coach) for me I would prefer to break this up into sets with very short recovery in sets and longer recovery in between sets.

So 12x400m off 60-75 then becomes 3x4x400 with 45-60 sec between reps and 3-5 min between sets. This for me provides a more specific stimulus as you are effectively running race pace for 1600m off very short recoveries but by able to still get the required volume in for the aerobic gains. Your body gets more efficient at running at race pace as you are maintaining race pace in a more comfortable state (when I say comfortable I mean as close to race conditions as possible within training) as opposed to hanging on for the last few reps of a straight 10-12 reps

Larry Brent · 10-02-2014 5:01pm

10 x 400 at 1500 pace is a very hard session for me, probably too hard, takes too much out of me. But I know it’s a classic that many people like.

Just looking over my training from last year. Ran an April marathon, and decided to get back to the track. Ran 4:30 3 times about 5 years ago, so was keen to try to beat that, but had done very little short distance racing since. Started in May, race was early July. Training was usually Tues and Saturday, was doing about 40-50m a week.

Kicked off with a couple of races to see where I was and then got down to some sessions.

7 weeks out
1m race 5:04. a bit disappointed not to get under 5, but had no speed at all, no turnover and no power output. Followed up with 15min tempo Salazaar style!!

6 weeks out
Mon - 3000m race 9:58. Happy with this, job done, splits 3:18/3:24/3:16.

Sat - 1200 @ 5k, 2x600 @ 3k, 2x400 @ 1500, 5x200 fast all off 90s = 4:05/1:56/1:56/75/73, fekt hamstring 1st 200 so bailed there.

5 weeks to go
Tues
5x500 @ 1500 off 2mins, 8x150 fast = 95/94/93/92/92

Sat - 5min pickup during w/u (coach does this a fair bit, 5mins tempo towards the end of the warm up),
5x300 @ 1500 off 2mins = 53/52/52/52/51, 5mins rest,
5x200 @ 800 off 2mins = 35/33/34/33/32, 5mins rest
fast 400 (‘feel like the 2nd 400 in an 800 race’ we were instructed) = 66
4x150 accelerations

4 weeks to go
Tweaked hamstring during drills on Tuesday, so no sessions this week.

3 weeks to go
Tues - 12x400 2x2 relay (i.e. you do 400, then your similar level partner does 400 while you recover, then you go again and so on) = 80/77/76/77/76/75/76/76/75/77/74/73
4x100m strides

Sat
Missed session, was away

2 weeks to go

Tues
3x400 off 90s = 73/71/70, 4mins rest
4x800 off 2mins = 2:37/2:37/2:38/2:35
6x100m strides

Sat
10x400 off 60s = 78/77/77/78/78/77/78/78/78/79, was about 35 degrees

1 week to go
Tues
5x800 off 2mins = 2:37/2:40/2:38/2:38/2:37
6x100m strdies

Fri - 8k race, 29:07 (probably shouldn’t have done this but it was a race in a 6 race series with a good money prize that I was in a battle to win my age group)

Race week
Tues
2 x (400 @ 1500, 300 @ 800, 200 @ 95% whatever that means). 2mins between reps, 4 mins between sets = 71/50/32, 69/51/32
4x100m strides

Fri
Race
4:28, 2s PB. Splits 72/72/71/53. Delighted with this. Showed that with a good base (from marathon training) and a small bit of faster work I could run well, but that there was a lot of room for improvement. A few build up races would have helped a lot (I just couldn’t get to any the way things worked out and there were no more after this one). I knew from training that I was getting used to 72s a lap, but any time I had tried anything faster (not often but the odd sub 70 400 or 50/51 300) I was really, really struggling. So I knew I had to go off steady enough, a big gap built up and I had to work very hard 3rd lap to try to make it up (that was the plan anyhow). Legs failed me at 80m to go and just about managed to hold it together. A few build up races, a little bit of sharpening work at the faster paces and hopefully I’ll be able to go out with the leaders (seeded races, everyone in the race will have a SB, seed time within 2secs of each other) the next time and race it rather than time trial it. Roll on the summer.

ecoli · 10-02-2014 5:24pm

Interesting to see how you laid things out Larry after Marathon considering this will be my approach also. I noticed a few hamstring tweaks in the early weeks, did you do any transition work and what is your strength and conditioning work like or do you do any?

