How did it all come to this? AGS charging NTA to enforce bus gate

magicbastarder · 21-06-2020 9:40pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There is also the bizarre issue that the NTA is another public body, so this public money slushing around between public bodies.

maybe they should have put it out to tender... les gendarmes policing traffic in dublin is an intriguing concept.

RobbieMD · 21-06-2020 10:34pm

And if you’re the FAI, then you don’t even pay the €360k owed.

Del2005 · 22-06-2020 12:31am

Peregrine wrote: »

I'd rather they enforced all laws. They don't seem to be doing anything. You can ask what Garda Traffic Corps are actually doing with their resources, why there aren't more resources and question the implications of a deal to pay for extra overtime like I am or you can give up and say "If they start enforcing our laws, I'd rather they enforced these ones over those".

And tens of thousands of people go through College Green every day on buses, Luas and on a bike that are affected by illegal usage. Everytime you say "a few people", it looks like either don't know College Green or you're playing it down on purpose. Neither looks good on you.

I agree that they should be enforcing all our laws, but if we have to chose between putting a Garda at College Green or outside a school I'll pick the school all the time.

The reason I say a few people is because there are 5m people being let down by the lack of enforcement of our laws so again I'd rather see the Gardai going after anti social behaviour or serious traffic offences than people blocking a junction. I would also hope that if we sort out the serious offences then the minor ones will go away or if not then allocate resources.

Seth Brundle · 22-06-2020 1:06am

Putting a garda outside a school will have very limited effect. Maybe 100 people will be aware if their presence and will adjust their behaviour by not parking like an asshole. Their dodgy parking would have otherwise inconvenienced maybe 50-100 people, at most (if at all). Their selfish parking would have probably made it more dangerous for kids going to school, as does any parking outside a school. Depending on where the school is, there may have been nobody put out at all!
Putting that same garda in college green would have helped prevent the breaking of about one traffic violation per minute which would otherwise lead to delays for hundreds if not thousands of people.
So in terms of resource allocation, you'd go with the school option?

As for sorting out the serious offences and then the minor ones go away, has that strategy worked yet?
Have drivers stopped speeding?
Is using a mobile phone not a serious offence because its barely enforced, if at all ?
The reality is that most driving offences are allowed because politically there's no desire.to stop the bad behaviour. We've encouraged a cultured victim blaming and accepting poor standards of driving. We recently had some TDs calling for some drivers to be allowed to have a few drinks and drive home.
The gardai haven't the resources to police everything but at the same time, they will not relinquish the control by allowing some automation of policing and unfortunately our TDs don't have the balls to change that.

magicbastarder · 22-06-2020 9:29am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The reality is that most driving offences are allowed because politically there's no desire to stop the bad behaviour.

i think there was some recent (maybe about six months ago) comms from the gardai or department, referring to the low death rate on the roads, with a barely concealed 'job done' message.

ED E · 22-06-2020 9:43am

magicbastarder wrote: »

maybe they should have put it out to tender... les gendarmes policing traffic in dublin is an intriguing concept.

DSPS are almost worse than the Gardai, a hard one to beat.

Del2005 · 22-06-2020 10:26am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Putting a garda outside a school will have very limited effect. Maybe 100 people will be aware if their presence and will adjust their behaviour by not parking like an asshole. Their dodgy parking would have otherwise inconvenienced maybe 50-100 people, at most (if at all). Their selfish parking would have probably made it more dangerous for kids going to school, as does any parking outside a school. Depending on where the school is, there may have been nobody put out at all!
Putting that same garda in college green would have helped prevent the breaking of about one traffic violation per minute which would otherwise lead to delays for hundreds if not thousands of people.
So in terms of resource allocation, you'd go with the school option?

As for sorting out the serious offences and then the minor ones go away, has that strategy worked yet?
Have drivers stopped speeding?
Is using a mobile phone not a serious offence because its barely enforced, if at all ?
The reality is that most driving offences are allowed because politically there's no desire.to stop the bad behaviour. We've encouraged a cultured victim blaming and accepting poor standards of driving. We recently had some TDs calling for some drivers to be allowed to have a few drinks and drive home.
The gardai haven't the resources to police everything but at the same time, they will not relinquish the control by allowing some automation of policing and unfortunately our TDs don't have the balls to change that.

They don't go to the same school every day. It's also to reduce speeding in estates and to have a visible police presence on roads where we never see them. Put a Garda anywhere and they can stop traffic offences every minute.

A fatal RTC costs €3m, a series RTC costs several hundred thousand Euro. A tram delayed at college Green will affect 200 hundred people and cost maybe €50k, an incident on the M50 will cost more and effect more people.

