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Government announce major policy contradiction just to please LGBT

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    #2
    victor8600
    Registered Users Posts: 1,608 ✭✭✭victor8600


    Oh, something new, probably outrageous, and about LGBT. Let me get the popcorn. What is this this time about anyway?


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    #3
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Where does pleasing LGBT come in to it?


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    #4
    BDI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭BDI


    Can we not have a few hours rest from the gays to bury gay Byrne?


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    #5
    Bob Harris
    Registered Users Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭Bob Harris


    I'm gay and so is my wife!


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    #6
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,224 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    Better stock up on canned goods and fresh water op, this sounds like proper end of the world stuff

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



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    #7
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Josie Fancy Someone wrote: »
    Where does pleasing LGBT come in to it?

    "Regulations to allow same sex parents register both their names on their child's birth cert to be signed today"

    is the headline from the first link in the OP


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    #8
    Batty Boy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Batty Boy


    It's only five years ago that Joan Burton made it mandatory for father's to be named on the birth certificate


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    #9
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    whatever about the mother and same sex partner being on the birth cert, how does it work with two fathers? presumably neither of them have to actually be the biological father...?


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    #10
    beejee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    All this stuff, in general, is going to age like milk.

    All the backlash about the church will be replaced in the future with backlash about state-sanctioned buffoonery.

    Not to the same severity, but this kind of no-brain nonsense is a class action waiting to happen in years to come. And sure why not, it's not like anyone cares about reality anymore anyway :p


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    #11
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,626 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Batty Boy wrote: »
    https://www.thejournal.ie/simon-harris-lgbt-4877603-Nov2019/ From official government website https://www.birthsdeathsmarriages.ie/faqs/ Children need to know as much as possible about both their parents, so that they will have a good sense of their own identity and personal history. Having the father’s name on the child’s birth certificate helps to establish the child’s sense of identity as s/he grows up.

    Faulty premise since that doesn't seem to be the point of a birth cert. First a fathers name doesn't have to be on it in any case (afaik) and then up until a few years ago adopted children didn't even have the right to access their original birth cert and even now I think they can only get it with consent of the birth mother


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    #12
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    If there are two fathers names on the birth cert who decides whether or not the child can wear a Poppy


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    #13
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,224 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    Batty Boy you have started a discussion about this exact issue in 3 fora (AH, CA and Legal) so I know you're just dying to blow your outrage load but please do some (extremely basic) research into the topic.

    This applies only when both parents are female and the child is conceived through IVF in a clinic in Ireland - those are the ONLY circumstances this policy permits

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



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    #14
    corsav6
    Registered Users Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭corsav6


    Edgware wrote: »
    If there are two fathers names on the birth cert who decides whether or not the child can wear a Poppy

    Asking the real questions here


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    #15
    RiseToMe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭RiseToMe


    A birth cert has never been a record of genetics and never will be. In order to claim this they would require genetic testing prior to issuing a birth cert.

    Proof of this is the current legislation whereby if the mother is married to a man at the time of birth, he may be put on the birthcert as the father even if there is no biological relationship to the child. This is written in our legislation.

    Again, this is the current legislation as it stands. Birthcerts in this country are nothing to do with biology and never have been based on the legislation in place.


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    #16
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    RiseToMe wrote: »
    A birth cert has never been a record of genetics and never will be. In order to claim this they would require genetic testing prior to issuing a birth cert.

    Proof of this is the current legislation whereby if the mother is married to a man at the time of birth, he may be put on the birthcert as the father even if there is no biological relationship to the child. This is written in our legislation.

    Again, this is the current legislation as it stands. Birthcerts in this country are nothing to do with biology and never have been based on the legislation in place.
    Sorry, this just isn't correct.

    There isn't a genetic check, because it would be mad to ask every married woman and her husband for a blood sample every time they have a child. But the law is that the biological father is the person to be registered.

    In the case of a married woman, it is assumed that the biological father is her husband, unless this is contested.

    Other than that, the person named as father must consent to being named.

    If there's a dispute, the Courts may order who is named as father - if necessary, seeking a genetic assessment.
    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/separation_and_divorce/presumption_of_paternity.html

    If the alleged father disputes paternity, he may agree to a medical paternity test. If he doesn't agree to this, it is up to the court (usually the District Court) to decide on paternity.

    Where someone refuses to give a sample, the court can draw whatever conclusions it thinks proper from the refusal. For example, if the alleged father refused to give a sample, the court may take the view that he was afraid the tests would indicate he was the father. If the mother refused to give a sample, the court may take the view she was afraid the test may prove the named man was not the father.
    You'll appreciate, the context is one where you'd normally be protecting the rights of children faced with fathers trying to avoid their responsibilities.

    But its nonsense to say that birth certs have nothing to do biology. They are, absolutely, to do with biology.

    At least, up to this recent change allowing for someone in a same sex relationship, unconnected to the child by biology, to be named as a parent.


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    #17
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    A birth certificate should only record the biological parents in the sense of whose DNA the child is comprised of. Every child should have the right to know this, and any other situations (adoption, surrogacy, etc) should be provided for by means other than the actual birth certificate.