I do agree regardig more build up races always find you are talking 4-5 races before you fully get going in any middle distance season

Larry Brent · 10-02-2014 7:39pm

ecoli wrote: »

did you do any transition work

No, I missed all the preparatory work with the April marathon. Compact season where I am - 1st race early May, last race early July. So I just dove in and had a bit of fun with it. This year I will be more prepared. Doing a kind of HM block till early March even though I probably won’t even race one. Then after a small break into track preparation work, with a few races in May/June to get ready for the big one in July. Just doing 2 workouts, Thurs and Sunday. Thursday is a 3 week cycle of:

1) 20-30mins at 10m-HM effort
2) hill session
3) 60-80mins steady/marathon effort.

After this we go to an indoor track where we do either:

1) Texan strides (10x150 @ 800/1500 pace off 150 jog in 50-60s)
2) 10x200 off 60s stand (start at 3000m pace, work down to 800)
3) 200/300/400/300/200 cut downs (build up on the 200 and 300 so that you’re ready for the 400 @ 1500 pace, then the 300 and 200 progressively faster). I’m really enjoying these, even after the preceding work, it’s nice to get the legs going.

Sunday then is marathon type long runs.

ecoli wrote: »

strength and conditioning work like or do you do any?

I injured my hamstring on New Years eve 2012. That hampered my marathon build, so I started working on some S and C then. I wasn’t too good at doing it consistently enough, so this year I have made a better effort. I have some weights in my basement and do the following 3 times a week (or just twice if I feel the Thursday night faster stuff in the legs):

Squats
Deadlifts
Super Achilles Strengthener
Single Leg Deadlift
Plyo Intro - hopping

As the weeks go on, I’ll graduate to more running specific weights like the stuff in the Galen Rupp Workout of the Week, or the New Zealand brothers weight training in Kenya clip (basically incorporating running movements whilst ding the weights) and start doing more plyometric work. I was doing push ups and chin ups also, but knocked these on the head due to time constraints for now. Wouldn’t be a fan of typical ‘core’ exercises.

pconn062 · 22-02-2014 11:09pm

Thought this might be of interest to some.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5068941

ecoli · 23-02-2014 12:28pm

ecoli wrote: »

Looking at your race report I still reckon you have a 2.10-2.12 in you. Personally I think you might be running your first 200 a little too hard given that you are relying on your ability over shorter distances.

Generally strength based runners tend to go hard from the gun while more speed based runners aim to try and wind it up in the second half of the race. Running 31-32 opening is hard and is gonna to be very difficult for you to maintain and could even negate the effect of a kick (Either by not having one or slowing too much in the 3/4 that it cancels out the time made with winding it up) I reckon your speed would stand to you more by going out in 33-34 pace and trying to up it from there (thats still close PB pace or quicker)

(Just an opinion)

dna_leri wrote: »

I would disagree with 800m strategy for 400m runners. Speed based runners will not have the aerobic strength to wind it up in the 2nd half. A 64-65s opening lap will be relatively easy for a 55s 400m guy and could still do a 68 2nd lap. Whereas a distance runner should go closer to even splits since he has the strength to finish without slowing down as much as the sprinter.

Following on from a discussion the was starting in the training logs I thought it made sense to move it here.

While I would agree with regards the strength runner aiming to even splits I think a more 200-400 speed based runner aiming to run 800 probably won't five a 65 as relatively easy as it should be and as a result lose a significant amount of time in the 400-600m split. In terms of winding it up in the second half I think with a conservative first lap they still should be able to manage a negative split. For me running a harder first lap will cause an aerobically weak athlete to wilt more significantly event if it is significantly slower than 400m capability, to the point where the first lap really does need to feel like a jog for the athlete.