Look at the USA. Over there no one will pass a school bus, could you imagine that here?, and everyone stops at stop signs because the police activity enforce them, but they have a serious DUI problem because of their law. We don't have a big a DUI problem but our other laws are ignored.

I'm not saying not to put a Garda at the bus gate I'm saying that sitting one there 24/7 when we have traffic offences on all our roads is stupid.

bk · 22-06-2020 11:26am

It really is very simple, since they have no interest in enforcing them, take the powers off the Gardai and give them to the NTA.

I'm aware that the NTA already requested this, but the powers that be denied them. But it is the height of stupidity.

Automated enforcement cameras are a very simple and powerful tool for urban design, yet it is completely denied to our city planners.

Also I'd point out that lots of countries have a "city police" force, who are basically traffic wardens with extra powers to direct traffic, issue fines, etc.

I think we really suffer from having just one police force in this country, whose only interest seems to be keeping all the power and directing as much available funds into their own wages.

MOH · 22-06-2020 5:13pm

This thread is a perfect microcosm of the forum.
In 40 posts, the issue has been the fault of:
- Cyclists
- Motorists
- Taxi drivers
- the Gardai
- The NTA
- Dublin city council
- The FAI

I realise this post isn't particularly constructive either, but it just seems like lots of threads end up in an endless cycle of passing the blame bucket trying to blame one particular pigeon-holed group for whatever the issue is.

Charles Babbage · 22-06-2020 7:09pm

bk wrote: »

It really is very simple, since they have no interest in enforcing them, take the powers off the Gardai and give them to the NTA.

I'm aware that the NTA already requested this, but the powers that be denied them. But it is the height of stupidity.

Automated enforcement cameras are a very simple and powerful tool for urban design, yet it is completely denied to our city planners.

Also I'd point out that lots of countries have a "city police" force, who are basically traffic wardens with extra powers to direct traffic, issue fines, etc.

I think we really suffer from having just one police force in this country, whose only interest seems to be keeping all the power and directing as much available funds into their own wages.

Automated cameras would seem a less dramatic option than starting another police force, although the traffic warden concept is a useful one. Such cameras could do good work at other locations too and they really are a no brainer.

AndrewJRenko · 22-06-2020 7:43pm

MOH wrote: »

This thread is a perfect microcosm of the forum.
In 40 posts, the issue has been the fault of:
- Cyclists
- Motorists
- Taxi drivers
- the Gardai
- The NTA
- Dublin city council
- The FAI

I realise this post isn't particularly constructive either, but it just seems like lots of threads end up in an endless cycle of passing the blame bucket trying to blame one particular pigeon-holed group for whatever the issue is.

That's what happens when you have a bunch of amateurs (myself included) thinking that they know the solution.

LeinsterDub · 22-06-2020 8:06pm

MOH wrote: »

This thread is a perfect microcosm of the forum.
In 40 posts, the issue has been the fault of:
- Cyclists
- Motorists
- Taxi drivers
- the Gardai
- The NTA
- Dublin city council
- The FAI

I realise this post isn't particularly constructive either, but it just seems like lots of threads end up in an endless cycle of passing the blame bucket trying to blame one particular pigeon-holed group for whatever the issue is.

At the end of the day the buck for illegal activity on the roads stops with AGS

tampopo · 25-06-2020 9:45pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i do recall that when the council changed the traffic flow along the quays, the response from the gardai was pretty much 'it's not our job to police this'. and i'm not parodying their response, unless my memory is playing tricks.

They did say that. They tweeted 'we don't do traffic enforcement'

afatbollix · 27-06-2020 12:49pm

Its all down to money. If they made it that the AGS got the money from the fines there would be cameras on every bus lane and red light in the country but at the moment it goes to the government and that's why we have a private company with speed camera vans.

In the UK the speed cameras & red light (Saftey) cameras go to the local police force and the councils have cameras for bus lanes, yellow box, no right turns etc and they get to keep the money. They do have a problem with too many cameras tho...

Since they can't work out who should police this why cant the private company with vans buy a few static cameras and put them up aorund the place?

27-06-2020 1:41pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

If I build a new house, should I have to pay the gardai to potentially police a property they did not have to police before?

If you want a dedicated Garda protecting just your house, yes.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

At the end of the day the buck for illegal activity on the roads stops with AGS[/quote

Gardai include this area and it's included in the overall policing plan for traffic engorgement. It does not get it's own dedicated Garda because as said, there's simple not enough Gardai to go around. That's the issue at play here. Not that Gardai wouldn't do it, that the nta wanted more dedication to it than the Gardai were willing to give as doing so took the Garda away from other jobs.

People don't seem to realise how low Garda numbers are. Compare them across the eu, very low and with less civilian staff as well.