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    #18
    RiseToMe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭RiseToMe


    Balf wrote: »
    Sorry, this just isn't correct.

    There isn't a genetic check, because it would be mad to ask every married woman and her husband for a blood sample every time they have a child. But the law is that the biological father is the person to be registered.

    In the case of a married woman, it is assumed that the biological father is her husband, unless this is contested.

    Other than that, the person named as father must consent to being named.

    If there's a dispute, the Courts may order who is named as father - if necessary, seeking a genetic assessment. You'll appreciate, the context is one where you'd normally be protecting the rights of children faced with fathers trying to avoid their responsibilities.

    But its nonsense to say that birth certs have nothing to do biology. They are, absolutely, to do with biology.

    At least, up to this recent change allowing for someone in a same sex relationship, unconnected to the child by biology, to be named as a parent.

    To quote the current situation with regards to heterosexual couples in donor assisted reproduction:

    "At present, there is a legal presumption that the mothers husband is the father of a donor-conceived child even if the husband has no biological connection to the child"

    So no, the law is not infact that the biological father is to be named. In fact, it is quite the opposite.


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    #19
    blueshade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 428 ✭✭blueshade


    I've no problem with same sex couples or same sex couples adopting, somewhere along the line here it seems like the child has stopped being the main concern and the feelings of the parents are taking priority. Frankly, all parents should have equal rights, regardless of their sexuality. This business though of women who transition to men wanting to be identified on the birth cert as the father or people wanting 2 daddies or 2 mothers listed as birth parents feels like taking the piss.


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    #20
    BalcombeSt4
    Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    Fair play, I support equal rights for LGBT people


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    #21
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    RiseToMe wrote: »
    To quote the current situation with regards to heterosexual couples in donor assisted reproduction: by

    "At present, there is a legal presumption that the mothers husband is the father of a donor-conceived child even if the husband has no biological connection to the child"

    So no, the law is not infact that the biological father is to be named. In fact, it is quite the opposite.
    There is a presumption of paternity in the case of marriage, which can be rebutted.

    Bear in mind also that children are generally naturally conceived, and that's what the law is chiefly regulating. And the law certainly does mean biological parents are named.

    That's why this was wrong

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gp-who-ran-illegal-adoptions-was-a-heroine-says-daughter-28955095.html

    "Her adoptive parents – who both died last year – were wrongly recorded as being her birth parents on her birth certificate."


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    #22
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    BalcombeSt4 wrote: »
    Fair play, I support equal rights for LGBT people
    We all support equal rights.

    We may disagree on what that means.


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    #23
    andala
    Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭andala


    I don't really see a problem here, just amend the birth certificate to reflect both legal and biological circumstances of birth, i.e

    Paddy O'Reilly
    biological mother Tara O'Reilly
    biological father donor number 1234567
    legal guardians Tara O'Reilly and John Smith

    also, keep egg/sperm donors anonymous but have a database with numbers. The database can have donors' info about illnesses, education, hair colour etc as well as their consent (or lack of thereof) to be contacted.


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    #24
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,017 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Balf wrote: »
    We all support equal rights.

    We may disagree on what that means.

    How so? We all know what equality means, we all know what rights are.

    Unless you're suggesting we disagree on who actually has them?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #25
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    How so? We all know what equality means, we all know what rights are.

    Unless you're suggesting we disagree on who actually has them?
    I suspect you know the problem starts once you move beyond vague generalities.


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    #26
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,017 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Balf wrote: »
    I suspect you know the problem starts once you move beyond vague generalities.

    I suggest you actually try answering questions asked if you're going to hit the reply button.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #27
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    I suggest you actually try answering questions asked if you're going to hit the reply button.
    Already done.


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    #28
    Cee-Jay-Cee
    Registered Users Posts: 12,235 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    "Regulations to allow same sex parents register both their names on their child's birth cert to be signed today"

    is the headline from the first link in the OP

    Is there a loophole here in that the child will not actually be ‘their’ child in one of the ‘parents’ case?


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    #29
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    andala wrote: »
    also, keep egg/sperm donors anonymous but have a database with numbers. The database can have donors' info about illnesses, education, hair colour etc as well as their consent (or lack of thereof) to be contacted.

    Have to say I personally disapprove of this as well, but that's just me. The idea of denying a child the right to know who they truly are and where their blood comes from just feels wrong on every level to me, and in my view that concern should take absolute priority over all others. Genetic heritage is fairly fundamental to the whole concept of being a living thing, and since humans are capable of contemplating the significance of that, it feels utterly cruel to mislead or deny anybody over what their own genetic heritage is.


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    #30
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,017 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Balf wrote: »
    Already done.

    Grand, so you don't believe in equal rights then. Conversation over.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #31
    blueshade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 428 ✭✭blueshade


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Grand, so you don't believe in equal rights then. Conversation over.

    Where are the rights of the child in this? A birth cert should list the names of birth parents, in the case of a donor then a different arrangement should be made. All parents should have equal rights with their children but makey uppey nonsense on birth certs is not in the interests of the child, it's nothing more than pandering to ''feelz''. The child is getting lost in this while the couples make it all about themselves.


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