Looking at the likes of Billy Ryan, Niall Tuohy and internationally Borzakovskiy I have often found that some of their best races (in terms of times not just tactical affairs for the win) have been at the result of such tactics.

pconn062 · 23-02-2014 1:00pm

I've often heard it said that there's no such thing as a true 400/800m runner, that the training required for both events is so differing to ever be truly successful at both events. Even trying to run reasonably decent times for 800m for a 400m runner seems a little pointless, other than for social reasons.

ecoli · 23-02-2014 1:18pm

pconn062 wrote: »

I've often heard it said that there's no such thing as a true 400/800m runner, that the training required for both events is so differing to ever be truly successful at both events. Even trying to run reasonably decent times for 800m for a 400m runner seems a little pointless, other than for social reasons.

One word..... Juantorena

. I think the term is more based around a way of categorizing the type of runner (Speed based or endurance based). You don't have to look far to see this type of categorizations - English (Speed based) Robinson (Strength based), Rudisha (Speed), Kaki (Strength)

I would disagree with the idea of over distance for a 400m runner (and most runners in general) being pointless and think that it serves a great purpose in boosting the likes of lactic tolerance and other physiological stimulii (under distance) as well as aerobic capacity (Over distance)

This country doesn't have much of this tradition (Big Red Dave Mac being one example) but in the US 400/800m doubles are fairly common at high school and collegiate level

dna_leri · 23-02-2014 10:46pm

Juantorena - for those of you too young to remember:

Split 50.85 on way to 1:43.50 gold
44.26 in 400m a few days later
So first lap was 115% of 400m time.
For a 55s 400m runner, 115% would be a 63s opener.

I rest my case.

ecoli · 24-02-2014 8:16pm

dna_leri wrote: »

Juantorena - for those of you too young to remember:

Split 50.85 on way to 1:43.50 gold
44.26 in 400m a few days later
So first lap was 115% of 400m time.
For a 55s 400m runner, 115% would be a 63s opener.

I rest my case.

Point taken. I have had a closer look at splits and there would be a good bit more evidence to back up your approach (the 400-600 split usually being the determining factor moreso than the 400 splits)

ecoli · 06-03-2014 11:04pm

Don't like to see this thread fall as low as it is. How is everyone's training going? After packing in the marathon training in early due to circumstances (although looking at my result from the weekend was a little premature but how in ever) I have transitioned back to 10k style work for the next 8 weeks with slowly incorporating a little bit more paced stuff after which plan to give track a decent go so it could be a nice old fashioned periodized approach.

Next 8 weeks are going to be hills, tempos/ cruise intervals, and a 5k paced session every second week. Proper track work will start early may.

Interested to hear where people are in there training. A post indoor season aerobic phase or transitioning out of base/strength training at this stage?

Timmaay · 06-03-2014 11:38pm

Back into more of a distance focus here for the next few weeks also, after my very short lived indoor season (one 800 race ha). Will do afew 5k road races, and hopefully the raheny road relays, maybe a track 3k if I find one.

dna_leri · 06-03-2014 11:43pm

ecoli wrote: »

Don't like to see this thread fall as low as it is. How is everyone's training going?

...

Interested to hear where people are in there training. A post indoor season aerobic phase or transitioning out of base/strength training at this stage?

After a very short indoor season, I'm building a bigger base.
Average mileage for last 4 weeks is higher than my peak mileage last year and looking good for this week. Trying to keep in touch with speed as well. Will do a 5K this weekend as a tester, and again in early May.

I'll be in no hurry to start competing on track - looking to peak late in August.

ecoli · 06-03-2014 11:44pm

Timmaay wrote: »

Back into more of a distance focus here for the next few weeks also, after my very short lived indoor season (one 800 race ha). Will do afew 5k road races, and hopefully the raheny road relays, maybe a track 3k if I find one.

Probably my next race to. Was looking at the BHAA 10k th day before but somehow I can't see me getting away with that if needed for a team.