LeinsterDub · 27-06-2020 3:16pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Gardai include this area and it's included in the overall policing plan for traffic engorgement. It does not get it's own dedicated Garda because as said, there's simple not enough Gardai to go around. That's the issue at play here. Not that Gardai wouldn't do it, that the nta wanted more dedication to it than the Gardai were willing to give as doing so took the Garda away from other jobs.

People don't seem to realise how low Garda numbers are. Compare them across the eu, very low and with less civilian staff as well.

This doesn't hold water because AGS could have easily operated an ANPR camera here and refused to

magicbastarder · 27-06-2020 3:23pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

If you want a dedicated Garda protecting just your house, yes.

People don't seem to realise how low Garda numbers are. Compare them across the eu, very low and with less civilian staff as well.

there is no dedicated 'mb house protection unit' in the gardai, but there is a dedicated RPU, so i don't agree with that analogy.

and yes, i think they dropped from 1300 at the peak to about 750 now. but they have explicitly stated that roads policing should not be prioritised (i'll see if i can find the link). so don't expect anything to change soon, even if overall garda numbers start to recover.

27-06-2020 3:56pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

there is no dedicated 'mb house protection unit' in the gardai, but there is a dedicated RPU, so i don't agree with that analogy.

and yes, i think they dropped from 1300 at the peak to about 750 now. but they have explicitly stated that roads policing should not be prioritised (i'll see if i can find the link). so don't expect anything to change soon, even if overall garda numbers start to recover.

Actually there is a dedicated burglary unit in each area and again, if you want one protecting just your house, you would be told to jog on. So yes, it's accurate. They wanted a Garda just for this one area. That was the issue.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

This doesn't hold water because AGS could have easily operated an ANPR camera here and refused to

Ags don't use anpr cameras in that manner at all. They are expensive to buy and expensive to maintain with less than half the rpu vehicles having one to begin with. They are only inside cars, not static unless they have installed then in speed Vans recently. Why would Gardai invest in such a system for one isolated area? The budget is paper thin as it is.

To bring it back to the house scenario which someone else raised, is it the Gardai that pay for your house alarm?

27-06-2020 4:03pm

bk wrote: »

It really is very simple, since they have no interest in enforcing them, take the powers off the Gardai and give them to the NTA.

I'm aware that the NTA already requested this, but the powers that be denied them. But it is the height of stupidity.

Automated enforcement cameras are a very simple and powerful tool for urban design, yet it is completely denied to our city planners.

Also I'd point out that lots of countries have a "city police" force, who are basically traffic wardens with extra powers to direct traffic, issue fines, etc.

I think we really suffer from having just one police force in this country, whose only interest seems to be keeping all the power and directing as much available funds into their own wages.

Those same police forces are not well respected in general and are paid for by the local council's.

What you are suggesting is that we introduce a 'fingal police' and so on and pay them from the county council budget. They would then only enforce the co co bye laws and would need to call Gardai to deal with actual crimes.

That's pretty much what we have in the airports and ports now.

magicbastarder · 27-06-2020 4:59pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

To bring it back to the house scenario which someone else raised, is it the Gardai that pay for your house alarm?

i didn't realise that house alarms detect and capture housebreakers. i must look further into the technology.

the resistance to static ANPR cameras at problem junctions is strange. surely it's a better use of resources than scheduling gardai to stand at the junction doing the same?

Peregrine · 27-06-2020 5:13pm

Well, it looks like ANPR camera enforcement powers for the NTA are on the way. NTA believes camera enforcement to be vital for BusConnects, has zero confidence in the Guards and requested legislative amendments.

27-06-2020 5:51pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i didn't realise that house alarms detect and capture housebreakers. i must look further into the technology.

the resistance to static ANPR cameras at problem junctions is strange. surely it's a better use of resources than scheduling gardai to stand at the junction doing the same?

You didn't realise house alarms detected break-ins? What did you think they did? You also didn't realise there's burglary units. Today's a school day indeed.

It is a better method, but it's not within the Garda budget.

27-06-2020 5:52pm

Peregrine wrote: »

Well, it looks like ANPR camera enforcement powers for the NTA are on the way. NTA believes camera enforcement to be vital for BusConnects, has zero confidence in the Guards and requested legislative amendments.

Good. They can install and replace them from their own budget and everyone's happy

magicbastarder · 27-06-2020 6:39pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You didn't realise house alarms detected break-ins?

do you want me to explain what the word 'and' means, or did you see and understand it, but choose to ignore it?

magicbastarder · 27-06-2020 6:40pm

Peregrine wrote: »

Well, it looks like ANPR camera enforcement powers for the NTA are on the way. NTA believes camera enforcement to be vital for BusConnects, has zero confidence in the Guards and requested legislative amendments.

only in the context of busconnects? hopefully they'll be used on a wider basis.