Usually the gradeds kick off a week or two after that (though no sign of the booklet yet this year)

dna_leri · 06-03-2014 11:44pm

Timmaay wrote: »

Back into more of a distance focus here for the next few weeks also, after my very short lived indoor season (one 800 race ha). Will do afew 5k road races, and hopefully the raheny road relays, maybe a track 3k if I find one.

snap

pconn062 · 07-03-2014 12:26am

Just trying to get back after a bit of a hamstring injury, only missed about 8 days in total and slowly trying to get back into it now (although the issue is not yet fully resolved so no sessions for a few weeks, still not sure if I can jog yet! :eek:). Up until then I was going well, even if the mileage was a bit lower than I would have liked. Did a good few solid weeks of tempo work and then a few weeks of good 5k work, with a few 200's after each session for turnover work. The injury kind of threw my plan out of the window a bit but if I could get back to 5k work in the next 3-4 weeks I should be able to save my season. I'm hoping to peak a bit earlier this year, maybe mid-July or so and have all my racing done by the end of July as I'm going to Germany for a few weeks in August and won't be doing any racing.

oldrunner · 07-03-2014 10:19am

Training for the 1500 in the World Indoor Masters in Budapest at the end of March. First time trying this but bad year for it as I'm 54 in May. Just looking for experience this year as the World Outdoors are in Lyon next August a couple of months after I move up an age category.
Of course, sod's law - popped a hamstring last Tuesday in 3x2x600 session on the fifth 600. Only a mild strain and hope to be back jogging tomorrow or Sunday.

RayCun · 07-03-2014 10:49am

ecoli wrote: »

Usually the gradeds kick off a week or two after that (though no sign of the booklet yet this year)

Don't know the details, but the first meet is pencilled in for April 29th (Santry)

Sacksian · 07-03-2014 11:53am

Have kept checking back to this thread but not much to share as I'm just back from injury (hopefully) this week. Sometimes, it's hard to tell if you're recovered until you're running a few weeks but all of the signs are good - should be up to running 5 days a week this week and next. Still feels like I'm running out of time to be as fit as I was hoping to be for the start of the season. Last year, I missed from March until May with the same injury so at least the timing is slightly better this year. I've been roped into doing a half-marathon in Germany in May, which I'm telling myself will help me build a base and some strength ahead of the track season.

If I can stay fit, the first target is the ALSAA 3000m on 25th March - anything around 9:45 will be fine. Probably won't make the club teams for the Road Relays, so I'll hopefully do the ALSAA mile on April 15th and aim for 4:48 or so.

I've only run one but the standard doesn't seem to be incredibly high at the ALSAA races - it's a chance to do a track race out of season more than anything else (if anyone's looking for one!). I think if the numbers are large enough, they'll also put on a fast and slow race.

Can't wait for the Graded series to start. Thoughts on spikes from 800m +??

Last year, I was wearing cross-country shoes with track spikes. This year, I've got these: http://themiddlemiles.blogspot.ie/2013/04/gear-review-brooks-wire-2.html

They're much lighter so looking forward to seeing what impact the weight loss has.

ecoli · 07-03-2014 12:48pm

Sacksian wrote: »

If I can stay fit, the first target is the ALSAA 3000m on 25th March - anything around 9:45 will be fine. Probably won't make the club teams for the Road Relays, so I'll hopefully do the ALSAA mile on April 15th and aim for 4:48 or so.

I've only run one but the standard doesn't seem to be incredibly high at the ALSAA races - it's a chance to do a track race out of season more than anything else (if anyone's looking for one!). I think if the numbers are large enough, they'll also put on a fast and slow race.

Can't wait for the Graded series to start. Thoughts on spikes from 800m +??

Last year, I was wearing cross-country shoes with track spikes. This year, I've got these: http://themiddlemiles.blogspot.ie/2013/04/gear-review-brooks-wire-2.html

They're much lighter so looking forward to seeing what impact the weight loss has.

Forgot to check the ALSAA listings. Might not be a bad idea to throw that in as an early season baseline before I start sessions (bar a few 200s for turnover but other than that nothing much faster than 5k/10k pace in training

In terms of of spikes I use these for track races up to 3k

For the longer distances I generally wear flats (been so long since I have ran a 5k on track though that I can't remember if I wore spikes or flats)

I was looking at these for the longer distance on track though

pconn062 · 20-03-2014 1:51pm

Another bump! How is everyone getting on? The Dublin Graded Meets dates have been announced so it means it's getting close to track season! Are there similar events on other parts of the country?

How's the training going, have you started faster work yet? Myself, I'm just getting back from a hamstring injury, started back jogging two weeks ago and I did my first session last night, a few 600's and k's at 5k pace. Hoping to start two sessions a week from next week, a Vo2 max session and alternating a tempo/hill session. Not going to start faster race pace work for a few more weeks.

Stazza · 20-03-2014 3:03pm

pconn062 wrote: »

Another bump! How is everyone getting on? The Dublin Graded Meets dates have been announced so it means it's getting close to track season! Are there similar events on other parts of the country?

How's the training going, have you started faster work yet? Myself, I'm just getting back from a hamstring injury, started back jogging two weeks ago and I did my first session last night, a few 600's and k's at 5k pace. Hoping to start two sessions a week from next week, a Vo2 max session and alternating a tempo/hill session. Not going to start faster race pace work for a few more weeks.

Good to see that you're back on the mend.

After my cheeky little session of 20x300m and discovering that I might have a bit lot more speed than I first thought, I'm thinking about a completely different approach and my goals.

Might attack the 1500m up until the end of August and then see if I can carry the speed through into some Autumn/early winter 5ks before having a break in December.

And then next year, at the ripe old age of 50, I might have a crack at the World Pensioners' Champs in Lyon...:D

RuinedEye · 20-03-2014 3:59pm

pconn062 wrote: »

Another bump! How is everyone getting on? The Dublin Graded Meets dates have been announced so it means it's getting close to track season! Are there similar events on other parts of the country?

How's the training going, have you started faster work yet? Myself, I'm just getting back from a hamstring injury, started back jogging two weeks ago and I did my first session last night, a few 600's and k's at 5k pace. Hoping to start two sessions a week from next week, a Vo2 max session and alternating a tempo/hill session. Not going to start faster race pace work for a few more weeks.

All going well now, getting stuck into the base at the moment more long stuff 1km's-mile sessions with a few pyramid sessions put in.
There is a Leevale meet on the 5th April, very early but doing it to see where I am and what work needs to be done in the coming months.
Where would I find info on the Graded Meets?

pconn062 · 20-03-2014 4:10pm

RuinedEye wrote: »

All going well now, getting stuck into the base at the moment more long stuff 1km's-mile sessions with a few pyramid sessions put in.
There is a Leevale meet on the 5th April, very early but doing it to see where I am and what work needs to be done in the coming months.
Where would I find info on the Graded Meets?

Full programme for Graded Meets available here:

http://www.dublinathletics.com/2014-Fixtures/dublin-athletic-board-graded-track-field-programme-2014.html

Timmaay · 20-03-2014 11:32pm

Anyone interested in getting a table, or googledocs or something with a calender of as many track races in Ireland over the summer? Can be hard to keep tabs of what is on when, we have the likes of runireland for road races, but nothing really for the track!

Anyways, on pconns question, training largely stalled again ha, I was away skiing last week, and brought home a hoor of a chest infection, only just over that now. Anyways, once I'm back fully I'll be concentrating on the longer stuff for early in the season, I've one or two 3ks and 5ks targeted in mid April. I'll still be doing 1500m sessions however, and the aim is to race myself into shape in the early track season in May, I'll happily do as many track races as I can over that month, hopefully afew 800s by the end of the month. Then in June regroup again, give the legs and head abit of a break, before pushing on again during July. Should be plenty of IMCs, graded meets, and then of course Leinsters, nationals and the national league thrown in! Hmm I'll keep tabs on the actual number of races I do this summer, last two years I must have done 15 or so each summer.

Sacksian · 21-03-2014 10:41am

I'm in the liminal state between injured and uninjured; pretty sure I'm not injured but there's definitely not not something a little bit off. In the grand tradition of optimistic injury rehabilitation, I'm hoping to run it off. I wasn't able to run much in December, January and February, so I didn't, but now I seem to be able to. It's now no more than a niggle in my hip but I've lost a lot of fitness.

Started back training with a session of 600s (somewhere between mile and 3k pace) last week and some steady Khyber repeats (the full length) the weekend before last and probably more of the same this weekend. The 600s were good, the Khyber repeats were depressing. The targets I laid out at the start of this thread are looking a bit remote (certainly 5k and 3k anyway).