Peregrine · 27-06-2020 8:28pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Good. They can install and replace them from their own budget and everyone's happy

Generally, I'm not very happy when the national police force ignores aspects of policing for so long that another state agency has to ask for that policing power. It's probably for the best but it shouldn't have happened like this.

If the cost of the cameras was the issue, AGS wouldn't have just stopped issuing fines when DCC installed a red light camera at Blackhall Place.

magicbastarder wrote: »

only in the context of busconnects? hopefully they'll be used on a wider basis.

No, more broadly nationally. BusConnects was the justification. You'd assume they'd want to use them at Luas junctions too, for starters.

27-06-2020 9:34pm

Peregrine wrote: »

Generally, I'm not very happy when the national police force ignores aspects of policing for so long that another state agency has to ask for that policing power. It's probably for the best but it shouldn't have happened like this.

If the cost of the cameras was the issue, AGS wouldn't have just stopped issuing fines when DCC installed a red light camera at Blackhall Place.

No, more broadly nationally. BusConnects was the justification. You'd assume they'd want to use them at Luas junctions too, for starters.

Again, AGS do not use anpr cameras in this way. Do I need to say it a third time?

Should I also repeat the comment about manpower seeing as that's ignored as well?

How about pointing out that the Garda budget is tight, putting a camera in for this would not only change Garda policy but also remove a camera from a traffic car. A bad move.

Jesus, can I come live in your utopia where budgets don't matter and we can just do everything?

magicbastarder · 27-06-2020 10:03pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

putting a camera in for this would not only change Garda policy but also remove a camera from a traffic car.

they would use the same cameras mounted on the dash in a car as they would fixed to a pole or what have you, on a junction?

Peregrine · 27-06-2020 10:43pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Again, AGS do not use anpr cameras in this way. Do I need to say it a third time?

Should I also repeat the comment about manpower seeing as that's ignored as well?

How about pointing out that the Garda budget is tight, putting a camera in for this would not only change Garda policy but also remove a camera from a traffic car. A bad move.

Jesus, can I come live in your utopia where budgets don't matter and we can just do everything?

I know well enough that they don't use it this way. That's the problem. Say it a million times but 'We do not use them this way' and 'against Garda policy' is neither an explanation or an excuse for not carrying out their responsibility. Change the policy and enter the 21st century.

You must have missed the part where DCC installed the red light camera and offered to install bus lane cameras. Do you think DCC went and nicked them from Garda cars? The cost of the cameras does not have to be borne by AGS. Now that we've established it's not the cost of the cameras that is the problem, is lack of manpower your final answer?

Okay. Now, what steps have the Gardaí taken to set up a system where the manpower costs are shared? Has AGS, in light of their lack of manpower and 'policy' of not using cameras to police road traffic offences, requested changes in legislation that allows civil enforcement to take the stress off them? Since the laws they're supposed to enforce are brazenly being broken on the roads, surely they would have taken some steps to reach out to the Department of Transport to change legislation to allow civil enforcement? I know for a fact that they haven't. Was their budget too tight to reach out and suggest alternatives? They would have taken some steps to reach out to the local authorities to come up with a joint enforcement proposal, surely?

Even without civil enforcement, a garda enforcing road traffic laws through cameras is much much more efficient. It doesn't have to be new resources, it can be a reassignment of the small number of existing resources that are supposed to police red lights, illegal parking, bus lanes etc. to vastly increase efficiency. 1 garda enforcing through cameras could free up several gardaí in patrol cars. Do you think speed cameras caused an increase in the number of guards needed to enforce speed limits or something (given a fixed number of roads)? No, the efficiency went up. The number of gardaí assigned to roads policing has gone up significantly in recent years. There were a 100 odd due to be transferred to roads policing a this year. Surely, at some stage they would have thought "If we put these 100 roads policing gardaí behind cameras, we could actually enforce the roads much more effectively? Nope. They're going straight into decades old policing methods.

My point is not just that they're not doing it, it's that they're ignoring it, and have taken zero steps to make sure someone is enforcing it. My point is that they never cared. And I find that unacceptable. You can settle for that level of apathy in policing if you want but I won't.

magicbastarder · 27-06-2020 11:35pm

the gardai basically just don't care. the road safety issue is essentially bottom of the agenda, the authorities point to historically low deaths on the road and decide 'job done, what more can we do' as if road fatalities are the be all and end all of how we measure road safety and behaviour.

How did it all come to this? AGS charging NTA to enforce bus gate

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