Here are the Irish Milers' Club dates from their website:

May Sat 10th - Greystones
May Sat 31st - Schools Tullamore
June Sat 14th - Crusaders, Irishtown
July Fri 11th - Morton Meet, Santry

They also say there will be one more race announced.

I had a look at the results and I'd almost definitely be towards the back of their slowest races. But it's a few extra races, if nothing else. Can anyone join??

Re: track calendar - you could put together a specific track race thread like the Road Race calendar in the Events forum on Boards?

pconn062 · 21-03-2014 5:35pm

I will try and throw a bit of a calender together over the weekend. It won't be a fancy google doc or anything like because I'm not very tech savvy but even a list of events that could be accessed easily would help.

Opinions on early season races, I'm hoping to have 1500m as my main event but was thinking of a few 800's or even 3,000's at the start of the season just to get back into it. Would this be a good idea or would it be better to get straight into 1500's to get familiar with the pacing and tactics?

dna_leri · 21-03-2014 9:22pm

pconn062 wrote: »

I will try and throw a bit of a calender together over the weekend. It won't be a fancy google doc or anything like because I'm not very tech savvy but even a list of events that could be accessed easily would help.

Opinions on early season races, I'm hoping to have 1500m as my main event but was thinking of a few 800's or even 3,000's at the start of the season just to get back into it. Would this be a good idea or would it be better to get straight into 1500's to get familiar with the pacing and tactics?

I'd say one over and one under distance but majority of races should be at target distance. If in doubt stick with target distance to gain pace and tactic experience.

KielyUnusual · 21-03-2014 9:37pm

This year is going to be the first one where I focus on the middle distance events. 1500 and the mile will be the target distances.

I've been on and off injured since the start of the year but ran in Ballycotton two weeks ago and have felt good ever since.

A typical week now would include a Tuesday track session (12 X 400, 6 X 800, 8 X 600 or similar), a Thursday tempo session on grass (3 X 10mins, pyramid session or the likes) and a Saturday Hill Session or Long Repeats. The hill session is 5 hilly mile repeats in Phoenix Park or the long repeat is 3 X 2.5k on a flat grassy surface. I also do some lunchtime runs (5 miles) and one long run (14-15 miles).

The coach will be introducing us to a specific 1500m program over the next few weeks so things will change up then. I'll post up information on it once I find out. The coach himself was a high level 1500m runner back in his day so would know his stuff.

One question here. Would any of you do a long run of 12 miles + as part of your training? I would like to keep this up as it fits well in to my weekly schedule and is a big time saver as I have a long commute to work. At the moment I do it on Wednesday, which is in between the Tuesday track session and the Thursday session and I don't think it is ideal. Maybe the Monday might be better?

KielyUnusual · 21-03-2014 9:39pm

pconn062 wrote: »

I will try and throw a bit of a calender together over the weekend. It won't be a fancy google doc or anything like because I'm not very tech savvy but even a list of events that could be accessed easily would help.

Opinions on early season races, I'm hoping to have 1500m as my main event but was thinking of a few 800's or even 3,000's at the start of the season just to get back into it. Would this be a good idea or would it be better to get straight into 1500's to get familiar with the pacing and tactics?

I've no personal experience on this but the coach at the club (very good 1500m runner) is going to have us do a 3000 and an 800 at the start of the season to get in to it so at least one voice of experience would deem it worthwhile.

pconn062 · 21-03-2014 9:55pm

KielyUnusual wrote: »

This year is going to be the first one where I focus on the middle distance events. 1500 and the mile will be the target distances.

I've been on and off injured since the start of the year but ran in Ballycotton two weeks ago and have felt good ever since.

A typical week now would include a Tuesday track session (12 X 400, 6 X 800, 8 X 600 or similar), a Thursday tempo session on grass (3 X 10mins, pyramid session or the likes) and a Saturday Hill Session or Long Repeats. The hill session is 5 hilly mile repeats in Phoenix Park or the long repeat is 3 X 2.5k on a flat grassy surface. I also do some lunchtime runs (5 miles) and one long run (14-15 miles).

The coach will be introducing us to a specific 1500m program over the next few weeks so things will change up then. I'll post up information on it once I find out. The coach himself was a high level 1500m runner back in his day so would know his stuff.

One question here. Would any of you do a long run of 12 miles + as part of your training? I would like to keep this up as it fits well in to my weekly schedule and is a big time saver as I have a long commute to work. At the moment I do it on Wednesday, which is in between the Tuesday track session and the Thursday session and I don't think it is ideal. Maybe the Monday might be better?

I think a long run is still important for the 1500m/mile. The 1500m as an event is about 50% aerobic/50% anaerobic so it's really important to have a well developed aerobic system. 12 miles is probably loads though. Could you do the long run on a Sunday or is that your day off? In between the Tuesday and Thursday is less than ideal and even a Monday isn't great as you have three hard session in four days.

KielyUnusual · 21-03-2014 10:07pm

pconn062 wrote: »

I think a long run is still important for the 1500m/mile. The 1500m as an event is about 50% aerobic/50% anaerobic so it's really important to have a well developed aerobic system. 12 miles is probably loads though. Could you do the long run on a Sunday or is that your day off? In between the Tuesday and Thursday is less than ideal and even a Monday isn't great as you have three hard session in four days.

I know Sunday would be ideal but I really would like to fit the long run in as part of the commute home. It takes me as long to run home as it does to get the train so it is a huge time saver. Thursday is the easiest of the sessions so Wednesday probably does make the most sense. I'll see how things go for a while anyway and if it's affecting the sessions, I'll bite the bullet and switch it to the Sunday.

Stazza · 21-03-2014 10:42pm

KielyUnusual wrote: »

I know Sunday would be ideal but I really would like to fit the long run in as part of the commute home. It takes me as long to run home as it does to get the train so it is a huge time saver. Thursday is the easiest of the sessions so Wednesday probably does make the most sense. I'll see how things go for a while anyway and if it's affecting the sessions, I'll bite the bullet and switch it to the Sunday.

Would it be possible to incl Thursday's session in your long run - drop-out the 3x10mins/pyramids during the run. This way you get in a MLR and a session.

Edit:
Be careful not to cram too much in the week. You could spread the load over 10 days/2weeks. Remember, you don't get better in the sessions - it's during the recovery that the adaptations take place. If you over stress the system, you'll gradually grind it down and end up stale/injured.

KielyUnusual · 21-03-2014 11:07pm

Stazza wrote: »

Would it be possible to incl Thursday's session in your long run - drop-out the 3x10mins/pyramids during the run. This way you get in a MLR and a session.

Edit:
Be careful not to cram too much in the week. You could spread the load over 10 days/2weeks. Remember, you don't get better in the sessions - it's during the recovery that the adaptations take place. If you over stress the system, you'll gradually grind it down and end up stale/injured.

That could be a good idea. Part of me thinks that 3 sessions in the week might be a bit too much, even if one of them is taken a little easier i.e. the Thursday tempo. A long run with some faster sections on the Thursday might be ideal. I'm even plotting out some ideal sections for the faster stuff in my head as I type. Can always do the odd club session on the Thursday and fit in the longer run on the Sunday where appropriate. There is a tendency to compartmentalise everything in to the week because its easier to plan but a bit of flexibility never goes too far astray.

Timmaay · 21-03-2014 11:53pm

Stazza wrote: »

Edit:
Be careful not to cram too much in the week. You could spread the load over 10 days/2weeks. Remember, you don't get better in the sessions - it's during the recovery that the adaptations take place. If you over stress the system, you'll gradually grind it down and end up stale/injured.

I'd tend to agree, during the off season your LSR, and plenty of miles are very important for building up strength, however during the track season itself I personally rarely bother with any long runs, likes of over 50/60mins. I do actually sometimes do 3 sessions a week, however they certainly wouldn't all hard tough sessions, maybe one hard sessions, one easier session where you focus on form/pacing, and then likes of tempo, or much more common for me, my 3rd session is a race.

Timmaay · 21-03-2014 11:56pm

pconn062 wrote: »

I think a long run is still important for the 1500m/mile. The 1500m as an event is about 50% aerobic/50% anaerobic so it's really important to have a well developed aerobic system.

I would have thought its much much more than 50% aerobic, maybe 80/90% aerobic??? I would have said 400m is about a 50:50 split! However that doesn't change my opinion that most your LSRs are to be done in the off season!

pconn062 · 22-03-2014 12:00am

Timmaay wrote: »

I would have thought its much much more than 50% aerobic, maybe 80/90% aerobic??? I would have said 400m is about a 50:50 split! However that doesn't change my opinion that most your LSRs are to be done in the off season!

I'm just going by the info in this document here:

http://runstrong.me/images/Training%20CliffsNotes.pdf

As far as I'm aware the 400m is primarily an anaerobic event, hence the lack on aerobic training by a lot of 400m runners. I agree that you could cut back on the LSR's in the race part of your season, but at this time of year and in the early part of the racing season I think they are important. However I would max out at 10-12 miles, and probably less than that during the competitive phase.

Timmaay · 22-03-2014 12:05am

pconn062 wrote: »

I agree that you could cut back on the LSR's in the race part of your season, but at this time of year and in the early part of the racing season I think they are important. However I would max out at 10-12 miles, and probably less than that during the competitive phase.

Ok giving my pathetic off season, with very few LSR I certainly wont argue this ha, I'll be up against it but really do need to push up the miles during most of April!

KielyUnusual · 22-03-2014 10:29am

With the transition to track fairy almost complete, I may as well make the final step.

What spikes do people wear/would reccommend for 1500m/mile distance?

Can't stay using my XC spikes forever.

Timmaay · 22-03-2014 11:12am

KielyUnusual wrote: »

With the transition to track fairy almost complete, I may as well make the final step.

What spikes do people wear/would reccommend for 1500m/mile distance?

Can't stay using my XC spikes forever.

Get a pair of nike victories or some other super lightweight spikes, and just them just for races and the od training session before a race. They might not give ya much direct weight benefit ha, but your feet will feel light as a feathers, which should give ya abit of a phycology boost ha.

Or ya could keep wearing the mucky xc spikes, and intimidate the opposition, they'll think your a nobody doing your 1st track race ha.

KielyUnusual · 23-03-2014 12:03am

Timmaay wrote: »

Get a pair of nike victories or some other super lightweight spikes, and just them just for races and the od training session before a race. They might not give ya much direct weight benefit ha, but your feet will feel light as a feathers, which should give ya abit of a phycology boost ha.

Or ya could keep wearing the mucky xc spikes, and intimidate the opposition, they'll think your a nobody doing your 1st track race ha.

It's not too far from the truth Timmaay.

Thanks for the advice. I'll call in to AK after work this week and give them a try.

pconn062 · 23-03-2014 12:26am

KielyUnusual wrote: »

It's not too far from the truth Timmaay.

Thanks for the advice. I'll call in to AK after work this week and give them a try.

Make sure you get them in as flash a colour as you can, nobody will take you serious if you turn up in a grey pair of spikes, the more luminous the better! By all rights your spikes should cause some sort of retinal damage!

pa4 · 23-03-2014 2:48pm

KielyUnusual wrote: »

With the transition to track fairy almost complete, I may as well make the final step.

What spikes do people wear/would reccommend for 1500m/mile distance?

Can't stay using my XC spikes forever.

I wear Nike Matumbos. They say their designed towards 5-10k but I find them great for the shorter distances too. Their as light as the Nike Victories and look cool too.

Timmaay · 23-03-2014 3:50pm

Timmaay wrote: »

Ok giving my pathetic off season, with very few LSR I certainly wont argue this ha, I'll be up against it but really do need to push up the miles during most of April!

Got dragged out on an 80min run today with a clubmate! (well was only 75mins for me, I took a 5mins break in it ha), anyways utterly shattered now ha, but just what I really need to get back fit soon!

Stazza · 23-03-2014 3:59pm

pa4 wrote: »

I wear Nike Matumbos. They say their designed towards 5-10k but I find them great for the shorter distances too. Their as light as the Nike Victories and look cool too.

Me too

The Middle Distance Thread

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